Over the years since I have been a Christian I have had many people try to persuade me that the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.
For those that don’t know what that means, I’ll offer a brief explanation. Among Christians that hold that the Bible accurately records the past and has predicted and continues to predict the future (I happen to be one of those). There are a majority of believers that hold to the idea that at some point in the future Jesus is going to return to the Earth to judge the world and establish His rule over the Earth for a thousand years. In addition to this belief there is also another belief that prior to His return, God is going to bring terrible judgment upon the world in a similar way that He judged the Egyptians during the time of Moses in the book of Exodus. This period of judgement is believed to last for a total of 7 years before Jesus actually returns, and this 7 year period is often referred to as the Tribulation or Great Tribulation. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a belief that prior to this Tribulation, true Christians that are alive at that time will be unpredictably and instantaneously caught up from the Earth by God, their bodies transformed into immortal bodies and that during the 7 years of judgement and suffering on Earth, Christians will be in Heaven being spiritually married to Jesus and will be enjoying a 7 year feast.
It is the teaching that Christians will not be present during the Tribulation that I take issue with. When dealing with this subject I will be appealing to the Bible to make my case. Some of the examples will be parallel to other stories or types from scripture and others are declarative statements on the subject. All will demonstrate the the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is built upon weak presuppositions that can easily be refuted.
Reason 1:
One of the main arguments that I have heard to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that a loving God would not allow His children to suffer through such a difficult time.
This argument is foolish. There are numerous examples in both the Old and New Testaments of people that suffered to the glory of God as testimony to those who have gone before and those who will come after us. I think of Job who through no fault of his own suffered terribly while his “friends” rather than showing him sympathy falsely said that Job was suffering for the wrongs he had committed. But in the end he was vindicated and God blessed him greatly. Job did not know it but it was actually God who was vindicated and Satan was defeated.
The book of Hebrews gives a list of heroes from the Old Testament that describes how they endured suffering by faith. These were given as examples to us.
But lets move to the New Testament. Did the Father love Jesus? Of course He did, but Jesus was crucified and then raised to glory. John the Baptist, beheaded. Steven, stoned to death. The Apostles, stoned, imprisoned, tortured, destitute, murdered.
The early Church was persecuted beyond measure. Parents were made to watch their children be murdered right in front them unless they renounced their faith in Jesus. They were covered in pitch, tied to poles and set on fire to entertain the Roman rulers. They were fed alive to lions and bears in front of cheering crowds. They hid in burial tunnels beneath the city of Rome.
And history is replete with these examples to this very day. If you are raised a Muslim in a Muslim country and become a Christian, often you will be put to death. The Communists have murdered countless Christians because they dare to believe that God is greater than the State.
So let me ask you, does God not love those who have suffered for His Name? That is a rhetorical question. Of course He does. So to say that God will exempt Christians from suffering because we are His Bride is not consistent with the rest of the Bible. Instead we should say as Job did, “Though He slay me, yet will I hope in Him”
Reason 2:
Exodus: A parallel to the coming of God’s Judgement and Deliverance. Moses himself said that God was going to send someone after him that was like him, speaking of Jesus. Pharaoh held God’s people in slavery for generations but the time came when God said enough, I will judge those who oppressed My People. He sent Moses to stand before Pharaoh telling him to repent, and each time Pharaoh ultimately refused. So God sent terrible plagues on the land of Egypt, very similar to the plagues mentioned in the book of Revelation. In Exodus God made a distinction between His people and the people of Egypt when it came to how the plagues affected them, but still they remained in Egypt as God’s judgement rained down.
It was after the plagues and judgments that God caught up His people and took them out of Egypt, but only those who were covered by the blood of the Passover lamb. When Pharaoh pursued them God Himself took Pharaoh and his army and drowned them in the depths of the sea. In the same way, the book of Revelation states that after God’s judgement and deliverance he binds Satan for a thousand years casting him into the abyss. Sound familiar? It was after that that God literally dwelt in the midst of his people. In the same way when we are caught up to be with God we shall always be with Him. These are the things Paul said we should comfort one another with. When do we need comfort? When we are suffering.
Reason 3:
The Bible explicitly states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. After this resurrection we are told that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what we refer to as the rapture. But when does the resurrection take place? The scripture clearly answers this question. At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues. I have dealt with this topic in depth in other posts.
Why Am I Writing This?
It’s not because I want to pick a fight. Pre-Tribulationism is a potentially dangerous false teaching. Why? Because it exempts us from suffering and at the same time teaches that a God of love will not allow His children to suffer. As we draw nearer to the return of Jesus our faith must be able to withstand whatever may come because we are told that many will fall away from the faith. Jesus even said “When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the Earth?” May He not say that of us. Consider our brethren in lands hostile to the Gospel and pray that we will have the fortitude to stand with them when our time of testing comes. Amen.
Figuratively speaking: “We’re all to be “tried by fire”… Literally speaking: “Judgment begins with The Household of God:” … aka: The 7 Trumpet Judgements.
So, if “The dead in Christ shall (must) rise FIRST” why should anyone accept FIRST to be interpreted any differently?
And if we won’t “PREVENT (means PRECEDE) believers who sleep in their graves” what about those who die in the last 7 years?
Also, when the Rapture takes place, it’s clearly stated it will be like the day Noah’s Ark’s Door closed and everyone “Left Behind” perished!
Then Revelation 20:5 (blessed if we keep it and punished if we attempt to change its meaning) reveals when the FIRST RESURRECTION takes place.
Finally, how can the 1st RAPTURE Resurrection + the 2nd WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT Resurrection = the 3 Resurrections A PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE requires?
The Holy Scriptures CLEARLY IMPLY that ALL believers who “are alive and REMAIN (means SURVIVE)” and “endure until the end” shall be LAST TO ESCAPE!
Jesus promised Spirit Filled-Spirit Led believers could be empowered to do even GREATER WORKS than He did after He ascended… yet for His sake alone!
And when Christ receives all praise and accolades as a result of His unbridled use of our vessel, He gladly supplies all of our needs/desires as He sees fit.
