I have heard a few somewhat reasonable and concise arguments in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture position. One of those was written by Dr Tony Garland. Dr Garland has a distinguished theological education and I’m sure that in many other areas we would agree. He did what I think was a very good job at laying out the primary points in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture, so I decided to use his article as a springboard to refute the pre-tribulational position. I strongly recommend reading his article for reference. Dr Garland begins by answering an anonymous question, “Is there someplace on your site where you’ve laid out your perception of the end times, including who is involved (the Church, the Jews, etc.) in each piece? And/or biblical support for a pre-tribulation rapture? I have been attempting to study the end times, as I’ve always been taught that there is a pre-tribulation rapture, but I’ve never been taught WHY I should believe that is so. My studies, so far, have not turned up any compelling reasons for believing this particular eschatological view, and have turned up some things which would seem to oppose such a view. However, I do not wish to automatically discard this view; I just can’t find anyone who is teaching it with solid scriptural backing! If you are able to provide me with the scriptural basis for this view, it would be a great help.”
This is an excellent question. Before I came to embrace a pre-millennial post-tribulational view, I was taught like the person asking this question that pre-tribulationism is simply true and that it was obviously so. But over time and after considerable study, I too found it difficult to find pre-tribulationism in scripture, and to the contrary found numerous passages that seemed to refute the idea. Dr Garland goes on to state that many Christians are raised in pre-tribulational Churches but lack the proper teaching and Biblical foundation to form their views from, and are subsequently drawn away from it. I would submit that is the lack of Biblical support for pre-tribulationism that causes most people raised in pretrib Churches to eventually reject the idea, and rightly so. In his article, Dr. Garland lays out his case for the pretrib rapture by making six pionts:
- Imminent Return
- Populating the Millennial Kingdom
- Escaping God’s Wrath
- Waiting for Christ vs. Anti-Christ
- 2 Different Second Comings
- The Restrainer
Imminent Return
As defined by most pre-tribulationists: The idea that no prophecies are required to be fulfilled before Christ returns specifically for the Church; the idea that Christ can or will return at any moment to receive the Church to Himself but will not make His stand on the Earth for another seven years. The problem with this teaching is that it isolates certain passages related to Christ’s second coming ignoring the context and plain meaning of the texts. The warnings to be on the alert center around the Christian’s walk in the context of the last days. In his defence of imminency Dr. Garland does not cite any passages in support of the position, but does offer a link to a definition of imminency that contains what are purported to be affirming texts. I would challenge the reader to look up the references without starting from a pre-tribulational bias and read the scriptures in their full contexts and then see whether or not those passages fit the definition stated above; that nothing remains to happen first and that the event spoken of is the rapture distinct from the second coming. (References: definition, Matthew 24:42-48; Mark 13:33-37; Luke 12:35-40; Romans 13:12; 1Corinthians 7:29; Philippians 3:20-21; 4:5; 1Thessalonians 1:10; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28; James 5:8; 1Peter 4:7; 1John 2:18; Jude 1:21; Revelation 3:11; Revelation 22:7, 10, 20). Further, in the linked definition a qualifier is added. The words and phases quickly, near, and at hand are all code words for imminence. However those words do not in and of themselves convey such an idea. Your death is imminent because it could happen at any moment without warning, but soon, near, and at hand do not infer “at any moment” without preconditions. The reason pretrib teachers do this is because a natural reading of the text does not teach an imminent rapture so they have to redefine words to support their positions.
It is ironic that while pre-tribulationists on the one hand teach that nothing needs to be fulfilled before the rapture occurs, at the same time they are often pointing to current events as an evidence of fulfilled prophecy. One of the biggest events was the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Many predicted the rapture would occur sometime around 1988, 40 years later. Of course we now know that that prediction was wrong. Then there was the establishment of the EU, the increase of Russian political and military power, the rise of the Dragon China, the instability of the Middle East in general and the radicalization of Muslims around the World. These events are frequently pointed to by pre-tribulationists as evidence of fulfilled prophecy. Numerous pre-tribulationist teachers have been guilty of date setting. My personal favorite is from Edgar C. Whisenant who wrote a book entitled, “88 reasons Why The Rapture Will Be in 1988
Dispensational Chart Created by Charles Taze Russell
Populating the Millennial Kingdom
Here Dr. Garland offers a solution looking for a problem. It starts with the false assumption that when Jesus returns, all flesh will be destroyed. The scripture does not state this explicitly. To the contrary we have a very specific and explicit passage of scripture regarding those who are left alive when Christ returns. Zechariah 14 gives us a very descriptive narrative of that time.
Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one. All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. Now this will be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. It will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps. Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar. Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
So here we have a clear picture of Christ at His coming to destroy those that have come to fight against Him. Clearly there are survivors. Not only that, but there is still a remnant of physical Israel that will be saved at His coming. Both of these groups will enter the millennium in their natural bodies and will repopulate the earth.
Escaping God’s Wrath
When discussing God’s wrath, it is extremely important to consider context when quoting scripture. There are numerous examples in the Bible that God has displayed his wrath, and will display it in the future. There is also the penalty of death which rests upon all mankind apart from Christ also defined as wrath, and there is a wrath to be revealed at His coming. In defense of the idea that God is planning to rapture the Church before the second coming, Tony Garland offers upwards of 9 scripture references to support his position. I’ll leave it to the reader to do their own Bible study to determine if all the references do in fact teach that Christians will not go through the tribulation. However we will look at four, keeping in mind that we will be looking at context and not approaching the scripture starting with a pre-tribulational bias.
Proof text #1 Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.
The context is what is commonly known as the Olivet Discourse. It begins with Jesus making a prediction of the destruction of of the Temple and of Jerusalem, which provokes the disciples to ask for more information. Luke 21:7.
They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”
There is a parallel passage in Matthew 24:3.
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
In both versions of the discourse, Jesus begins by giving a warning: “See to it that no one misleads you.” This warning cannot be emphasized enough. I often hear pre-tribulationists argue when their ideas are challenged say, “It’s a minor issue that doesn’t really matter.” If Jesus says be careful to not be misled regarding His second coming then it is extremely important that we understand the times and what the scripture has to say about it. Besides, if pre-tribulational teachers didn’t think it was important, they would not teach it. Jesus then proceeds give the disciples numerous signs to look for. Jesus would not give us things to look for without reason. Again, consider the context of Luke 21:36 by looking at Luke 21:34-36.
“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Clearly Jesus is saying that we should be careful not become apathetic and fall away from Him, not following His teaching. Because when the end comes, if you’re distracted by the things Jesus warned of, you won’t see it coming and will be taken by surprise. That is why He says we need to have strength to stand. The escape He is speaking of is not a pre-trib rapture, it is escaping the temptation to fall away in difficult times. This is what the context supports. You do not get a pre-trib rapture from this passage, unless you approach the passage already believing it. If you already believe in a pre-trib rapture and you do not take the context into account one could be persuaded that this is a good “proof text” for pre-tribulationism. But there is one more reason to reject that interpretation, and it lies within the Greek language. A. T. Robertson, one of the most highly respected Greek scholars of the last century in his book, “Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament,” regarding Luke 21:36 states:
But watch ye (agrupneite de). Agrupnew is a late verb to be sleepless (a privative and upno, sleep). Keep awake and be ready is the pith of Christ’s warning. That ye may prevail to escape (ina katiscushte ekpugein). First aorist active subjunctive with ina of purpose. The verb katiscuw means to have strength against (cf. Matthew 16:18 ). Common in later writers. Ekpugein is second aorist active infinitive, to escape out. To stand before the Son of man (staqhnai emprosqen tou uiou tou anqrwpou). That is the goal. There will be no dread of the Son then if one is ready. Staqhnai is first aorist passive infinitive of isthmi.
There is a big difference between escaping out vs. escaping from. Escaping out implies you are already in it (tribulation), escaping from (which the Greek does not support) would more properly imply not entering the tribulation. The text is saying that if we are walking with the Lord we need not fear His coming as the rest of the world will.
Proof text #2 Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
It seems that the more I look at the scriptures that pre-tribulationists use to try to prove their doctrine, the more I see them being put forward completely out of context. I hate to say it, but it reminds me of the way Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses twist the scriptures. This passage in Romans has absolutely nothing to do with the second coming, or the rapture. Romans 5 is dealing with the subject of justification before God through Christ in the present tense. The wrath of God being spoken of in verse 9 is the wrath that falls on all unbelievers who die in their sins.
Proof Text #3 1 Thessalonians 1:10
…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
In this case the preceding context does not shed additional light on this verse. However Paul addresses the issue again in chapters 4 and 5. From here we are told the the rapture will occur right after the resurrection of the righteous. This in and of itself destroys the doctrine of imminency because it is clear that something must happen before the rapture. Therefore it is the wrath that He brings with him when He returns that we will be spared from, not escaping the tribulation itself.
Proof text #4 Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Once again we are witnessing the method of interpretation called eisegesis as opposed to exegesis, and an example of ignoring context. First lets look at the context of Revelation 2-3. It is a message directly from Jesus to the churches. Some would argue that these messages were only for the the actual geographical churches that existed at the time of the writing and others say that it represents the churches that will exist at the end of the age. More likely it is both, but regardless, if the church of Philadelphia escapes the tribulation by being raptured, then what happens to Church in Smyrna? They are told to just tough it out through tribulation. To say that Revelation 3:10 is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture ignores the context of the message to the rest of the churches.
Secondly a closer examination of the original language makes the passage more clear. The phrase “keep you from” in the Greek language consists of two words, tereo and ek. The word tereo means “watch over protectively, guard”, and ek is a preposition that infers, “out of something that it is already in.” If the the meaning was intended to convey that the church would be removed before entering the tribulation the preposition apo would have been used instead of ek.
Does this mean you need to read Greek to know what the Bible teaches about the rapture? Far from it. As stated before the pre-tribulation rapture is a recent invention from the 19th century and does not result from a simple reading of the scripture. The big problem here is that these pre-tribulation teachers should know better. Because a lot of them do know Greek and do understand the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.
Waiting for Christ vs. Anti-Christ
There are many types of logical fallacies. An “Either/Or” is defined as: A conclusion that oversimplifies the argument by reducing it to only two sides or choices. Often pre-tribulational teachers like Dr. Garland resort to this line of reasoning when putting forward their un-biblical ideas. No one is arguing that Christians should not be looking forward to the return of Christ, but we are also to be alert to the signs of His coming. Antichrist is just one of many things we are told would precede Christ’s return. But having said that, the scripture makes it crystal clear that antichrist will be revealed before Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:18 reads:
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
And in case there is any doubt look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which reads:
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…
Most often these pre-tribulational teachers will say that the warnings and signs are just for the Jews, and not Christians because Christians will have already left the Earth in the rapture by then. Below is a series of warnings and signs related to Christ’s coming. Please, as you consider the following passages keep in mind Paul’s admonition to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15 which reads “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”
- Matthew 7:24-27
- Matthew 13:24-30 Matthew 13:36-43
- Mathew 24-25
- Matthew 28:9-20
- Mark 14
- Luke 17:22-37
- Luke 21:5-36
- John 5:25-29
- John 17 (particularly vss. 15 & 20
- Acts 1:6-11
- 1 Corinthians 10:1-13
- 1 Corinthians 15:1-58
- 1 Thessalonians 4-5:11
- 2 Thessalonians 1-2
- 2 Peter 3
- 1 John 2:15-18
- 1 John 2:25-29
- Revelation 20:4-6
Hopefully if you’re reading this, you have already taken the time to carefully and prayerfully read the preceding passages. If you have, you probably noticed warnings attached. Those warnings are for Christians.
2 Different Second Comings
Historically speaking, the Church has always been looking forward to the second coming. Now we’re told there is a second coming called the rapture and a third coming of Christ in judgement. It is ironic however that pre-tribulationists won’t call Christ coming in judgement, the “third” coming. Dr Garland attempts to make two major points in support of this position. In the first instance he provides a long list of second coming scripture passages that relate different aspects of the same event and then points out the differences as problems that can only be solved by a pre-tribulation rapture. It reminds me of the story of the three blind men describing an elephant when they are each touching different parts. The difference is that we understand that there is only the second coming, and at the same time there different aspects of it.
The second argument that is put forward is that just as the Jews in their day could not reconcile the idea of Jesus being the Suffering Servant and the King of Glory executing judgement on the nations. In a similar way, pre-tribulationists assert that the second coming is actually 2 distinct events, or in effect 2 comings, and those of us that don’t agree are probably not as spiritually minded as our pre-tribulational brethren. The problem with this analogy is that pre-tribulationism is the majority position among most Bible believing Christians, so it can hardly be argued that it is not known.
The Restrainer
I find this teaching to be the most disturbing of the pre-tribulational doctrines. This doctrine is based on a misinterpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which reads:
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
The pre-tribulational doctrine that is built from this verse is as follows:
- The restrainer is the Holy Spirit
- The Holy Spirit indwells believers
- The Spirit being taken away means the Church is no longer on the Earth
- The Holy Spirit is absent from the Earth during the tribulation
First Paul said the believers know what restrains the appearance of the antichrist, meaning among Christians of the time, this was common knowledge. We really no longer have the kind of common knowledge that the early Christians had in the first century. However we do have the opinions of other Bible scholars regarding this passage, and here are just a few their interpretations:
Jamieson Fausset and Brown Commentary – “what withholdeth — that which holds him back; “keeps him in check”: the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [Olshausen]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as “he who now letteth” refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [Alford]. The “what withholdeth” refers to the general hindrance; “he who now letteth,” to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up.”
Matthew Henry Commentary – “There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived.”
Cambridge Bible Commentary – “This paragraph is the most obscure to us in St Paul’s Epistles. It is written in a reserved and elliptical fashion, and bears reference throughout to the Apostle’s oral communications, without which, in fact, he did not expect what he wrote to be fully understood. In their recollection of the writer’s words the Thessalonian Church had a key to his meaning not transmitted to our hands. We must grope for it as best we can. We find, however, considerable light thrown on this dark passage by its relation to other prophetical teachings of Scripture, and to the history of the Apostle’s own time. Yet this added light casts its shadows over the field.”
The Biblical Illustrator – While space does not permit me to quote directly, Joseph Exell’s theory can be summed up as follows: The Church of the first three centuries believed the restrainer to be the Roman empire, but now he now believes it to be the secularization of society at large and the waning influence of Christian influence and principals on society. This makes the most sense to me.
Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible – “The word here is in the neuter gender, “What withholdeth.” In the following verse it is in the masculine gender, ὁ κατέχων ho katechōn – “he that letteth,” or withholdeth; and the reference would seem to be to some agency or state of things under the control of an individual, or of some civil power, that then operated as a restraint on the natural tendency of things. Of this, the apostle says, they had had full information; but we can only conjecture what it was. The restraining power of anything controlled by an individual, or of any government, or the restraining power of God, would meet all that the phrase implies.”
Robertson’s Word Pictures – And now you know (kai nun oidate), says Paul in this cryptic apocalyptic passage. Unfortunately we do not know what Paul means by that which restrains (holds back, katechon), neuter here and masculine in 2Th 2:7 ho katechōn.
Suffice to say there are many notable scholars that do not agree with the pre-tribulational interpretation so I’m standing on pretty solid ground in refuting it. But here is why I think this idea is so dangerous. Being empowered by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ is how we overcome sin and persecution. If as the pre-tribulationists teach it is true that the Holy Spirit will be absent from the Earth during the tribulation, then the gospel ceases to be the gospel. How could a convert to Christ during the tribulation be saved apart from the Spirit? How could they in faith rely upon God to overcome sin and persecution without the Spirit. That is why if for no other reason I believe this teaching is from the pit, because it effectively nullifies the gospel being efficacious during the tribulation. So while Dr Garland and other pretrib teachers are trying to distract you by asking how babies are made during the millennium, maybe we should be asking the pretrib teachers how people can be saved during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit! Jesus said in Luke 12:11-13
“When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
To teach that the Spirit of God is absent during the tribulation is to rob believers of hope at a time when they need it most. It literally is another gospel. A gospel that promises escape from suffering for the Church and then robs them of hope during the most intense trial of all time. It is in short, demonic. I’ll leave the reader with 2 scriptures to ponder.
Revelation 14:6-7
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
Galations 1:6-9
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
On the “immanency” of Yeshua’s return: Jesus’s return has never been imminent, could happen at any moment.
John 21:18-19 18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”
Jesus told Peter that he would die on a cross. So Jesus knew that Peter would die on a cross before his return. Thus, Yeshua’s return was never “at any moment”.
Hello.everyone. How would you respond to James M. Rochford’s arguments in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture?
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/eschatology/a-pretribulational-rapture/
Sorry for the delay in responding. The article was too large to adequately respond to in a comment so I have written a point by point rebuttal and published it here. A Pretribulational Rapture – A Critique
I just came across your site a couple days ago and wanted to make a comment and didn’t know the correct way to reply. I read most of all the articles and replies posted today on NOPRETRIB. It is not necessary to post this reply as it is mostly concerns another person that replied to you on April 15,2018 https://pbenson.me/about-me/Let's Get it Right”. I hope you’ve had a chance to check out his Blog. I’ve followed people such as Jacob Prasch and lately Cony Brown but I don’t believe anyone has covered the Rapture or Pre-Trib more thoroughly then Mr. Benson. The following is just a small sample:
The following paragraphs come from articles by Paul Benson “Let’s Get it Right”.
I believe, if people want a thorough response to the pre-trib falsehood, they will find it covered by Paul.
“ Many who think they can *claim Rev. 3:10 as a promise would care to also claim another ‘promise’ in John’s letters. If Rev. 3:10 is for you why not 2:10 also:
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Revelation 2:10
Does not this verse also carry a promise to the Church? Why is one a promise to you, and not the other? Because one tickles your ears, and the other does not?
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22. There are those who say that the elect spoken of here are (only) the Jews. What about the Christian that is “in Christ”?
The word elect is used 16 times in the N.T. (KJV). The underlying Greek word eklektos is used 23 times and is always translated ‘elect’ or ‘chosen’. It is also enlightening to search the word ‘election’. A thorough look at all these passages shows NOT ONE reference to national Israel NOW being the elect. The fact the believer is now the elect of God is undeniable as you look through the verses in question. Examine each verse and ask yourself if this is a reference to national Israel (or those who are in Christ).
The Word of God clearly teaches we the followers of Christ are ‘the elect’ of God; and therefor we are the ones being gathered unto Christ in Matthew 30:31. The following are older articles but he has many newer articles and all of his books are free on line, such as “A Bucket Full of Holes” and “Escape? or Passover?”.
https://pbenson.me/2016/10/31/the-elect-of-god-today/” or https://pbenson.me/2016/06/07/the-promise-of-revelation-3-10/
From Blue Letter Bible:
Strong’s Number G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia),
which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
The KJV translates Strong’s G646 in the following manner: to forsake (wit G575 (1x), falling away(1x) the same may be found in Vine’s or Thayer’s- Never catching away as Pre-Trib will tell you.
Thank You for your Time.
Hello. Thanks for your comments. This video tries to support the pre-tribulation rapture using scripture. What do you think?
What do I think of this video? I think it’s just a rehash of the same arguments that I always hear coming from pretribbers. Each and every one is refuted on this website. I will say that in its favour that it’s well-produced and will probably sell a lot of t-shirts. If you listen carefully you’ll often hear him say things like, “if this is correct,” or “this would seem to suggest,” etc. This weakens his arguments. The scripture either teaches pretribulationism or it doesn’t. In my opinion, he failed to make a solid case by relying on types and shadows instead of declarative Biblical references. This is because there aren’t any.
Well said Scott.
As Charles Spurgeon famously proclaimed: “Dogmatism! Where are you? Where have you been o glorious dogmatism? Come back, we need you now more than ever!”
This was said in support of Luther’s “justification by Faith alone” which kick started the glorious bright spark of the Reformation (sadly now a smouldering flame about to go out!). Whatever negative opinions any in our day have of Luther, they should be set aside, for he clearly understood his Bible taught justification by Faith ALONE; he KNEW it and he believed it! Imagine, if you can, for one minute; if he had said “I THINK we are justified by Faith alone”, or, “I have a THEORY this might be true”? Would we not still be shackled by the popes?
Sadly dogmatism is frowned upon from practically every corner these days. Ecumenism (there are many routes to God) flourishes when biblical dogmatism is cast aside.
Pre tribulationism is NOT a biblical doctrine. Therefore what can it be but a satanic lie?
Mark 13 24-27 clearly defines it for me “after the Tribulation”
I can also see how or why there is a great falling away especially if Christians are going through the Tribulation.
Most Pastors and commentators always dance around Mark 13 24-27 probably because its too uncomfortable to address.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and the righteous are left behind. Don’t these verses point to two separate events, the Rapture and the Second Coming?
Two different events true, but the wrong two events.
1 Thess 4:13-17 is dealing with both the rapture and the second coming. The context is “the coming of the Lord” in vs 15. You’re assuming your premise to think that this is any other coming besides the one and only second coming. There are not 2 comings of the Lord. The context of hope and comfort is not in escaping tribulation, it is being reunited with our brothers and sisters who have died. Not all of the early believers expected the second to take so long. In fact, most believed it would happen in their own lifetime. Otherwise, there would be no need for Paul to reassure them about being reunited with the dead in Christ. Peter understood this though, and wrote about it so we would understand that the Lord’s return may be far in the future. 2 Peter 3:8-16 Emphasis on vs 16. There is no Biblical justification to divide the second coming into a second and a third with 7 years in between.
The event that Matthew writes about is not the second coming, it is the final judgement. Read Revelation. Even after Christ reigns on Earth for 1000 years, there will be another rebellion at the end when Satan, his angels, and those whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. Compare Matt 13:37-43 with Revelation 20.
The coming of the Lord is what the Thessalonians “thought” they were in that day. They had been deceived because they were expecting a rapture that would save them from this. Paul had to reassure them on that basis.
Hi Scott!
Have not read through all this article but just wanted to send my support and thank you for this site. It’s great and an awesome resource. The Pre-trib deception is such a plague and I’m constantly amazed at how many otherwise mature Christians I meet who have fallen for it and have the same kind of paranoia and fear in their eyes when one questions it that those living in a police state have when you question their Government. It’s bizarre and lamentable. God bless you from Australia for everything you’re doing!