For in reality, The Greater Works He promised will only equip mature believers who discerningly occupy during “lying signs, wonders and strong delusion!
Hosea 4:6 > 1 John 2:27 > Zechariah 4:6 > 2 Timothy 2:15 > Proverbs 3:5-6 > Jeremiah 29:13 > 1 Chronicles 28:9 > Deuteronomy 4:29 > 2 Timothy 3:16-17
It is high time believers start being challenged, not intimidated, by demonic possession which generally blindsides, empowers, and usurps others free-will.
For while all “Born Again” Christians possess God’s Indwelling Holy Spirit, few are earnestly consciously pleading for Him to overshadow and possess them.
Our Heavenly Father has a ‘PERFECT WILL’ for every one of us… yet most of us primarily operate in God’s ‘PERMISSIVE WILL’… even “Spiritual Narcissism!”
Jesus is The Only “GOOD SHEPHERD” (John 10:10-14). He also stated, “He and Our Heavenly Father are ONE!” So, PSALM 23 should be a believer’s motto!
And all Pastor’s, Evangelists, Teacher’s, Lay Students, should all be stiving to be a SHEEPDOG who warns folks about what the wolf is up to (Ezekial 33:6).
We all must learn to Admonish, Exhort, Edify and Challenge others to earnestly hunger for God’s Holy Spirit to lead them each at his or her personal level.
We’re not here to impress others, nor to LORD over or intimidate others… yet we’re all here to exemplify the faith, hope, peace and joy available as a gift.
And the greatest evidence of spiritual maturity is to be equipped to face this world’s reality (by Christ’s strength) no matter how dire the circumstances!
You are close. 1 Thess. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath…. 1 Thess. 1:10 …, even Jesus which delivered us from the wrat to come. Tribulation s man made, the first 3.5 years. God’s wrath begins in Rev. 6:12,13,14 all supernatural events, i.e. God made; wrath. At the sametime, we are raptured. Rev. 7 speaks of 144,000 witnesses. God will not leave the eart without a witness. In verse 9 ch.7 you see the great multitude. Explained in verse 14 as coming out of great tribulation. At the same timeyou will see the sequence of events beginning in Mt. 24:15 thru 41. Note29 which corresponds to Rev. 6:12,13. Mt. 24:30,31 corresponds to Thess. 4: 16,17; the Lord coming in the air, sending his angels to gather with the sound of a trumpet. (There is no trumpet when He returns in Rev. 19:11-16) Back to Mt.24:40,41 ( speaks clearly of a rapture event.) Rev. 7:14 ..camr out of great tribulation” great tribulation is mentioned by Jesus in Mt24:21 between the abomination of desolation and the signs in the sun moon and stars vs. 30 then the rapture in verse 30,31. Tribulation, great tribulation, the anti christ in the temple, all before the supernatural wrath of God begins in Rev. 6:12.at that moment John saw this event the rapture occurs, (an explanation for mutitudes of dead bodies, which will stay here because wr get new bodies 1 Cor. 15:44). We are in the first 3.5 years. Note Daniel 9:27 this covenant was signed Oct. 2025 with Israel, Hamas, Qatar, and Turkey and the US. There is no metion I can find in Mediaof the timeframe, but there certainly is one. Please excuse any typos, idid this on my phone.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant … who is the he? Matthew Henry commentary says it’s the Messiah and John Gills commentary says it’s the Antichrist. I don’t have an answer, but Matthew Henry has a lot of credibility.
We know for sure that the pre-Trib Rapture is extra-Biblical nonsense, as Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 state – in Jesus’ own words, mind you – that the Rapture occurs post-Trib. The Evangelicals conveniently ignore these clear Bible texts as, they don’t fit their narrative. The problem here involves conceptual semantics – how we utilize words to convey complex concepts. The Evangelicals misuse the word Tribulation to convey an erroneous conceptual meaning. The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the self-same time period as most evangelicals assert. Matthew 24:29-31 ties directly into Revelation Chapter 8, which carries Jesus’ narrative onward to its conclusion. Biblically, the correct progression is Tribulation – Rapture – Wrath, just as Jesus implied. The Church will be removed before the Wrath begins.
Very good article debunking the pre-tribulation rapture ideology–you made a lot of good points! I, too, hold strongly to the belief that the rapture will take place after the Great Tribulation. In fact, I recently wrote an article proving this very thing while also detailing the order of end-time events. Additionally, it also includes some of the same points you made here.
Recently I undertook a project to set the 1844 10th edition Gadsby Hymns to music scores used in 19th century and before. (This work is being uploaded to the MuseScore website if you are interested in singing these hymns) . One unexpected realization is the position this website embraces. So I decided to reject the pre-tribulation rapture conviction that I held for 1/2 a century.
Concurrently the hymn project caused me to think about repentance. I’ve concluded through personal experience that belief in pre-tribulation rapture keeps people from obeying Jesus’ command to repent.
Matthew 12:41 (KJV)
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Why is it that God’s word is preached in church were pre-tribulation rapture is part of statement of faith but almost no one repents Sunday after Sunday? Jesus commanded and expects repentance. It has been my personal experience that once I recently rejected my conviction in pre-tribulation rapture my conviction about need to repent replaced it almost immediately.
One of the products from the hymn project is the Great Commission Musical. It is an original work. It provides a musical snapshot of how Christians viewed the gospel of grace and repentance 200 years ago. If you are interested you can view it at:
https://musescore.com/user/73470910/scores/16139317
If you want to explore topic of repentance further there is a good message on repentance by Charles Spurgeon: tinysa.com/sermon/91223331185941
Thanks for sharing. However, I warn the reader that Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist. I believe Calvinism to be just as destructive to the faith as Pre-tribulationism, if not more destructive. Calvinists view repentance as either a work that competes with the work of Christ, or that repentance comes spontaneously without volition.
Good warning. Great website. It’s wonderful to find a few like-minded believers. Thanks
I respect absolutely every humbug. It’s up to you, it’s up to everyone.