Ah, the worst part of it all, is that “pre-tribbers” are the first to point out and hold a stance of “Supercessionism” / Replacement Theology, and yet, in the most hypocritical act, they themselves separate end-time passages between the church and Israel. How convenient! Matthew 24 is apparently only for Jews, but they use the verse “No one knows the day or hour”. And on and on it goes. Pre-Trib is too much like buying a ticket for the lottery, and yet, it never comes. Empty hopes. And as a defense, they will use 2 Peter 3 How they are mockers in the last days to prove their point. Just place verse here and another here to fit a very deceptive picture.
2 Verses to go by.
John 17:15 “I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.” (Words of Jesus Himself).
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
The verse to the Thessalonians is the kicker. And what do the Pre-Tribs do (of course). Is change the meaning of the word “apostasy” to “departure”. But the context is clearly about an apostasy of faith and not of a physical departure. The context is that of a “rebellion” and not a “disappearing”. Additionally, this verse and its context are addressing “lawlessness”, which is itself, apostasy.
But, you know, Pre-Tribbers are not “Supercessionists”, but conveniently, cut out the Jews during the end times. This is a testament to Pre-Trib.
The Holocaust: A Biblical Examination (Future Implications) Conference Videos
Submitted for your review as you may have opportunity.
Thank you.
Fred London
“It is worth pointing out that there are no direct references to the rapture as an event in and unto itself anywhere in the 4 gospels.” -Scott Pruitt
“In my Father’s house are many rooms…I go to prepare a place for you…
I will *come again* and take you unto myself, so that where I am you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)
If Jesus is going away to prepare a place for his bride (ala the Jewish husband/wife custom), then I’d say Jesus’s “preparation” must be in heaven, since that is where Jesus went soon after saying this. I’d further suggest the reason Jesus will return to take believers to heaven (John 14:2-3) is so that believers may avoid the bowl judgments (Rev 15:7 ff.), in accordance with his promise in Rev 3:10.
Hi William, I don’t see how you have in any way provided a valid refutation of my statement that you quote, “It is worth pointing out that there are no direct references to the rapture as an event in and unto itself anywhere in the 4 gospels.” The rapture may be inferred in John 14:2-3. However, if that is the case (and I believe it is) he ties the rapture to His coming singular, not one of two. Your misunderstanding of Jewish tradition has prevented you from following the simple rules of exegesis which is to regard the plain statement of the text, the context, and the co-text. If you have to rely on tradition to validate a doctrine, then you are more likely to be led into error. Read Titus chapter 1.
I don’t even like to use the word “rapture” because of the confusion that Dispensationalism and Pretribulationalism have created. When Christ comes the second time, which only happens once, He will execute final judgment and final redemption. This all occurs at the end of this present age which will include all people on earth going through tribulation. The reason why that Greek word is used (1 Thess. 4:17) is to help describe the event that is taking place. The dead in Christ will rise first and those of us who are alive at His second coming will be “caught up” together with them. This event clearly takes place at Jesus’ final return and final coming. All you have to do is continue reading in Chapter 5 of 1 Thess. This is clearly referring to the same event, Paul is addressing the same people in both chapters. Remember chapters and verses were added later, and I would suggest this one was placed arbitrarily and erroneously. It is the same event that is described in 1 Cor. 15. just addressing two separate issues. 1 Cor. is more focused on disputes concerning the resurrection of the dead… each occurring in its proper order. Christ, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep and then those who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, which occurs at the last trumpet. 2 Thess. is focused on those who have fallen asleep in the Lord at His final return.
Hi Scott;
Good and solid points made in your article.
Caught a link to your site from a site (Discerning the World) who just did an ‘attack the messenger instead of the message’ critique of my book: The Pre-trib Rapture: A Bucket Full of Holes!”.
I discuss these issues and others on my blog ‘Let’s Get It Right!’ @ pbenson.me
Blessings and keep up the good work;
Paul Benson
There is no pre-trib rapture! There is no scripture to back it up.
Now, carry on…
Mat 13.30 – Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
clearly this says that the weeds will be dealt with first, then the wheat will be gathered! this binding of the tares could be like the tying up of the strong man. And might mean the “taken” of the one in the field and on the roof of his house etc. Is actually becoming possessed. Isaiah 28 uses this word :Taken”.13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Paul uses Isaiah 28 when correcting the Corinthians about the use of tongues.
The tares in the parable are people who appear to be Christians but are false believers secretly placed in the church by Satan. That’s how I read it. It is not necessarily talking about all non-believers in general, but rather those who claim to be and look like a believer but are not.
There is no Pre-Trib Rapture! For crying out loud! Get over it!
Hahaha!
The belief in a pre-Tribulation is simply escapism! Try telling believers in India, the Middle East, China, Africa, and Indonesia that they’ll not suffer any persecution, that they’ll be translated out before persecution!!! They would laugh at you for suggesting such a thing, why? Because they are already facing their tribulations. When the Great Tribulation hits the west it will lead to the Great Falling Away in the church, many of those who will fall away will have been trusting in the imminent return of Yeshua ‘Jesus’ Pre Wrath is what the word of the Lord teaches, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1st and 2nd Thess will confirm the same thing…. 1. Tribulation 2. Signs in sun, moon and stars, 3. Angels sent out to gather elect and son of man coming in the clouds
Hi Jim CLINT,
You are correct in saying pre-tribulation is escapism. And I say that as a pre-trib believer.
The reason I have no problem admitting it is escapism is taught by Jesus himself when he advises us to pray always that we may “escape” from the things that will come upon the whole earth. (Luke 21:34-36)
It’s been said ad nauseam, the future tribulation will be a time of trouble such as never happened before or ever will again. As bad as what many believers from all around the world have experienced for almost 2000 years, it is not as horrific as what is still coming.
As a pre-trib believer, I am well aware that Jesus said that we will be generally persecuted and will suffer tribulation, and many unto death. One would have to be blind not to see that. But thank God that He has given a way out of the “great tribulation” if one is worthy when that time comes.
@J. Sebastian,
Pre-tribulationism is escapism as you admit in your comment. However, what Jesus said in Luke 21 is not escapism. The use of the word escape does not equate to escapism. In context, Jesus is very specific in what he warns His disciples to escape from. Jesus does not warn them to escape the tribulation itself but rather to escape from the sin and temptation of carousing, drunkenness, and the cares of life. That is not escapism, it is a solemn warning. This is in line with Jesus’ High Priestly prayer, “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.”
Hi Mr. Pruitt,
I respectfully disagree with your statement. Jesus just talked about the difficult times that will come upon the whole world in Luke 21. Those difficult times are not referring to carousing, drunkenness and the cares of life. I read it as his warning that if you are into those things before the day of trouble comes, then you will be left to go through the events of those times that he just mentioned, instead of receiving the promise of escaping the events of those days and standing before the Son of Man.
It makes no sense to me that Jesus would give us a warning to allegedly escape carousing, drunkenness or cares of life, just to be thrown into a time of trouble such as never was anyway. While at the same time he promises an escape “from ALL that is about to happen” for those who are worthy. If there is no escape for any believer when that time comes, as you believe, it makes no difference if you were a “good” Christian or a “bad” Christian up until that time, since both alike will have to endure the same great tribulation.
You mentioned “context.” Just reading verse 35 before 36 puts it in context.
35 For as a snare shall it [the day of trouble] come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
What Jesus described earlier in the chapter were Christians that did NOT escape those things that are coming upon the world. They are in the midst of it. But if one stays awake and lives righteously before the day arrives, then that one will escape “all that is about to happen” and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.
I think the “pre-wrath position” is very close to the truth, but misunderstands some things. There are Christians, a great multitude that will be here on earth during the tribulation. They will be be martyred. They also will be resurrected at the 6th seal. But that does not negate the Resurrection that occurs earlier. The “1st Resurrection” is not all in one piece.
@L. Sebastian,
You are assuming your premise. In other words, since you already believe in a pretrib rapture which is nowhere mentioned in this context, you are attempting to make the passage agree with your premise. It is worth pointing out that there are no direct references to the rapture as an event in and unto itself anywhere in the 4 gospels. Therefore, you are reading into the text something that is not there. Going back to my original point that escape does not equal escapism. I’m willing to concede that the word escape in this context has a broader meaning than just applying to sin. However, I believe that in context, escape has to do with perseverance through the tribulation so that we are not as the unbelievers at His second coming, facing His indignation.
Just a couple of thoughts.
The Scripture is explicit that “a great multitude” will be martyred; that “came out of great tribulation” Revelation 9 & 14, these are those whom “loved not their lives unto the death” Revelation 12.11, these elect saints are no doubt collectively a great number, for they come from ” every nation” (RV), of this group it is also said that “no man could number” them.
Though we know not the number, and it would be vain to speculate beyond what is written; however, God knows His elect. Regarding this “number”, it is my opinion that it will be an infinitesimal and minuscule percentage of the world’s population (currently some 7 billion). for wickedness and unbelief is ever increasing, and we know Christianity is being increasingly marginalised in the nations. Scriptures such as Luke 18.8 & Matthew 24.12 certainly attest to this.
So, just before the rapture of the living saints takes place (same event as the Second Coming) it is said “the dead in Christ shall rise first” 1 Thessalonians 4.16. This number will, in my opinion, be a number infinitely and exponentially larger than the number of living saints who will be ‘raptured’ for it includes ALL the OT saints from Adam right through to the time of the “first resurrection”; the so-called rapture. Therefore, in comparison to this time scale, those that “are alive and remain” 1 Thessalonians 4.17 will truly be a very minuscule and extremely insignificant number.
Also, let us not forget that the martyred “great multitude” in Revelation 7.9 that Mr Sebastian refers to, will NOT be among those that “are alive and remain”, for they WILL be among “the dead in Christ” that “shall rise first”, having very recently ‘suffered’ a martyrs death. As to what sort of burial (if any?) that these martyred saints will receive, only God in Christ knows. Some of these saints will have ‘slept’ for a matter of months, weeks, days, hours or even seconds before the first resurrection.
By God’s grace alone can any of us “escape all these things that shall come to pass…” I would rather not be martyred, but if such a fate awaits us, then may God give us all the courage to endure to the end?
There are several Scriptures that support suffering for Christ, a few being; Acts 5.41, 2 Thessalonians 1.5, 1 Peter 4.12-14 etc.
“It is worth pointing out that there are no direct references to the rapture as an event in and unto itself anywhere in the 4 gospels.” -Scott Pruitt
Depends on what you mean by direct references as an event unto itself. And it depends on your understanding of “coming” mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus absolutely refers to the Rapture throughout Matthew 24 and 25. He also places it before the day of trouble.
Like I’ve said before in other posts, there are two comings in the Olivet Discourse. I already know that you don’t believe that. But it is the only way the discourse makes sense. Jesus mentions various types of “believers” in the Olivet Discourse. Those that are ready and those who are not before the day comes. Those who are ready are safe from Jesus wrath. They need not fear the day of trouble, because they won’t be here. They’ll be “taken and the other left.” This is a direct reference to the Rapture.
The ten virgins parable is also another direct reference to the Rapture and those left behind complain that they can’t go with the others who made it in. It also pictures the Rapture as coming before the time of trouble, not after.
Jesus in the discourse speaks to believers who will be here on earth and what to expect if they find themselves in that period of time. Matthew has the more complete version of the discourse. But he also says to stay awake and free from life’s struggles and pleasures and to pray, BEFORE that day, to be found worthy to escape that hour of trial. If you find yourself in the day of trouble, then there is no escaping it. Period. It’s true that you might keep the faith and survive through it all. Though you would be among a very small group of people that survive, since believers will be handed over to be killed for a 3.5 year period.
So if your view is correct, is Jesus not being entirely truthful about the possibility of escaping all of it? If he is talking to believers who were living rightly when the time comes, what will they escape from if they are in the middle of it?
“They’ll be taken and the other left.” This is a direct reference to the rapture.’
Perhaps J.Sebastian may care to explain the Lord’s words in Matthew 13.30, “…Gather up FIRST the tares…” ?
For there to be an ‘any moment’ rapture some seven years or whatever, before the Second Coming to remove the wheat from the Earth, how come the Lord said that the wheat and the tares must “grow together until the harvest”?
The “harvest is the end of the age” Matthew 13.39, not seven years before it.
Did The Lord Jesus preach a different gospel to Paul?
Hi Colin Ford,
Those are excellent questions. I hope I can explain myself well enough to make sense and that you can bear with me.
First, I interpret Matthew 13 in light of many other passages that put it more into perspective. For instance, Daniel 8:23 “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.”
I believe that the end of the age/harvest time is referred to here as the time when “the transgressors are come to the full.” The “king” is the final Antichrist that eventually makes war with the saints and with Christ at his second coming. This verse is not referring exactly to the “tares” of Matt. 13, because tares are people that look like true believers, but are actually false christians. I personally think “the transgressors” refer to many in political/military power on the earth and all the earth is threatened because of them, thus instigating the miraculous coming of antichrist.
I interpret the rise of Antichrist as the signal that we have reached the time of the harvest/end of the age. Antichrist’s rise occurs BEFORE the Rapture, before the tribulation, and before the Day of the Lord. After his rise, Christ will prepare for the final events of the last days. Antichrist creates an empire and causes peace and prosperity the world has never experienced. Many christians will fall away and will fulfill the great apostasy of the last days. It is during this period, before the tribulation, that “they will say ‘Peace and safety!’…then sudden destruction. What is the catalyst for the destruction? The Rapture/Resurrection. The Rapture will not only begin judgment on the world, but also a sort of judgment on the Church as well. It separates the true Christian from the false.
Have you ever pondered this portion of Scripture in Matthew 22?
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
As unpopular as my interpretation of Matt.22 is, I believe that this refers to people who were resurrected to attend Christ’s wedding feast, but were not actually a true believer. They “crashed the kingdom”, so to speak. They appeared to be Christians, but were not. They were the “tares.” They somehow got gathered together with the true wheat. So they were bound and expelled. It’s a terrifying thought!
This interpretation can also be gleaned from Daniel 12, which says that the resurrection of the righteous ALSO includes some who sleep in the dust of the earth and awake “to shame and everlasting contempt.”
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
To me, this means that Christians, and apparent Christians, are gathered to Christ at the Rapture, which occurs immediately before the tribulation. A separation occurs at this time among those that had died but are at the wedding feast, as described in Matt. 22. But for those who are alive on earth at the time, the false Christian will simply be left behind. There is still hope for those left behind since they have not yet died and judgment for salvation comes only after death.
I therefore believe that my understanding of Matthew 13:30 and 39 is consistent with my overall interpretation of eschatology.
J.Sebastian, thank you for your reply, but it is hardly worth continuing in any form of dialogue with you; your ‘sign off’ says it all, really?
“I therefore believe that MY understanding of Matthew 13.30 and 39 is consistent with MY overall interpretation of eschatology.”
(my emphasis).
On the parable we have been discussing, you would do well to ponder B.W.Newton’s ( J.N.Darby’s ‘adversary’) words in this regard.
“Parables, if they do not enlighten, blind.” p 122 Prospects of The Ten Kingdoms of the Roman Empire by Benjamin Wills Newton.
The pre-trib rapture theory as you may or may not know is a latter day NT Church ‘doctrine’ which rose to prominence via J.N.Darby and C.I.Scofield from 1830 until the present day, it continues to seduce believers.
I did not sign off. But if you want to take it that way, that’s up to you.
I notice you have no reply to the points I made from the Bible, from questions that you yourself asked me. If you can refute them, please do.
Do you have YOUR own understanding and interpretation of eschatology, or do you simply believe what others have told you to believe? I could take your statement/rebuke to me as an admission that you haven’t studied it on your own enough to come to your own conclusions.
Personally, I’d rather discuss what Scripture says than debate who believed what and where and why.
Hi everyone … great discussion, I stumbled across and when I read the comments about the Olivet Discourse i remembered that the late Dr Chuck Missler a good friend and bible teacher , made an interesting discovery that the parallel Gospel accounts are very similar in many
details but then Luke says But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
— Luke 21:12 Matthew’s (and Mark’s account) differs “Then shall” (verses 9, 10, 11, et al.). The bulk of his record deals with events after these “sorrows” or birth pangs. He (as well as Mark) further introduces — and emphasizes — an additional sign that is omitted from Luke’s account:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:). you can read the article here https://www.khouse.org/articles/2005/580/
— Matthew 24:15
Hello Ian,
I would not recommend Chuck Missler’s teaching on a number of counts.
1. His staunch support of pretribulationism.
2. He promoted and believed in Pyramidology.
3. He promoted and taught a form of divination known as numerology (Bible Codes).
4. He promoted and taught that the gospel was revealed in the signs of the Zodiak.
5. He falsely predicted a breakdown of computer systems (financial system, power grids, etc.) in the Y2K scare.
6. The worst of his false teaching is the idea that the universe is not physical but is in fact a holographic projection. By saying that the universe is in fact a holographic projection, he denies the physicality of creation and thereby denies that Jesus Himself became physical. That is the very essence of Gnosticism’
What he is describing here fits perfectly with the Gnostic idea of emanations and the Hindu doctrine of Maya. So rather than the universe being created ex-nihilo, in this scenario, it is instead a reflection of a higher reality.
Well, one thing’s for sure, this passage is fulfilled in light of these conversations.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
The ‘rapture’ is going to happen when it does, nothing you can do about it.
This blog is written in obedience to 2 Tim 2:23 where “arguments” is better translated “speculations.” NASB And also 2 Cor 10:3-5 “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ…” Pre-tribulationism is a foolish speculation that has risen to the point of being a test of orthodoxy.
Without giving a treatise on the sordid history of how pre-tribulationism came to be, basically, for 1800 plus years the NT Church was EXCLUSIVELY looking for the Second Advent of Christ (THE blessed hope), that is ONE event-the Second Coming! I hardly need to give all the Greek here; all good translations record this (mine being the KJV AV/RV).
However, this all changed when a certain J.N.Darby came on to the scene with the help of C.I Scofield, and now this false doctrine has become “a test of orthodoxy” (never heard it put that way before!) Incredible, but true!
We should be as sure as Luther was on “justification by Faith alone” before applying Scriptures such as Revelation 22.18-19 against those whom we are in disagreement with.
It has become a test of orthodoxy in many churches. Many churches that still place doctrinal statements on their websites state explicitly that as a church body they hold to pre-tribulationism. Since when does the timing of the rapture rise to the level of the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation by grace through faith, ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper, or the inerrancy of scripture?
If god says there is going to be a rapture, there gonna be a rapture.
Dear Scottie,
I do not understand your comment. I’m not denying the rapture. I’m disputing the timing of it being at any moment before the tribulation. Can you not see that distinction in these posts?
Where does God say there’s going to be a rapture? Seriously. It’s not anywhere in the KJV.
Mark,
I’m not going to entertain the arguments of King James Onlyists anymore on this site. There is no such thing as an inspired translation. The originals are inspired and that is sufficient to know the will of God for our lives. Are there bad translations? Absolutely, but this is not a forum to debate that issue. Having said that, the rapture is in the KJ Bible. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Cor 15:51-53
The KJV has been the standard for a very long time. Regardless, the passage you refer to is a Second Coming verse.
Show me one verse that says Christ comes before the Second Coming. I don’t care what version you use.
With all do respect, there is no secret rapture of the church. It’s more or less an invention of Irving and Darby. With, perhaps, a little help from Margaret McDonald.
Mark I don’t understand your point. Isn’t this article saying there is no secret rapture. It sounds like you are arguing that the author IS arguing for a secret rapture, but he is not.
I was making a point that the KJV is still considered accurate, as far as scripture is concerned. But in most contemporary versions of the bible, any reference to the rapture isn’t found.
Nopretrib is an excellent article and I personally lean towards the prewrath position only because of the sudden appearance of the saved multitude in Rev 6. One point I would reject if I were a pretribber is the argument that the restrainer cannot be the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church. Every pretribber I have debated believes that the Holy Spirit Himself will still be active in His Saints but no longer in the church. Similar to the view that a political force can restrain evil, so also the diminished presence of the church at large will enable the Antichrist to prevail. I personally do not hold this view but I do not believe you can dismiss it as easily as other claims made by pretribbers.
I assume that when Jesus returns there will be mortal believers on the earth. Correct?
Hello Michael,
You have assumed correctly. However, there is no need to make this assumption as the scripture itself makes this perfectly clear in Zechariah 14.
Revelation 22:18
18 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Think about what you’re doing before you speak. All of you are doing just this. There’s a reason Christ forbade you to add or remove from Revelation. And what are you doing? Exactly that.
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
Therefore, pretrib, posttrib, prewrath, supertrib, smalltrib, lefttrib, jumptrib, insidethatguy’shousetrib is all lies. If we all cannot agree, then it is a false prophecy.
Have to disagree. If we cannot all agree then only two options exist. Either all are wrong, or all but one are wrong. I believe all but one are wrong. As for adding to or taking away from Revelation, I challenge you to demonstrate where I have done either.
Great article! I always had trouble with the pretrib theory but I just kinda chopped it up to the leaders knowing better than I do. When I realized they believed the Holy Spirit would be taken, I knew that made no sense, since the theory included after rapture salvations. No one gets saved without the Holy Spirit! Plus I’ve wondered why the Bible gave so much detail about events we wouldn’t be here to experience. Reading end time prophecy is so confusing when you read it believing in pretrib. Makes more sense reading it with a posttrib veiw.
Hi kellyclaywoo,
Most pre-trib believers that I know, of which I am one, don’t believe that the Holy Spirit ever leaves this earth. I believe that the Holy Spirit is quite active and saving souls in the midst of the tribulation. I think the Bible is quite clear on that regardless of what position one takes to the timing of the Rapture.