I really don’t understand why the living ones, pertaining to the church have to suffer the tribulation but the dead ones, pertaining to the church, too, escape the horors of the tribulation.
It’s up to you. But it’s really a humbug. Study Arnold Fruchtenbaum and talk afterwards.
I’m not sure why you think the dead ones pertain to the church too.
Revelation 3:14-16 (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
I am aware that most people will not agree with this statement but It seems to me that those who are part of Laodicean church are rejected by Jesus and not raptured.
The only cure that Jesus gives to be part of church for the church mentioned here is to be zealous to repent.
Is there an area of study you recommend I focus on? I found 50 different studies to look at for the individual mentioned – it would take me months to try and absorb everything available to study. Definitely interesting topics – I’d go on many rabbit trails.
According to my dictionary, a humbug is an imposition. Is that what you mean by the way you use the word?
Sorry to say but your reasons utter a lot of NONSENSE.
REASON 1. If the leaving ones in the time of tribulation have to suffer why the dead ones escaped the suffering because of death. Both the leaving and the dead belong to the church. Why only the leaving should suffer. Then God is a respecter of persons and not a righteous Judge.
REASON 2. The plages of Egypt were upon the Egyptians not upon the people of God in Goshen.
REASON 3. Nowhere is written that the dead will rise at the end of the tribulation and be caught up to heaven.
Sorry, but I cannot swallow these NONSENSE.
The dead in Christ will rise after the Tribulation, before any Rapture can happen. The Resurrection is first (protos) as 1.Thess 4:16 says. Together we are raptured, that describes the timing of the Rapture. BTW, the coming of the LORD and the Rapture are for His only coming at the last trump after, not before the Tribulation (1.Cor 15:23+24,51+52; Rev 10:6+7). Furthermore, the timing can be known by Rev 20:6, 1000 years before the end of the Millennium. This is the only timing, not in part as Pretrib says, but we ALL, that includes our brothers out of Tribulation, who are changed and go in the Rapture to Heaven as part of His bride.
Just curious – has the thought occurred to anyone else that the 70th week of Daniel just began (considering all the things going on in the world)? Could the Daniel 9:27 covenant be UN resolution 1107? If this is in fact the case, Jesus will be setting up his 1000 year reign in fall 2031. It’s exciting to me at least to think we are on verge of bible prophecy unfolding in real time. Anyways, just curious if anyone else is thinking on the same page.
Elijah must come first. Our calendar is off about 7 years, so that should be 2027 (2000 years since Jesus last left) Assuming Donald is the last Trump, he may not even finish his 2nd term. Elijah must come first to clean things up enough that Jesus doesn’t curse creation and force a reboot. If Jesus showed up now there would not be enough rocks to crawl up under. Trump’s name says what he is. Biden is b’Dan, “here comes Dan” Dan is the judge of Israel. Ron DeSantis name means King of the Saints. Kristi Noem “Christ know Him” In prophetic times like these God makes it easy to track the players. Barack Obama “baraq is lightning” u bama is “from a high place.” Jesus said he saw Satan fall like baraq u bama.
It is so very clear that there will NOT be a pre-trib rapture. Read the bible and pray for understanding.
May all of God’s children dwell safely with him eternally. Let us reason together as one now. Being a Great Grandmother many times over I will endeavor to share this in my laymen’s terms. I have studied this for a while now. My mother, like her mother, like her mother and so forth many hundreds of years past have always laid by and stored. (Root cellars, Salted Meat, cheese, honey) Why? Bible scriptures, and yes because of the unknown seasons in the coming years, or different rulers of the land not providing for their needs, for wars, or the premature death of a family member. For many generations, as, we came from Christian roots. The way we were raised was to learn the lesson in Matthew from Jesus himself.
Matthew 25 1-13 1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Bridegroom is Christ) (The 10 virgins are Believers)
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. (While we wait now some 2000 years. It seems like he takes, his time for all of us.) He has his reasons, I am sure.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (The time is coming near now we see he is approaching the door)
7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. (Here he comes).
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
(They did not stay stocked up. Like the 5 wise virgins did)
Now if you consider Oil represented as supplies, 50 % were able to hold on during the reign of the Anti-Christ without taking the Mark. 50% were not able and would suffer greatly, even to the point of starvation. Or giving in and taking the Beast’s Mark upon them. As they were foolish and were not prepared to wait until his return.)
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. (This is Christians telling Christians no) Go do What? Buy, how can they without taking the mark, when the real last days before his return are upon them?
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Pre-Trip? Maybe it is not a sin to have a bit put back, As Grandma used to say. “You, don’t want to get caught short.”
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (Why” they had taken the mark of the beast to buy}
13 Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Now all that said, yes, I know this could have a parallel meaning, as in keeping your soul ready for his return. But none of us knows how much we are to endure until the end.
So, Pre, Mid, or Post. What does it hurt to be overkill while we wait? Buy and stock up for 7 years. Be prepared for Post, or if you are Mid-trip then you are 3 1/2 years into your supply. Then you just left enough for those souls maybe even family you love who did not keep their supplies up to figure out what is happening and become the late believer. They just might be able to hold on long enough for his return. If nothing happens eat your food, while you rotate your shelves. If we do enjoy a pre-trip. We just left some stuff for the others. So, we play safe here planning on Post all the while ready for pre or Mid trip. May God Bless and Keep us all as his will is done. In Jesus’ name, we pray, Amen.
I find your answer interesting, but we really should be firm in our faith and be able to have a position to explain to unbelievers or baby Christians what to expect. The oil is represented as the Holy Spirit, not on tangible items.
The tribulation period begins with the 1st seal in Rev. 6:1. The rider on the first horse is the world leader spoken of by Daniel in chapter 9:27.
1. The tribulation period is for 7 years. after 3.5 years the world leader (anti christ) sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God, 2 Thess. 2:4
2. In Matthew 24 vs 15 you see the abomination of desolation (anti christ) stand in the Holy place. This is at the beginning of the tribulation. As a god he sits, as a man he stands.
3. Notice in Matthew 24 Jesus describes a time of great tribulation. Great as an adverb, not great as a name- the Great Tribulation.