Th pre-trib teaching isn’t that the Holy Spirit leaves in the sense of the Holy Spirits presence. The Holy Spirit was present actively working on the earth in the Old Testament however, he did not indwell believers. The indwelling presence of the HS started on the day of Pentecost and is unique to the church. Ask yourself why Jesus said that he must depart that comforter would come. John 16:7. Paul reveals in his epistles, specifically Ephesians and Colossians, the mystery of the church that was hid in other ages. In Colossians 1:27 he calls it “this mystery among the gentile, which is Christ in you…” There you have the indwelling spirit a union with Christ that is unique to the Church. In Ephesians 5 he speaks of the union of marriage where two become one and in this context says in verse 32, “This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church”.
So the pre-trib teaching is the biblical position that the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit which is unique to the church leaves at the pre-tribulation rapture with the church. This in no way precludes the Holy Spirit continuing to work on the earth in the same manner that the Holy Spirit worked prior to the day of Pentecost.
Hi Doug Lay,
Interesting interpretation. I consider the martyrs who are killed during the tribulation to be members of the church.
From my understanding of Scripture, the tribulation period that the saints endure is still a part of the so-called “Church Age.” This tribulation period is 3.5 years long, as told in Daniel 7 and elsewhere. In my opinion, the pre-trib Rapture does not end the church age. There is a 3.5 year period before Daniels’ 70th week. Daniel’s 70th week is separate from the church age and does not overlap. The Holy Spirit is poured out on those believers in the tribulation as described in Joel 2. I see Joel describing the tribulation and stating that this occurs “BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord.”
Joel 2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus describes the tribulation of the saints and then says that the end of the church age will come AFTER that period.
Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. [These are Christians here, not Jews as some say]
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When this church/gospel age ends, then commences the Day of the Lord, also known as Daniel’s 70th week. It is then, in Daniel’s 70th week, that the martyrs are avenged and the world judged with the plagues from heaven.
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That is how I read it.
One thing I have against your point is the argument that something is taken out of the way. The normal usage of Mesou and Genetai with the context does not warrant to translate using the least normal usage to mean taken out of the way because the normal usage is comprehensible within the greek context to mean. That someone comes *out of the midst into being* whom is the antichrist himself as the masculine katechon, the nueter katechon are both events of the great Apostasy and the reveal of the anti-Christ before the perousia can take place. That is the context by the way in which the Thessalonians were taught previously in Paul’s visit, then later were made confused about it’s timing because of decievers. Paul is writing to correct the confusion of what and whom restrains the 2nd coming of Jesus.
We now know within context of this passage what and whom restrains Jesus arrival as the *GreatApostasy* must take place *first* and is what restrains the anti-Christ and then when the anti-Christ comes out of the midst into being to reveal himself then Jesus will come back to destroy him with His brilliant Glory.
Sense thier are no cross references of this passage and Paul said they already knew what restrains, the answer is found within the context of 2 thess 2 only. One must simply re-adjust thier mind from thinking the antichrist is the focus of being restraind to what Paul was correcting to know whom is being restrained being Jesus and what takes place first before Jesus Arrival.
I stand by what I wrote.
Great article. One thing I will clarify is that Darby wasn’t the man who introduced the doctrine; it was Edward Irving. In fact, the first written pages implying a “rapture” of the church are found in Irving’s “Morning Watch” paper. Around the 1820’s-1830’s. Darby didn’t adopt this theory until later. Both visited Margaret McDonald and witnessed her “revelation”, but it was Irving that ran with it.
Hello Mark, you are correct about Irving however his version of pre-tribulationism was different than Darby’s. The idea if a two comings was discussed by Irving in the Morning Watch which Darby had access to, but Darby took that and developed it into a systematic theology, and it is his version that prevailed. In my mind who gets to take credit for the idea is less important than the fact that the dual second coming doctrine originates in the 19th century and is thoroughly false and unbiblical.
To some extent it is different, but the pre-trib theory was firmly established under Irving. The interesting thing about all this is how Irving was influenced by Manuel Lacunza. He was a Jesuit priest. He followed in the footsteps of Francisco Ribera. Another Jesuit priest. He, by order of the Catholic Church, came up with the whole idea of “dispensationalism”. The Catholic Church wanted the world’s view of the Pope being the antichrist erased from everyone’s mind. This lead, I believe, to the invention of the pre-trib theory. Don’t think for one second that Lacunza’s presence was an accident; he was purposely placed with Irving by the Catholic Church.
Whether Darby’s definition is Irving’s is irrelevant. The pre-trib theory was not Darby’s idea. I’ve read where Darby didn’t fully accept the idea until 3 years later… perhaps longer. I believe too much credit – or discredit – is given to Darby. I am not defending Darby… well, maybe a little. It’s interesting how Lacunza is never mentioned, and Irving, who, by the way, even remarked about Christ’s “sinfulness”, is all but forgotten by most everyone, except those willing to do the research.
I truly believe that the pre-trib theory is an invention of the devil; meant to lull Christians into a state of spiritual laziness and entitlement. Ravenhill said it best when he stated,
“The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!”
The pre-trib fits neatly into that “untested theology”. Don’t you think?
Joseph, I almost understood your point, but could you repeat it in different words? Are you saying that Jesus is the restrainer of the Antichrist?
Hey I noticed you said you were post trib in this blog. I don’t see any argument for that. I also think pre trib is unbiblical. But the view I believe lines up best with scripture is the pre wrath view. In Daniel 9 we first hear about the antichrist signing a 7 year covenant. About halfway into the week we see that antichrist starts his great tribulation. In Matthew 24 we read in vs. 22 that except those days be cut short (those days being the days of antichrist’s great tribulation) than there would be no flesh on the earth. But for the sake of the elect (The church) those days have been cut short. Meaning the second 3 1/2 will be shortened. In vs. 29-31 of Matthew 24 it tells of how immediately after the tribulation of those days (the days of antichrist’s great tribulation) we will see the sign of Christ’s coming and where He will gather up His elect. In Revelation 6 we read of the Lamb (Christ) opening up the seals that are on the scroll. The sixth seal gets opened up in verse 12 of chapter 6 and goes all the way through chapter 7. We see that the same sign that was shown in Matthew 24 is shown in the sixth seal. The sixth seal is where God protects a 144,000 Jews by sealing them so they won’t be hurt when He begins pouring out His wrath on the wicked. After He seals them we hear about a multitude of every nation, tongue, and tribe praising God. Later on in chapter 7 we read that those people were those (the church) who came out of the great tribulation. In chapter 8 of Revelation we read where the 7th seal is opened up beginning the wrath of God. God uses the remainder of the 3 1/2 years to pour out His wrath. Because we read in Matthew 24:22 that the great tribulation of antichrist will be cut short.
Josiah, congratulations, you are the first person in 3 years to make the observation that I have not made it a point to defend the post-tribulation position. The reason being that I don’t want this site to be about promoting my own interpretation on the finer points. I am solidly in the post-tribulation camp, but the purpose of this site is to debunk the pre-tribulation position. Regardless if you are post-trib or pre-wrath, you understand that we may be called upon to endure the intense persecution that the tribulation will present and that we may also live to see the anti-christ. Also the big problem that I see with pre-tribulationism is that it transfers the admonitions that we were given specifically for the Church at that time and transfers them to the Jews, making Christians ignore the warnings. Good observation, thanks for the comments.
I think the case for a post trib rapture hinges on the fact that the dead in Christ rise first, after that we who are still alive will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. Revelation clearly places that resurrection at the end of the tribulation. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Seems clear to me.
Why are you disrespecting Jehovah’s Witnesses? They don’t believe in the rapture, and you clearly don’t believe in it either.
And I do have to throw out there that many people have gotten ahead of themselves by trying to determine when the end will come, in all denominations, peoples and tongues. Those people should admit and learn from their mistakes. I at one time got so fed up with all of the symbolism applied to certain scriptures that I walked away till they could get their act together. I believe that they are on the right track, and are always trying to improve because they openly admit their mistakes. I also believe that God is with them. I’d also like to point out that there are good people in all religions, just as there are bad. That is why people were told to get out of Babylon the Great if they didn’t want to share in her plagues. Most people don’t even know that the Bible has a theme from beginning to end. God’s purpose for humankind and the earth has not changed. So if we pray and put our trust in Jehovah, he will guide us in the way that we should go. He will help us understand his word.
Because Jehovah’s witnesses have a proven track record of falsely predicting Christ’s return and Armageddon. 1914, 1918, 1925, etc, etc.
I have to agree on 2 dates they were wrong, but the light gets brighter as the day draws nearer. Your hate and disrespect kinda shows your true colors, I’m sure you are familiar with the tree and its fruitage.
It was not my intention to fuss or argue, that is not who we should be. Seems we are all searching for the truth and that is what we shall all see in the end.
I think instead of quibbling over small things we should practice the fruitage of the spirit, meaning that we keep the most important commandments. Them being to love our God with our whole mind body and spirit, and love our neighbors as ourselves. That is what the instruction is for us today. And if we follow this arrangement we can not go wrong. You take care and I will keep you in my prayers.
Speaking of “fruitage,” what is the fruitage of a prophet (which is what the Watchtower claims to be).
“But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” Duet 18:20-22
Also the Jesus say we are not all searching for truth.
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.” John 3:19-20
That is not hate, that is love. Because right before that Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16 So you see truth and love go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. If you love God as you claim, you will love truth. Read John 17:17-18 and tell me what Jesus means here.
I do not know where you get your information, lol, but no one is claiming to be a prophet. And after reading that sentence is where I stopped reading anything else you had to say.
I think you are a bit confused and you should most likely get your information from the official website. jw.org/
You take care, I did not converse with you to argue. But it seems that is what you want to do. I will dust the dirt off my shoes and keep walking.
Again, take care I will not be visiting your web page again.
I got that information from the Watchtower itself.
Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197
“So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it,”
The JW website only goes back to 2000. I think they are hoping their members will have short memories.
/ I love your blog, No Pre-Trib. I just would like to share this little item I saw not long ago on the intrnet. Lord bless. /
Pretrib Rapture – how WHAT becomes WHEN
Certain rapture verses in the Bible are a WHATers paradise!
WHATers can dazzle their audience with a lot of WHAT WHAT WHAT between Gen. 1:1 and Rev. 22:21 and, while you’re not noticing, quickly sneak in their own WHEN of the rapture and ignore the Bible’s WHEN!
WHATers read all of the WHAT details in I Thess. 4:13-18, emphasize the “comfort one another” at the end, and say something like “What a comforting thought that the rapture can happen at any moment BEFORE the tribulation!”
They often add: “It wouldn’t be comforting if we had to face the Antichrist.” (Maybe they believe a lighthouse wouldn’t be comforting to sailors on a dark, stormy night but only when the sun is shining!)
WHATers avoid the next chapter (I Thess. 5) which says that the rapture’s “times and seasons” happen WHEN “sudden destruction” (the “destruction” part of the “day of the Lord”) happens.
(How can the wicked be destroyed before, or during, the time of their tribulational “reign”? Even their leader, the Antichrist, isn’t destroyed until the trib’s end!)
Now look at I Cor. 15:51-54. WHATers have a blast with the first half. They dwell on “mystery,” read “in a moment” as if it really means “AT ANY MOMENT,” spend an inordinate amount of time explaining how fast the “twinkling of an eye” is, and try to prove that “last” (in “the last trump”) doesn’t really mean “last”!
Seldom do WHATers dare to reveal WHEN we are changed into immortal bodies – but verse 54 dares to when it says our rapturous change occurs WHEN WHEN WHEN “Death is swallowed up” (same as “ended”).