4. Compare Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. To Revelation 6:12, And I beheld , when he had opened the sixth seal and, lo, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood; 13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. these are descriptions of the same event. Let scripture interpret scripture.
5. After this event in Mt. 24 and Rev. 6 is Mt. 24: 30, And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. HE comes in the clouds, not to earth.
6. At Christ’s second coming, Rev. 19:14, And the armies that were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean. Armies not angels, no trumpet. This is the second coming with the saints in white clothing.
7. After the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-13 and the same event in Matthew 24:29; Mt. 24:30 describes the rapture of the church. The entirety of everyone who has ever believed on Christ both living and dead, and described in Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and peoples, and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. In what time period did these people come out of? …Rev. 7:14…And he said to me, These are they who came out of |the great| tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. |The Great| is added by Schofield. Robes for our glorified bodies given to us at the rapture. Raptured during the tribulation period (out of).
After the sixth seal judgement, men rightly proclaimed, Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand? The time described as the great tribulation period would be more accurately described as the great day of God’s Wrath. 1 Thess. 4:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture is clear to me that we will endure the beginning of sorrows, and the tribulation up to and including the sixth seal.
I, for one, teach the Church will need to endure the Great Tribulation. I teach that we need to be overcomers to receive the rewards awarded us. I believe that If I’m wrong about teaching a pre-trib rapture, this could leave believers unprotected from heretical teachings and persecution. A weak Christian is subject to committing apostacy. Holding a pre-trib view may cause some to become lazy in their faith, assuming they will escape the Tribulation. If I’m wrong about the Church going through the Tribulation, no real harm is done. I have inspired stronger faith. We as martyrs of the Great Tribulation will be adorned in white robes. There is no need for this eschatological component to be divisive. If we are close to Jesus, we are safe regardless of how his second coming plays out.
– “Holding a pre-trib view may cause some to become lazy in their faith, assuming they will escape the Tribulation.”
That’s actualy a big problem. According to 1 Timpthy 1-2, we have to pray for kings and for all that are in authority:
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.” (1Tim 2:1-2)
Now those who believe in a pre-trib rapture don’t pray anymore for their nation because – they think – they will not be anymore on earth when the worse is coming. Some are even enjoying the bad news, thinking that their depart to heaven is closer. Some website even publishes a “rapture index”. This causes those in authority to be the more and more free to do all kinds of evils, unhindered. So if there is a tribulation coming, it can be (at least in part) because of those pre-tribbers are allowing it to come! Being unprepared, they will be the first one to fall.
“Now those who believe in a pre-trib rapture don’t pray anymore for their nation because – they think – they will not be anymore on earth when the worse is coming. ” I appreciate your insight into this. It seems difficult to intercede in this arena. It’s certainly a challenge to love our enemies, (even if they’re politicians), and understand our fight is not with flesh and blood. Will the United States stand in the gap and strongly request that our leaders seek divine wisdom? Difficult to achieve since only about 30% of churches are preaching the gospel as demonstrated by the apostles. But that’s a different discussion. Peace.
The Lord expects our No to be No and Yes to be Yes. You should have a firm understanding of the timing of His rapture, no waffling or wavering around. The Lord does take seriously false teachings. (Btw, I am pre-trib.)
1 Corinthians 15 clearly says that at the rapture, when we are changed, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY:
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (1Cor 15:51-55)
Now in this same chapter, it is WRITTEN:
“THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH” (1 Cor 15:26)
Since at the rapture, death – the lAST enemy – is destroyed, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT AN ANTICHRIST APPEARS AFTER THAT, SINCE THE LAST ENEMY HAS ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED.
Good reasoning, but it’s not really a proof against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. This is unfortunate because you are attempting to strike a blow against this heresy, and one cannot oppose this false doctrine too rigorously. I commend your zeal, but you’re not taking a few things into account:
[1] There were still be death during the Millennium. As it says in Isaiah 65:20—“There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” This speaks of the restoration of the nearly thousand year lifespans once possessed by the Antedeluvian Patriarchs.
[2] At the end of the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 says—“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” Even at the end of the Thousand Years there shall be death.
[3] The final end of Death is at verse 14—“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
All this, however, does not contradict First Corinthians. But the defeat of Death here is only in regard to those who have been resurrected at Christs’ coming. It says clearly—“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” [Revelation 20:4-6]
So even though the Antichrist appears before Christ’s Second Coming and the Rapture—yet Death is not fully destroyed until a Thousand Years later, though for the Resurrected Faithful Christian death has been defeated in full. There are things that have not yet occurred, but God still speaks of them in the past tense (as in Genesis 17:5—“…a father of many nations have I made thee” for when He determines that a thing shall be—it is as if it has already history.
What I understand is that the second death spoken of in Rev 20:14 is the ETERNAL death of the wicked:
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15)
That kind of death (the second death) hath no power for those who are saved:
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev 20:6)
It is clear that those that are in hell / lake of fire will be suffering there for eternity. They will be resurrected for eternal damnation and cannot die again in the sense that they become unconscious. It’s impossible for people in hell to suicide and become anihilated to avoid sufferance.
Earler in the Revelation 9 it is written that people “which have not the seal of God in their foreheadswill” will ” seek death, and shall not find it”:
“And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.” (Rev 9:6)
Also it is written that the second death has no power for those in Christ as we “shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev 20:6), but earler in Rev 1:6 and Rev 5:10 it is written that those in Christ are ALREADY “priests unto God” to reign with Him for the 1,000 years”:
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Rev 1:6)
“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:10)
I know there are people that say that the 1,000 years are symbolic and represent the spiritual life of the true born-again Christians, filled with the Holy Spirit and now living “as priests unto God”… it’s very confusing…
I think the reason why many people believe pre-trib is from bible college where Scofield dictionary is used that teaches this idea.
It is enough to read Mathews chapter 24 to understand end time events where Jesus gives all the answers in a nut shell.
Mathews CH.24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is written in verse 29 (immediately after the tribulation of those days) so all can see here when Jesus is retuning.