Obviously the trib’s time of death can’t be ended before, or even during, the trib!
And WHATers don’t want you to realize that the “Death” quote is a paraphrase of Isa. 25:8 which even Scofield etc. agree is in a posttrib setting!
II Thess. 1:6-10 is further proof that our rapture (“rest” in vs. 7) happens WHEN the wicked are destroyed – and not several years ahead of time!
And Acts 2:34-35 and Acts 3:21 declare that Christ must stay in heaven UNTIL He comes down to earth to destroy the wicked (make them His “footstool”) and restore “all things” – so how can He leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture?
II Tim. 3:14 says we should “vet” our teachers (“knowing of whom thou hast learned them”). You can do this if you Google or Yahoo “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Left Behind or Led Astray?” (on You Tube).
What I’m wondering is this: WHEN will everyone wake up and realize that a lot of WHAT will never take the place of WHEN?
Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars NOT Pretrib!
by Dave MacPherson
Jews as well as Christians can cover up facts about the money-making pretrib rapture.
I have in mind Dr. Michael Rydelnik, a widely heard voice on the Moody Radio Network who calls himself either a Hebrew-Christian or a Jewish-Christian – take your choice.
Rydelnik just returned from another trip to Israel and couldn’t wait to use his melodious radio voice to keep his listeners in their expectant state of rapturous stupor.
In order to help shore up the worldwide collapsing of the pillar of sand known as pretrib he started off by daring to say that when the tribulation starts, the “day of the Lord” will also be happening!
Rydelnik thus covered up the fact that neither J. N. Darby nor C. I. Scofield (D. L. Moody’s colleague!) dared to stretch forward the posttrib “day of the Lord” (and tie it to their already stretched-forward rapture) in order to sustain their latter-day pretrib escapism – evidence that Christian Zionists like Rydelnik can sharply disagree with earlier Zionists!
Scofield, for example, states in his Rev. 19 notes that the same “day” is preceded by the posttrib “cosmical disturbances (Joel 2.1-12; Mt. 24.29; Acts 2.19, 20; Rev. 6.12-17).” (In Rydelnik’s case, the future posttrib sun/moon darkening has been preceded by his own scholarship darkening.)
There are historical persons that Rydelnik and other modern pretrib rapture Zionists love to cover up: eminent Hebrew-Christian scholars of the past, all of whom were NOT pretrib!
While names like Biesenthal, Caspari, Delitzsch, Neander, Rabinowitz, and Schereschewsky are practically unknown by most Christians, the names of Baron, Edersheim, and Saphir are much more recognizable.
David Baron (“The Visions and Prophecies of Zechariah,” p. 323) wrote that Paul “spoke of ‘the blessed hope and the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Tit. ii.13), for then the hope as regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully realised.”
Alfred Edersheim, who expected only one future coming of Christ for judgment, stated in “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah,” Vol. II, pp. 451-2: “We shall best succeed, not by going out of the world, but by being watchful in it.”
Adolph Saphir (“The Epistle to the Hebrews,” pp. 95-6) spoke of “the advent of the Messiah, which is yet in the future, to which both the believing synagogue and the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking, when He is to be manifested in great power, and to be acknowledged as King of the whole earth.”
Nowadays the Mideast is constantly in the news. Some feel that Israel can do no wrong while others are convinced that Israel can do nothing right. There are pretrib teachers who even believe that Israel has a special “covenant” with God apart from the Gospel.
And Christians are learning at the same time that a person can disagree with Mideast policies without being viewed as anti-Semitic or hateful. BTW, if pretribs love Jews and Israel as much as they say they do, why don’t they want to be on earth during the time of “Jacob’s trouble” to love and comfort Jewish persons?
Finally, Google “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event,” “John Darby Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
/ The preceding piece was seen on the net. Any reactions? /
The use of the word Saints in Revelation is pretty clear if you look at the whole context of the tribulation and compare scripture with scripture. In Rev 12 Satan symbolized by the dragon is said to pursue the woman who flees to the wilderness. She is pursued by the dragon for 3 and 1/2 years. Identifying the woman establishes who is in view in the remainder of the Rev when it is said for example that Satan made war with the saints in Rev 13.
So who is the woman? That is clear from comparing the symbolic language of Rev 12 with the only other place in scripture where the identical language is used, Genesisi 37. Here it becomes clear that the woman is Israel. If Satan is said to be pursuing the woman who represents Israel in Rev 12 then the Saints he is making war with in Rev 13 is clearly the remnant of Israel that com to faith in Jesus as the Messiah.
Scott when you write the word “saints” and then put in parenthesis (Christians) you are making assertions that are not in evidence. The word saints is used of old covenant believers before Pentecost who were not Christians. So there is no justification for automatically assuming Christian when you read saint.
The word saints is very clearly Christians. Yes the word saints was used of Old Covenant believers, but was it used that way in the New Testament or by John in any of his writings. Let’s let Revelation speak for itself. Rev. 14:12 says the saints have the faith of Jesus. Do Old Covenant Israel have the faith of Jesus or is that the New Covenant Church. If you are a follower of Jesus, aren’t you a Christian? Rev 19:8 says the bride of the Lamb was given the righteousness of the saints as a garment. Is the Bride wearing saintly garments the church or Old Covenant Israel? Does the New Covenant bride where Old Covenant garments? Rev. 12:17 says the remnant of the seed of the woman (woman is Israel, however, the remnant of her seed is the church) have the testimony of Jesus. Do Old Covenant believers have the testimony of Jesus or is that the church? To call the saints Christians is the only thing that makes sense in light of the scripture. To call them anything else is to ignore the text to justify your belief.
Thanks Matt for the comments. Since you formed many of your arguments as questions I will attempt to answer them. “Do Old Covenant Israel have the faith of Jesus or is that the New Covenant Church. If you are a follower of Jesus aren’t you a Christian?” Not necessarily. The disciples were followers of Jesus before the day of Pentecost and they were not Christians at the time. There were other followers of Jesus who turned away because his teachings were offensive.
In the context of Rev 19:8 you ask the question; “Is the Bride wearing saintly garments the church or Old Covenant Israel”. The bride that is assembled in heaven in Rev 19:8 is gathered for the marriage supper of the Lamb. So yes this is the Church; however, you have not shown the that they are the saints of Rev. 12, 13, and 14. They are in heaven in Rev. 19 and they follow him when he returns but this doesn’t establish when the arrive in heaven. So it is irrelevant to our discussion of saints that are still on earth during the tribulation.
You make the assertion that the remnant of the seed of the woman is the church. Then you ask; “Do Old Covenant believers have the testimony of Jesus or is that the church?”. No Old Covenant believers do not have the testimony of Jesus; however, why do you not recognize that a redeemed remnant of Israel that turn to Jesus and acknowledge Him as their Messiah during the tribulation period would.
The Old Testament prophet Hosea in chapters 5 and 6 prophesied that the Messiah Jesus would go away and not return until His people Israel turned to Him and said; “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Jesus repeated that at the end of Matt. 23 when he said; “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”. He said that to the nation of Israel the context is Jerusalem in verses 37 and 38. Paul said in Romans 11 that all Israel would be saved referring to the remnant that will turn to Jesus in the tribulation.
I am by no means ignoring the text. Read it in context comparing scripture with scripture and there is no other valid interpretation. In the light of all scripture calling them “Christians” makes no sense at all.
Thanks you for your response. You say the disciples were not Christians prior to Pentecost, I would question this argument, but let’s just say you are right. They also were not followers of Jesus in the same way that those in Revelation are. How do I know? Because prior to Pentecost they followed Jesus physically on earth believing Him to be Messiah and the Son of God. However, after Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God in them makes them sons of God because He is the spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15). So after Pentecost, they did not just follow Jesus physically with a mental belief, but followed Him spiritually as joint-heirs and sons of God. It was at this time that they were justified according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. That question was from Rev. 14:12 which says they had the “faith of Jesus”. There is a link in scripture between the faith of Jesus and being justified which means those in Revelation 14 are not following Jesus like the disciples did before Pentecost, but after when they were Christians. Romans 3:22 says the righteousness of God is manifested without the law (New Covenant) even the righteousness of God which is by the FAITH OF JESUS unto all and upon all who believe. It goes own to speak of being justified by His grace. Is this not Christians? Does this not show that those with the faith of Jesus are the church? What about Galatians 2:16? Does it not say that it is the faith of Jesus that justifies us and not the law? Is this not speaking of how to become a Christian and be justified before God? So are those who have the faith of Jesus justified before God? What evidence is there to say from scripture that people who are not Christians are justified before God? What about Galatians 3:22? Clearly the wealth of evidence from scripture shows that those who have the faith of Jesus are Christians and Revelation 14 tells us these are the saints of Revelation.
In the context of Revelation 19:8, where does this say the bride is assembled in Heaven? I do not see that in the verse or surrounding context. It says blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. It does not say they are currently partaking of the marriage supper in Heaven. As a matter of fact verse 7 says the marriage has just now come. This is at the end of the tribulation. So the wedding does not even come until the end of the tribulation. At this time the bride is given white garments and called to the wedding feast. It does not say the wedding feast takes place in Heaven. It is at this time at the end of the tribulation that the bride is called out and given the wedding garment. It is clear from scripture the rapture is the wedding. So it is at the end of the tribulation in Revelation 19 that the rapture happens and the bride is called out to the wedding feast. Not at the beginning or middle of the tribulation. As far as showing they are the saints, this is clear from their garments. In biblical days garments represented who you are. Kings wore kingly robes, priests wore priestly garments. In Revelation 19 the bride, which you admit is the church, is given white robes which are the righteousness of the saints. The saints where saintly garments. So you are saying that the word saints in Revelation 19:8 means the church, but in Revelation 12,13, and, 14 it means something different? What biblical proof do you offer for this change of definition by John? Where does John identify this group wearing the saint’s garments in Revelation 19 as a different group than the saints in Rev. 12-14? If the definition does not change, then is the church wearing the righteousness of other people that were not Christians? Does that make sense biblically? It is on you to show that these are different saints rather than for me to show they are the same. This verse is absolutely relevant to our discussion because it defines the saints as the church.
As far as the remnant of the seed of the woman being the church rather than just a redeemed remnant of Israel Revelation 12 makes it clear. From what you said in your original post, you agree that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. So let’s break it down.
Revelation 12:13-14 – The dragon (Satan) is angry that he was cast to the earth and therefore begins to persecute the woman (Israel). As a result, the woman (Israel) was given protection from Satan in the wilderness for 3 ½ years.
Revelation 12:15-16 – The serpent (Satan) tries to flood the woman (Israel) out of the wilderness, but the ground opened up and swallowed up the water so the woman (Israel) would be safe.