Scott—a peculiar thing I noticed, in regard to the Coming of the Lord (both First and Second) was a strange pattern.
In the First Century, Israel was looking for and expecting the coming of their Messiah. They knew He was spoken of as coming both as a Conquering King, and also as a Suffering Servant. Now it seems they beleved that both these aspects would be fulfilled during one Coming, only. But we know now that there were to be two Comings.
Now, the Scriptures speak that the Lord will return. He was already the Suffereing Servant—now He will be the Conqering King. There will be only One Second Coming. Yet, believers in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe there will be two Second Comings.
Where the Scriptures say two—the Jews said one.
Where the Scriptures say one—the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers say two.
This is so like the Children of Israel in Numbers Chapter 13 and 14—God had said they should go in and possess the land, but, hearkening to the discouraging report, they refused to go. And then God says—“Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:”
The very next day, it’s—“Lo, we be here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised:”
God says, “Go.” They say “Stay.”
Then God says, “Forget it.” They say, “We’re ready to go in now.”
Good observation.
Thank you for taking a stand for Christian suffering. Annotated Biblical Verses could better clarify your reasoning for the post tribulation view. It takes more time but makes a more convincing appeal. Keep up the good work in Christ Jesus’ name. Amen. Peace!
There is a difference between suffering and being subjected to God’s wrath during the time of JACOB’S trouble. The Harpazo or Rapture will be like the ancient Jewish betrothal and wedding with the Church the Bride of Christ. I believe Jesus will return in the air for his bride, the Church ust as the bridegroom returned for his betrothed in ancient Galilli. This is not the second coming when Jesus will return with the Church. I encourage anyone who wants to understand why pre-trib believers are convinced there will be a Rapture to watch Chuck Missler’s teaching on the Rapture. Very informative so everyone can have the scripture based reasons for our belief. Everyone is free to believe yes or no regarding the Rapture because it is not a salvation issue
Hello Debrah, I have a couple of questions for you.
1. Aside from other pretrib teachers, can you provide a definitive source for the supposed 1st-century Jewish wedding traditions that are often used as a type for pretribulationism?
2. Can you provide a good reason in the absence of scriptural proof that Jesus is returning twice? All the second-coming scriptures refer to a singular event. There are no scriptures that state explicitly or implicitly that Jesus is returning twice. If you know of any, I’d love to hear about them.
3. Since Chuck Missler taught that the gospel was revealed as a mystery in both the Great Pyramid and the Zodiac (occult sources) and that he taught that the universe is not truly physical but is in-fact a holographic projection, why would you rely on him to interpret prophecy? Look to the scriptures yourself. There is no pretrib rapture. Our gathering to Him occurs at the end.
It is clear from scripture that our relief comes at the end when Jesus returns. Further, we are warned not to think that Jesus will in some way appear before this and Paul gives us the signs to look for His soon return. Christians will be here during the reign of Antichrist.
Hi Scott just to add to your last sentence Our gathering to Him occurs at the end.
JESUS TELLS US WHEN THE RESURRECTION / RAPTURE WILL OCCUR.
HE TELLS US FOUR TIMES!
Jesus tells us clearly when this awesome Resurrection / Rapture will occur.
He gives us the answer four times in John 6.
He spells it out for us clearly, concisely, and unmistakably.
So any ignorance on our part is not due to a lack of information.
The Holy Scriptures give us plenty of data.
The real issue is simply this,
Do we want to hear the answer?
If we do not want to hear the answer then we are in a state of denial.
The next step downwards is when we do not want to hear the question.
And that will be very sad.
So let us open our eyes and our hearts and take a close look at what our Savior said.
And remember, He told us four times!
John 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”
John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.””
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Is our Lord Jesus trying to get a message to us here? If He saw fit to tell us four times in the one message that He will raise His people up at the “last day” then is it clear when that day might be? He said the ‘last day’. So a plain reading of these four verses in John chapter 6 indicates a Resurrection / Rapture of those who belong to Jesus coming at the very end of this age.
The last day is the last day. So we must conclude that the Resurrection / Rapture of the righteous dead will occur at the end of the 70th Week, the end of those final seven years of this age, and after the Great Tribulation.
Regarding the Church (those who will not have been martyred at that time) being subject to God’s wrath during the Tribulation, they wll no more suffer God’s Wrath, than did the Israelites in the Land of Goshen, though all of Egypt was subject to the Plagues. As Jesus said in John 17:15—“I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” This is the answer to those who try to use Revelation 3:10 as proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture—“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
Where in Scripture is this Jewish Wedding ceremony found? There are certainly weddings in the Bible, but there are few (if any details) of how those weddings are conducted. One would think that, if an understanding of the Jewish Wedding Ceremony was so essential a proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, that God would have made sure to include it in Scripture. And yet it is nowhere to be found.
First Thessalonians 4:16-17 says—“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
People reading this often amplify it and say that at that time, the Lord takes us to Heaven. Yet this is not what the Scriptures say. It says we shall always be with the Lord—not that we shall be with Him (at that time) in Heaven. Moreover, there is nothing in that passage that is incompatible with Matthew 24:30-31—“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Jesus gave the reason why all too many people believe in the Pre-Tribulaltion Rapture: “Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?” [Mark 12:24]. As far as Scriptural basis is concerned, we should not forget that the Devil made one of his attacks on Christ based on Psalm 91.
You say it is not a salvation issue. I know of four major beliefs about the Rapture—Pre-Tribulation; Mid-Tribulation; Pre-Wrath; and Post-Tribulation. Only one of them can be true. Three of them are a lie. Moreover, Revelation 21:27 says—“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or MAKETH A LIE: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Besides this, Second Thessalonians 2:10-12 says—“…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,”
It’s more of a salvation issue than you think.
Make sure you carefully check the context f the scriptures you quote. There are no American Sadducees. Maybe there is too much intellectualism on display here. Loving the Lord with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself are the greatest of all the commandments. In order to do that we need to search the scriptures and make sure we follow Christ and His conduct. Never perfectly is understood, but always reading scripture and praying for guidance. You, as a scholar of the bible know that God will not hold back from giving us Godly wisdom if we truly desire it and desire to walk in His ways. So those who desire to know Jesus, not just know of Him will surely inherit the kingdom of Heavan as children of our creator. If we truly know Him, then He owns us and through sanctification, we are conformed to His image, this is necessary to be in the presence of the Father. Salvation is the hope that we have through our relationship with Jesus Christ. It is doubtful that He would send a strong delusion about Himself or His truth, wouldn’t you agree? So, the delusions would be those that are conjured in reprobate minds who reject Him in the first place. He will allow them to remain in that state. If you believe that pretribulation is a lie, the instruct those you care about (which should be all your brothers and sisters if you are a Christian) to pray for a spirit of discernment. Lord Jesus confirms our prayers if we wait with patience and if we have asked in His will. To lose salvation is impossible without rejecting Him, and if we reject Him, then James says we didn’t really know Him in the first place (paraphrase). So, repentance, conversion, sanctification, singing praises when alone and with others of the same mind, placing others above us, and being thankful for “everything” are the true signs of our salvation, and proof of His love. This breeds unbreakable hope in all of us my brother. This also destroys the chance of any “faith changing” surprises because we can’t be separated from His love. Isn’t Romans 8:38-39 powerful and uplifting? If we love Him, we will be alright no matter what comes.
Blessings
I always check context. If you feel I’m not doing so, be so kind as to point it out.
No one mentioned Sadducees, American or otherwise. What is this in reference to?
Or perhaps there’s not enough intellectualism. We are encouraged to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Why then do so many Christians regard the mind as the bastard child, the black sheep of the family? But if a Christian is suspicious of the mind, it may be because he can’t defend his faith rationally. This is because he has never really taken the time to think about what he believes. He has only learned it by rote. He can only repeat what he reads in the Bible—he is incapable of saying it in his own words, because he has no real understanding of what he thinks he believes.
What you write certainly sounds good. And it seems like it’s right out of the Bible. You do seem to be saying all the right words. So might the Devil talk, as in fact he did when he quoted Palm 91 to Jesus. Personally, you sound like you’re reading this out of an online Biblical correspondence course.
Now, you say, “it is doubtful that He would send a strong delusion about Himself or His truth.” Why bring in this manipulative, “wouldn’t you agree?” Look at the Scripture, at what it exactly says and follow your own advice about “carefully checking the context of Scriptures quoted.”
Second Thessalonians 2:10-12—“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
The subject here, is “those that perish.” These is the unbelievers. How is that God sending strong delusion about Himself or His truth to believers? To those who seek His truth? Those who love Truth, love ALL truth, and not just the things of God. The Scripture is talking about people with a vested interest in the Lie. Such people God gives up. Second Timothy 3:8 says—“Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” Romans 1:28 says—“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;” Same difference. Hate the Truth, resist the Truth, and God gives you up to a reprobate mind. You become incapable any more of evaluating the truth you hate. Reprobate—void of judgment.
Well said, and I actually think we agree, but look at it from different sides of the glass brother. The lie to be believed is that there is no God, not the timing of the great tribulation. I assumed that you were referring to the pre-tribulation rapture belief as belief in a lie that might affect one’s salvation. Maybe that is not what you meant, but it sounded like a warning. However, you just said that S2nd Thes 2:10-12 was referring to unbelievers. We are in agreement. Also, what I meant by “His truth” is that the things s of God “contain all truth” because it is reality, and He i.e., God is the creator of all reality and is unchanging. We have to have a reference to base our lives on, and that reference must be objective to have any meaning. For that truth to be objective, the truth-giver must be greater than any and all that He sets the bar for. Since even He cannot swear an oath to anything or anyone greater than Himself, we see that in His interaction with Abram. (See Hebrews 3:16). Also, did you feel insulted? Your reply sounds a little irritated at my last comment. Was that because you consider my words to be out of ignorance? Are you insulted by things I said? If so, you have my sincere apology as there was no insult intended, just some of my own reasoning (which even Scott thinks is flawed) but I have to be able to reason with both of you in order for you to teach me something. If I am one who has no real understanding of what I think I believe, then I would think you would try to correct me out of and with love. My belief is that is how Christians correct each other, but maybe I was already displaying an attitude that was already combative or condescending or something. I do believe that the Lord has a soft spot in His Heart for nonintellectuals like me, and some criminals, and thieves, and alcoholics, and drug addicts and a whole host of other dummies like me :). But I am blessed the He has and is changing me. Beyond all fond emotions and temporary enchantment, which is how I started my own journey, which continues. My realization of my salvation occurred on the far side of the time I spent calling myself saved, but to me that part is a total commitment to Jesus Christ, which I believe draws us and changes us carries us to a future “forever” moment that we can’t conceive of right now, but we can hope for in what seems like a very near future to me. I am not ignorant enough to believe that I may never receive or experience persecution or just plain tough times along the way. However, I don’t think these times of rising birth pangs compare to what’s coming. I also don’t think I will have to experience the outpouring of God’s wrath that actually has a countdown or a sequence of events if you will. I think the bride of Christ will be spared that wrath, as well as the persecution experienced under the thumb of the antichrist. In any case I will keep my eyes on Him (The Christ, the second Adam) and I long to be with Him when He comes as the Lion of Judah, not looking up at Him in terror, or with relief. But if it must be so, let it be with relief my brother.
Blessings
Hello Stewart, I’m sorry to say this but your point is fallacious. Essentially what you’re saying is “I love God, therefore, I won’t be deceived.” And, “All my friends who are pretrib love God too, therefore we can’t all be deceived.”
Here are some examples of deception among believers:
I don’t think you properly understand Rom 8:38-39 in its proper context. Starting in vs 18, Paul is speaking of suffering and trials. It is these things that cannot separate us from God. But if you go back a little further, starting in vs 12, Paul lays out a condition for being being saved in the first place. “… if you are living in accord with the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live…” Rom 8:38-39 is not intended to give you the false assurance that can’t fall away. It’s dealing with external influences and pressures, not deception and volitional issues of your own heart. Also, your statement in quotes could be equally used by any group that self-identifies as “Christian” including Mormons and Catholics.