Revelation 12:17 – The dragon (Satan) was angry because of this and went to make war with the “remnant of her seed” who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
Notice that verse 17 does not say the remnant of the woman (Israel). It does not say that these are the remnant of Israel, but rather the remnant of Israel’s seed. The question is then, who is the seed of Israel. Well first, we must look earlier in Revelation 12. It says the woman gave birth to a male child who was caught up to Heaven and would rule the nations with a rod of iron. We know from other scriptures that this male child is Jesus who came from Israel. The word “remnant” in verse 17 means remaining or the rest of. So Satan makes war with the rest of Israel’s seed. The first seed of Israel, Jesus, was caught up to Heaven, so Satan then attacks the rest of the seed of Israel. Who came out of Israel after Jesus the first seed who would be Jesus’ “brothers” and therefore joint-hears with Him and “sons of God”. The church is the only one that fits. If it said, the dragon went to make war with the remnant of the woman who kept the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus, then I would agree that it is the remnant of Israel that has accepted Jesus, but it doesn’t say the remnant of the woman, but the remnant of her seed.
Hosea 5, 6, Matthew 23, and Romans 11 are all indeed speaking of national Israel being saved. However, Zechariah 12 makes it clear that this happens at the end of the tribulation at Jesus’ return when the see Him and look upon the one they pierced. The “remnant” of Israel will be saved at the end of the tribulation, not during it. Yes, some Jews will accept Christ during the tribulation as they do now, but the full remnant will not be saved until the end.
I do not believe you are purposely ignoring the text, but you are indeed doing it, in innocence I am sure. Yes, read it in context comparing scripture with scripture and there is no other valid interpretation. In the light of all scripture calling them “Christians” is the only thing that makes sense.
Matt, you made some excellent points. Thank you for your comments!
Matt, I absolutely agree with you that the disciples prior to Pentecost were not following Jesus the way they were after Pentecost. I also agree that the Saints in Rev. 14 have the faith of Jesus and are following Jesus. You are missing my key point. So I will simply ask you again why do you not see that the remnant of national Israel that will be turned to the Messiah would be said to have the faith of Jesus and will be followers of Jesus. You are using the fact that they have the faith of Jesus to prove they are the Church. That is not proof that the saints in Rev. 12, 13, and 14 are the church as we know the remnant of national Israel will be converted and follow Jesus during the tribulation. So it is consistent for that language, “followers of Jesus” and “have the faith of Jesus” to be applied to a remnant of Israel that turn to Jesus during the tribulation period. You say that only happens at the end of the tribulation period yet Rev. 12 makes it clear that the dragon is persecuting the woman for 3 1/2 years.
Rev. 19:1 “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven…” This is clearly a description of a scene in heaven. Verse 1 “people in heaven”, Verse 4 “…the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne…”, Verse 5 “And a voice came out of the throne, saying Praise our God, all ye his servants..”. I don’t know how you can miss it. As far as verse 7 goes it says the marriage supper is come it does not say the bride is called out at that moment. The great multitude is already there, in heaven, verse 6.
The woman of Rev. 12 is literal Israel. When the dragon (Satan) is cast to the earth he persecutes the woman. Rev. 12:13 In verse 17 it says the dragon is angry at the woman (national Israel) and makes war with the remnant of her seed.
The old testament prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah make it clear that during the time of Jacobs trouble which is defined as the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation God will purge the nation of Israel leaving a remnant, Ez 20 and use the anti-Christ as a rod of correction to chastise Israel, Is 10.
Now I have presented to you passages that tell you explicitly that God has a plan to use satan and the beast to purge and leave a remnant of Israel that turn to him in the tribulation period. And yet you jump through all kinds of hoops to make the remnant of the seed of the woman, who you admit is Israel, the church.
If the Woman is literal Israel then her seed are literal Israelites. You are using very contrived logic to make them the church. Jesus is the first seed of the Woman and his “brothers” are the remaining seed. You are reaching to say the least. The clear answer is there for you.
I will pray that you see it.
The Woman is Israel, but the quedtion is, “What is Israel?” Paul makes it clear that not all who are descendent from Abraham are Israel, but only those who have faith. The Woman is Zion, the Heavenly City, the New Jerusalem, the Bride, who gives birth to the Manchild…first the Head (called the “crowning” in obstetric terms) at His First Coming, and finally the Body at His Second Coming. Christ the Head, along with His Body make up the Manchild, who then marries the very one who gave Him birth…the New Jerusalem that is above (not earthly Jerusalem as the sign appears in Heaven)…a wondrous mystery.
“Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion (the heavenly Jerusalem) travailed (through tribulation) she brought forth her children (the Manchild).” Isaiah 66:7-8
Noah and His family are safe in the Ark for seven days while all kinds of clean and unclean animal enter the Ark. These are the same clean and unclean animals that Peter saw ascend into Heaven in a white linen sheet. The Door is closed AFTER seven days and the Ark ascends AT THE SAME TIME as the rains fall.
Pharaoh and His armies are destroyed by God’s wrath AT THE SAME TIME as the Israelites ascend out of it.
Lot escapes out of Sodom AT THE SAME TIME as fire falls from Heaven.
The Church chooses seven men. Two Witnesses… Stephen is martyed as he witnesses, Philip is raptured as he witnesses.
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Seven men are in a boat on the Sea. Two Witnesses recognize Jesus on the shore…Peter (who had fallen away, but later overcame) puts on His outer garment and jumps into the waters of Tribulation while John (who remained faithful) rows safely to shore in the Boat. They partake of a meal at the same time.
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Jesus in in the Garden of Gethsemane, a crushed olive bring forth oil. It is His Hour of Trial. Peter, James and John (Sons of Thunder, which brings to mind the Two Witnesses and the Seven Thunders). It is their hour of trial as they are told to watch and pray, lest they fall into tempation. Peter falls away and the cock crows, a picture of the resurrection/rapture in the last watch of the night (the end of the Tribulation). Later Peter has a discussion with Jesus about whether John will live or not. Peter becomes a picture of one martyred to bring glory to God, while John becomes a picture of one who remains alive until Christ’s coming. Both entered the “hour of trial” (Revelation 3).
Doug, how many Olive Trees are there in Romans 11? Which one is Israel and which one is the Church?
Paul tells us that “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, nor all the children of Abraham.” It is not the children of flesh (physical descendants) who are God’s children, but rather children of the Promise, those who believe. The physical nation of Israel was never the elect chosen of God. True Israel was only and always a remnant chosen by grace who had faith, as Abraham did. The entire nation left Egypt, but only a remnant entered the Promised Land. The entire nation went into exile into Babylon, but only a remnant returned. Unbelieving Israel are hardened in unbelief and cut out of the Tree. They cease to be Israel.
Paul also tells us in Ephesians that in Christ, Gentiles are made fellow hers with Israel, sharers in the Promise. They become part of the Commonwealth of Israel and together become “one new man.”
Israel then is made up of the believing remnant of Israel with believing Gentiles grafted in. This is the Church, the Olive Tree.
As for the Woman, the physical nation of Israel is a type and shadow of the spiritual nation. The Woman is the Heavenly City, the New Jerusalem, the Bride. It is not the physical nation on earth. The sign appeared in Heaven.
The Church therefore is Israel. It is built of the foundation of the apostles and prophets …all of them Israel. The Heavenly City the New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ has the names of the twelve apostles written of its foundation and the names of the twelve tribes written on its gates. Together, the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints, make up the Holy City, the Church, the Temple, the Body.
In the book of Ephesians Paul makes it clear that the Church was the goal and purpose of God from the beginning. In the letter to the Corinthian church, he states that the things which happened to Israel were types and warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. The Church is the culmination of all that God has done. Through the death of Christ on the cross, Jesus has made all saints through all ages “one new man.” To claim that God has two peoples, an earthly and a heavenly, is to undo what was done on the cross. It is heresy. All of the promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in his Seed, Jesus Christ. It is He, and all who are in Him (His Body, the Church) who will inherited every promise during the Millennium.
God has not set Israel aside during the so-called “Church Age.” A partial hardening has happened to Israel, but a chosen remnant is still being saved by grace. And this hardening will last until the fullness of the Gentiles are grafted into the Tree. When does the hardening end? It ends when the Redeemer comes out of Zion to turn godlessness away from Jacob. In other words, the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the Second coming, which means the Body of Christ is still being built throughout the tribulation period. The “saints” are therefore the Church.
THE RESTRAINER – The “he” that restrains is the fourth living creature in the throne room of God who was given authority to loose and restrain the fourth horseman, corresponding with the fourth beast of Daniel 7.
This restraint is in place until the end of the 6th seal. Then the restraint of the fourth living creature is removed, the 7th seal is opened, and Satan is allowed to manifest his worst during the final 3.5 years. The Holy Spirit remains in the earth, as does the kingdom of God, in the form of the two witneseses, the metaphorical 144,000, who have been sealed and redeemed as “firstfruits unto God and the Lamb,” corresponding with the end time Philadelphian believers who
are protected during the final 3.5 years of “great tribulation,” and with the woman, who is spiritual Israel, the Israel of God in Christ,
protected in the “wilderness” (i.e. untainted by the world) just as their prophetic forerunners, the Hebrew children, who were protected in the “fire” in the very presence of the Lord.
But, of course, Satan, is desperate that the body of Christ not be empowered and encouraged by this truth.
Hello Jim, I hope you don’t mind my asking a couple of questions related to your comments. You seem to be relying on an allegorical method of interpretation and are making passages symbolic that in my estimation are quite literal.
What is your justification for making the woman of Rev 12 refer to spiritual Israel when the bible uses the identical language in Gen 37 to refer to literal ethnic Israel? And what possible justification can you offer for making the 144,000 a metaphor for the Philadelphian believers? They are called out very specifically as being from the literal 12 tribes of ethnic Israel. The language of Rev 7 does not allow for the type of interpretation you seem to be practicing. The twelve tribes of ethnic Israel are not symbolic they are literal and when the Bible says the 144,000 witnesses come from those tribes there is no justification to make that mean something other than what it says. I would welcome any reasoning you would offer for your interpretation.
Thank you for your consideration.
Doug: I was a Dispensationalist until Don Harris of Think Red Ink Ministries gently and politely suggested that I examine the origin
of that theology. In humility I did examine the origin of that theology all the way back to the anti-Reformation popes, and that caused me to be willing to examine what is really a SOTERIOLOGICAL theology with eschatalogical extensions.
The true issue in being able to reasonably discuss the theology is LITERALISM. What is currently illustrated by the division of the body of Christ into thousands of denominations and billions of rabbinic opinions concerning the truth, promises, and commands of God is that
the intellect of man, apart from revelatory illumination by the Spirit DIVIDES. And the intellect of man illuminated by the Spirit UNITES.
If you and I are in disagreement concerning any theological question, we are demonstrating that at least one of us is incorrect, and, quite possibly, both of us are incorrect.
It is consistent throughout biblical scripture that it is not the intent of God for mankind to receive the absolute, immutable rhema truth of God on the basis of intellectual discernment alone (i.e. Literalism)
In fact He deliberately hides the “hidden manna” and “the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of God” in parables, allegory, shadows and types, metaphors, etc. throughout the entirety of scripture.
Keep in mind that the LORD told His disciples that He was sending us the Spirit of truth (on the first Pentecost) to supernaturally “guide” us into ALL truth, including truth to come, and we are advised, even in the OT that God “hides” the “hidden manna” of His revelatory Word for us to search out like buried (deliberately hidden) treasure, and the fact that He told Daniel to “seal up” His book (so that it could NOT be discerned intellectually, or even spiritually, UNTIL it would be revealed to the generation for whom it was intended…(Daniel 12:4) It, therefore, becomes obvious that it is absolutely necessary to have a revelatory (Spirit “guided”) understanding of the Word of God in order to receive it and confirm it by faith.