In summary, there is a no more dangerous place to be than to think you cannot be deceived based on your subjective experience. Your current presuppositions about your standing with God are faulty and based on theological dogmas rather than sound biblical exegesis.
I understand your comments, but I am not sure you understand mine. To keep it simple let me put it this way. If we are eagerly waiting
for His return, yet you have no idea of when that will be, this helps to keep believers holy, separated, searching the scriptures, searching for His will. constantly observing ourselves and asking for forgiveness if we slip. (1st John 1:9) These things should give us joy and confidence i.e., blessed assurance, but not breed complacency. We should all be at work pursuing His business according to the gifts He has given us. We all have work to do, and if we ask earnestly for guidance, we will be provided with it. For as I am sure you well know, He doesn’t need us but will use us as He sees fit. And for whatever task He sets for each of us at whatever time He chooses, He will equip us with what we need for the task. He doesn’t want our talents; He wants our availability. I also suggest you have a look at just how close what He explains to the apostles about many mansions just how close the activities are to the traditions of a Galilean wedding. The similarities are too close to ignore. I think it was explained that way because His apostles were from the reason and would get a word-picture in there minds that would show them in time exactly what He meant. I also think it is easy to mix up the context of the verses that explain the rapture and the second coming. Perhaps we can get better understanding f these things from Messianic Jews, who have an advantage on many through their studies. I also believe that all of us who are believers continue to uncover mysteries that do not contradict scripture but enhance our understanding of it. You as a believer must have changed and continue to change through sanctification, is that correct? Doesn’t our understanding increase along that path as well? I am not a teacher, but I know teachers are help to a higher standard by God. By the way, my reply was to one of your commentors. If you follow His narrative, then you will see that my reply was tailored more towards his comment. All that being said, I respect the fact that you have your conclusions about this subject. After all this is your site. I just see this a different way, and I don’t see the relationship between the time of tribulation and our salvation, which was part of a warning from the other commenter. Blessings to you and Him, and full understanding to all of us. May we meet in heaven together and continue our conversation, or marvel at the revelation thereof.
Hello Stewart, Thank you for your reply. I remain in disagreement with your premises and I believe I understood your comments.
I do not believe that pretribulationism is necessary to instill the virtues that we both believe should mark the lives of those who call themselves believers.
The scantily documented wedding traditions of first-century Jews is not sufficient to justify dividing what have been historically understood 2nd coming passages into two distinct events that can both be classified as Jesus returning. Doing so creates a 2nd coming and a 3rd coming. This is flat-out wrong.
If a person needs to have a dogma of imminence in order to live a holy life, then I question how strong that faith is to begin with.
Instead of basing your beliefs on a summary of Eph 5, try looking at the entire bible with no philosophical presuppositions. I’m being particularly blunt, but know I’m doing so out of love and respect.
I do think the church will have to endure the tribulation. There will be a great revival before that. I just think it will not be the raptured church. It will be the newly changed believers. However, we can agree to disagree. In the meantime you may have an opening into an honest, much needed, pepper business.
Where does the Bible predict revival in the last days?
Hi the presuppositions are based on a summary of Ephesians. I think I use too much shorthand when I give my explanations. My personal experience was a wonderful thing, but to me, that was to get my attention. Have you ever read the book “Not a Fan” ? Let me know what you think about it
It was eye opening to me as well as my other studies.
– “There will be a great revival before that. I just think it will not be the raptured church. It will be the newly changed believers”
– “Where does the Bible predict revival in the last days?”
1 Cor. 15:51-53
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be CHANGED. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. ”
In 1 Corinthians 15:51-53: THERE ARE NO MENTIONS OF GOING TO HEAVEN, only a mention of a CHANGE applied first for the resurrected dead people, then to those that are still alive. Why it is written that we will be changed into imperishable immortal body? If we were to directly go to heaven, we all know that we will be changed, no need to write it, so why there is this statement that we have to be CHANGED? Because we have to accomplish something on earth: walking with Jesus:
“Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall WALK WITH ME IN WHITE: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same SHALL BE CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” (Rev 3:4-5)
So 1 Cor. 15:51-53 is not about a secret rapture or disappearance to heaven, but rather about a VISIBLE CHANGE for a special purpose, an event different than the “depart to heaven” rapture, an event that will make unaved people very jaleous: the Bible says in Deut 32:21:
“They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.” (Deut 32:21)
This has not yet been fulfilled. What will cause them to be jealous? The view of the saved Christians walking on the earth with Jesus, on their resurrected body, protected during the last days. NOT a secret event, but an event that will be seen and understood, that will make all people furious:
“And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.” (Mat 24:10)
Unsaved people accusing each other because they will have been left. That will be the worst sadness, depression, hate, and all other negative feelings that people will ever experience.
Most people are arguing about the timing of a one-time eschatological event called the “rapture”. But the endtimes may rather be a period of time full of differents events happening successively. When Jesus came the first time, he not only came for three days to die, resurrect and then disappear. Starting from Jesus birth, so many things happened. Even the Bible says that “there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written…” (John 21:25) I think the second coming will be even more intense…
Couldn’t agree more Deborah. Misler’s work on Revelation is comprehensive. Another great resource is Amir Tsarfati. And besides the ample Biblical evidence of God sparing His church from His wrath, I often wonder why those who resist this teaching can possibly think that our loving Father would see it reasonable to beat and bloody up His bride prior to their wedding.
Steve, Chuck Missler relies on occult and gnostic methods of biblical interpretation like numerology, pyramidology, and astrology. And using the analogy of “beating the bride” to justify a pretrib rapture flies in the face of all the warnings in the New Testament about Christian suffering.
“ I often wonder why those who resist this teaching can possibly think that our loving Father would see it reasonable to beat and bloody up His bride prior to their wedding.”
– because the bride – all true Born again Christians of all times – have suffered intense persecutions for already 2000 years since the stoning of Stephan in (Acts 8;1). Why would you believe that the lukewarm Christians now are more worthy to be spared of persecution? That’s has no sense.
Another good scholar is Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Jewish believer with Hebrew/Judaic knowledge, examines scripture exegetically for the pre-trib teaching.
Your state is logically flawed. The first flaw is called an Appeal to Authority
The second is Begging the Question.
Breakdown of the Statement with Respect to Begging the Question
Fallacious Reasoning
I agree that post-trib believers neglect the study on the Jewish wedding ceremony in conjunction with Matthew 25. They also cannot answer when the Bema Seat of Christ will take place or who the mortal survivors are during the Millennium. Believing in the right doctrine concerning this CAN be a salvation issue, not necessarily for the spirit, but bodily. How can faith be effectual if one doesn’t have the faith for a Deliverer?
The idea that first-century Jewish wedding traditions foreshadow the pretribulation rapture is popular among some pretribulational teachers, but this interpretation is largely based on a theological construct rather than direct historical documentation. The concept is typically illustrated as follows:
1. **Betrothal (Engagement)**: Analogous to the Church being set apart for Christ.
2. **Preparation Period**: The groom prepares a place for the bride, similar to Jesus’ promise to prepare a place for believers.
3. **Return of the Groom**: The groom returns unexpectedly for the bride, likened to the rapture occurring unexpectedly.
4. **Wedding Ceremony**: Represents the union of Christ and the Church.
5. **Wedding Feast**: Seen as the marriage supper of the Lamb described in Revelation.
### Source of Teaching
This teaching is primarily drawn from interpretations of biblical passages and not directly from historical texts. Proponents often refer to:
– **John 14:2-3**: Jesus preparing a place.
– **1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**: The rapture event.
– **Matthew 25:1-13**: Parable of the ten virgins.
– **Revelation 19:7-9**: Marriage supper of the Lamb.
### Historical Documentation of First Century Jewish Wedding Traditions
There is limited direct documentation of first-century Jewish wedding customs. What we know comes from a combination of biblical texts, later rabbinic writings, and historical inferences:
1. **Biblical Texts**: Various wedding customs can be inferred from Old and New Testament descriptions, such as the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11), the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13), and other references to marriage and betrothal.
2. **Rabbinic Writings**: The Mishnah and Talmud, written in the centuries following the first century, describe various Jewish customs and laws, including marriage practices. However, these texts were written later and may not perfectly reflect first-century practices.
3. **Historical Inferences**: Scholars piece together customs based on historical contexts and cultural practices of the time.
### Analysis and Critique
Many scholars critique the idea that first-century Jewish wedding traditions directly foreshadow the pretribulation rapture. They argue that:
– The parallel is constructed more from theological necessity than historical evidence.
– First-century Jewish wedding customs are not comprehensively documented to support detailed parallels.
– The interpretations can be seen as eisegesis, reading into the text what one wants to find, rather than exegesis, drawing out the text’s original meaning.
### Conclusion
The teaching that first-century Jewish wedding traditions foreshadow a pretribulation rapture is more theological interpretation than historical fact. While it draws on elements from biblical texts and later rabbinic writings, there is no direct historical document outlining these customs as directly correlating with the pretrib rapture doctrine. The concept remains a popular teaching tool within pretribulational circles but is not universally accepted or historically substantiated.
Like a small child, I put my faith in you Christ Jesus. The details are for YOU. My daily walk is how I am to be prepared. I am very weary of this dark world but that does not change this truth. The End.
“The details are for YOU”. You meaning Jesus I would take it. Our God inspired are Book full of many details for you to understand that could lead to your salvation. If God didn’t think anyone needed to know any details, he would NOT have included them in His book.
Getting back to the topic at hand, my Pastor and I find ourselves at odds concerning the Rapture. After many discussions he tells me “well, we will just have to wait for the Rapture, then we will know who is correct.” My reply was “It is written, we do know, Jesus told us 4 times in John 6 that he would “raise them up at the Last day” and in Matthew 13 he told us the Harvest of Souls would happen “at the End of the World” in the parable of the Wheat & Tares. That 7 times in Jesus own words. Than add in Paul’s Spirit lead writing in 1Thes. 4:15-17 that their will be NO rapture that will come before the resurrection of the dead in Christ. What does that leave a man of sound mind to conclude is the Truth? Do we believe Men, or do we believe Jesus and his Apostle? As for me and my house I am with the Lord. End of the story. I have considered the details.
after reading many of the comments and yours, I specially thing that according to the Scriptures, there will never be a Rapture, as God intended His creation for the manifestation of His glory here on this earth, not flying away when things become difficult, He promised to be with us until the end of the world. The problem is that many leaders of congregations mainly those which are very known because they are charismatic and preach wealth to every believer have come into this doctrine.But God created all so His son (His ekklesia) could glorify His name, and actually our work has to be completed as all the designed plans since before creation,
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it! Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.”
Gen 1:29 Then God said, “I now give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the entire earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Gen 1:30 And to all the animals of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to all the creatures that move on the ground – everything that has the breath of life in it – I give every green plant for food.” It, and this is the actual position of His Church was so. We can see that His pleasure would have been watching His son fulfiling the earth and suddueing it for His glory, and this is the actual position of His Church reconcile men with our Father and restore the whole creatioin for His glorious Name, and then complying His will and been a spouse pure and withoud wrinkle could He (Christ) come to reign over all, having put the enemy under His feet (us the church)… Hope the doctrine of rapture which have bring many to a childhodd christian life will end and many understant by His Spirit the truth of these last days….
It sounds like you’re espousing one of two eschatological positions known as amillennialism or postmillennialism. Both of which significantly ignore or misinterpret the book of revelation. Within the premillennial view, there are divisions over the timing and purpose of the rapture, but not of the fact that there will be one. Those that view the rapture as an escape are pretribulationists. This blogs purpose is to refute the pretribulational view. However, the author subscribes to the historical, premillennial-posttribulation view. I believe you have made several false assumptions that are preventing you from properly interpreting scripture.