There is not a single instance in the written Word where you can demonstrate that it is God’s specific intent that we have a strict literal understanding of His truth, promises, and commands apart from illumination by the Spirit.
The LORD even explained that the simple ten commandments required a revelatory understanding in order for us to obey.
So as long as you stick to the literalist position it is not possible for us to come into agreement. True agreement and unity in the TRUTH is only possible through the Spirit. All else is speculation and opinion, even when it is correct. And LITERALISM is what condemned the intellectual giants of Israel when the LORD was present among them.
Your desire for the truth, though, will ultimately lead you to the truth. In that regard I pray for your blessing.
Jim, thank you for your comments and while I would certainly agree with you that the study of the scripture is a spiritual endeavor and it is vain to attempt to understand God’s revealed truth apart from the Spirits guidance. I would take issue with your assertion that God deliberately hides truth. Citing the example of Daniel related to eschatological truth and then applying that to all of God’s truth is unwarranted. It is true that there are hidden mysteries in the scripture that must be sought out. It is also true that all truth must be sought with a humble heart in subjection to the Holy Spirit. However what you are suggesting is that God hides all truth and that only the spiritual elite have access to it by some mystical understanding unavailable to others.
I absolutely agree with you that if we are in disagreement on a theological issue then one or both of us are in error. So how do we judge between the two. If the written word is nothing more than allegory, symbolism, and types then we have not reliable authority at all by which to judge truth. I would contend that God intended for us to understand his revelation and that He says exactly what He means in his written word.
There are some that teach that Jesus was speaking of water baptism in John chapter 3 when he said to Nicodemus that you must be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God. They would claim to be spirit filled men that have discerned this truth by the Holy Spirit. However they can be judged to be in error by a proper grammatical reading of the text. Jesus said in verse 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. He was clearly referring to a second birth which is spiritual. The first birth (the water birth) was physical. This is confirmed by the fact that this is exactly how Nicodemus understood Jesus when he said in verse 3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus asked “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” The reference Jesus makes when he says a man must be born of water and of the spirit is in response to Nicodemus to explain that there are two births, the physical (water) birth and the spiritual birth.
What I am demonstrating is that this can be understood to be the intent of Jesus words by simply believing what is said in context and applying the normal grammatical meaning to the words.
Now when it comes to understanding the spiritual truth of the new birth and being born again that is indeed a work of the spirit to reveal to an individual the spiritual need of the new birth and bring about that change in there life.
I would encourage you to consider the consequence of you hermeneutical approach to the scripture. You take liberties that are unwarranted to apply some mystical meaning to a passage without any boundaries. You can bend the scriptures to whatever suits your position under the guise of a deeper spiritual understanding regardless of what the words say.
I would never claim that the scriptures can be understood on the basis of intellectual discernment alone. However on the other extreme you make the Holy Spirit guilty of contradicting the written word that He inspired.
A false charge. Biblical history and genealogies are obviously discernible and easily confirmed by anyone. And there is only one truth, the truth intended by the author. But men of intellect and exegetical training have continually misinterpreted the absolute, immutable, didactic truth available in scripture, BECAUSE they did not have the “guidance” and “confirmation” of the author, and through their influence these have established various false doctrines that became strongholds assaulted against the truth. Such is Dispensationalism and its poisoned fruit of a pre-tribulation “rapture” in denial of the Spirit-revealed, Spirit-confirmed fact that natural Israel is no longer in view as far as the covenant promises of God are concerned. Natural Israel IS in view, but not in any good way.
Satan works out ALL of his schemes on the chessboard of man’s intellect, and unless we “see” and “hear” the true Master our intellects are inadequate.
Thank you for your willingness to correspond, and may God richly bless you know and respond and teach the truth of God.
Well Jim I fear we will not be able to make any headway towards an understanding of truth. You make statements that are obviously true and that we can both agree on, “there is only one truth, the truth intended by the author” and “men of intellect and exegetical training have continually misinterpreted the absolute, immutable, didactic truth available in scripture, BECAUSE they did not have the “guidance” and “confirmation” of the author”. I would agree with both of those statements.
But then you make assertions regarding a pre-tribulation rapture and claim that natural Israel is not in view as far as God’s covenant promises without any scriptural support for your assertions.
Our correspondence began when I asked you to offer biblical justification for your assertion that the 144,000 that are sealed in Rev 7 are not literal Israel as the text would clearly indicate given the specificity of the text in referring to 12,000 from each literal tribe of ethnic Israel. You deflected by attacking literalism in general.
You claim that my view is false doctrine. The scriptures are the authority by which I judge false doctrine and you seem to be unwilling to have your assertions judged in the light of the Word.
I believe my Pre Tribulation position is consistent with scripture and I have sought the Holy Spirits confirmation of that and received it. I can assert that it is Spirit-revealed and Spirit-confirmed. Now how do any of us judge that statement? How can it be confirmed or denied? Is it not by the words of Scripture?
I have challenged an assertion you made about the 144,000 witnesses by appealing to the words of the text. Are you willing to defend your position based on what the scriptures say or are you simply going to claim spiritual superiority. I am a dispensationalist and I am convinced of a Pre Tribulation rapture. I am willing to have that challenged and defend it based on the scriptures.
If we can’t agree that the scriptures are the basis for truth then we have no foundation upon which to have a discussion. I would be glad to continue this dialogue if you are willing to have it based on a discussion of the text.
What I would be interested in hearing from you, then, would be your understanding of WHY God would select 12,000 Jewish male virgins from each of twelve tribes, then seal them for protection during the final “hour” of “great tribulation,” AND redeem them as “firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.” (Firstfruits of the New Covenant wheat harvest). This is inconsistent with the fact that there are no covenant promises to national, ethnic Israel from the resurrection of Jesus forward, and these 144,000 (metaphorically representing the perfection of spiritual Israel during the 4th, 5th, and 6th seals of “tribulation”) are demonstrated to be present and “protected” from being harmed by the judgments of the 7th seal, indicating that they have a purpose during the “hour of trial that will come upon the whole world.” And that purpose is obviously to bring in the harvest of an uncountable number from every nation, tribe, and tongue in the face of the worst Satan can do through his beast kingdom.
Thanks Jim I really appreciate your response and the question. I think it is a very important question that gets to the heart of what the tribulation period or Daniel’s 70th week is all about. The first point that I think is very important is simply an acknowledgement that whether I understand “WHY” or not it is what God said he was going to do. I would never presume or claim to understand everything that God does. But I begin by accepting as truth everything He says He will do.
Lets talk about covenant promises to Israel. The prophet Joel in chapters 2 and 3 describes the Day of the Lord. Joel describes it in similar fashion to how the Lord Jesus describes it in Matthew 24. Joe 2:10 “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining”, Joel 2:30-31 “And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” This matches the Lord’s description in Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”.
Right in the midst of the description of the judgment that is poured out on the Day of the Lord there is a plea for Israel to repent and be redeemed. Joel 2:12-14 “Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?” This is clearly ethnic Israel;
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them…
Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion…
Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel…
Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem…
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel…
Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joel 3 ends in a description of the Millennial kingdom as Christ is ruling from Jerusalem when He is the hope of his people the strength of the children of Israel.
For the sake of brevity I will not try to go through the host of passages in the Old Testament that prophesy of the redemption of the remnant of Israel that is yet future. I will simply list some of them here: Is. 11, Zec. 8, and Ezekiel 20. Ezekiel 20 is of special interest because it describes the backsliding of Israel that led to their dispersion and then the promise is made in verses 33 – 38 to gather them from the countries where they were scattered and to purge out the rebels leaving a remnant that will be blessed as described in Joel.
So the 144,000 Jewish male virgins will testify of Christ the messiah in order to turn that remnant to the Lord. This is why Jeremiah 30:7 refers to the Day of the Lord as the “time of Jacob’s trouble” and says he will be saved out of it. Now the rest of the world will have opportunity to partake of that same redemption as you describe there is a harvest from every nation, tribe, and tongue. This is consistent with the Old Testament promise to Abraham that in his seed will all the nations of the earth be blessed.
Paul confirms the future redemption of Israel in Romans chapters 9-11 and particularly in 11:25 and 26 where he says; “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob”
You cannot spiritualize this and make it apply to the church because Paul says the blindness that happens to Israel is there to this day, verse 8, and draws the distinction between Israel and the gentiles saying the blindness will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. I interpret the fullness of the Gentiles to refer to the church age.
I hope that answers your question.
OK final round for me. Then you can have the last word.
It is clear that the one and only redemptive covenant for the remnant of fallen mankind from Adam forward is the covenant between the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, THE “seed” of Abraham for whom the covenant was intended before the foundations of the world, and through whom the entire world would be blessed.
National, ethnic Israel held the title deed to the covenant promises until they were fulfilled to the only seed of Abraham who was able to fulfill the Law and qualify for the inheritance. From that point forward all who believe by faith as well as those who are “reckoned” as righteous on whatever basis our sovereign Father demands are included in this one and only redemptive covenant as “joint heirs.”
The parable of the vine and the branches illustrates that Jesus is the vine, and Jews were the natural branches. But these were debauched because of unbelief, and Gentiles were grafted into the vine. Yet, Jews, though debauched, can also be grafted back into the vine through faith. The vine represents the one and only redemptive covenant of God in Christ, and it demonstrates that both Jews and Gentiles are equally joined to Him by being grafted in through faith with neither having some unique favor of God upon them after being grafted into the one and only Vine and source of covenant life and blessing.
So it is very strange to identify the 144,000 as some special group of Jews who suddenly, and for no stated reason (their “virginity” and mouths that utter no lies are qualities related to their redeemed status, not their natural status), appear and become missionaries to the multitude in the final 3.5 years. And this, supposedly, after God rewards a failed church by pulling them out of game before the serious trouble starts, though He commissioned them until the very last day.
These same 144,000, though not mentioned anywhere prior to this time, are sealed in the forehead with the name of the Lord, and these experience the completion of their redemption as “firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.” (Jesus is the firstfruits of the entire harvest, which begins with the barley crop, and these are the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, demonstrated as being two wheat loaves, representing both Jew and Gentile as “one new man” in Christ. Thus the sealing of the 144,000 identifies them as being of the body of Christ. (Perhaps a special Jewish missionary team?)
These are also demonstrated to remain on earth during the 7th seal, but as fully redeemed beings, they cannot be hurt by the “fire” or by Satan. Then we have another group, the Philadelphian believers (of the church) who have endured and persevered during the 4th, 5th, and 6th seal “tribulation” who have the promise of being “kept” (protected) during the “hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world,” which we know to be the 3.5 years of “great tribulation.”
The similarity between what we KNOW is the church during the final 3.5 years and what you believe to be some special group of Jews would be a serious conundrum for me if I still held the dispensational point of view.
But you are correct in identifying the “great and terrible day of the Lord” (10 Tishri, the feast of atonement) that takes place after the “last day” resurrection of all living and dead saints on 1 Tishri (feast of trumpets), as the time when surviving Jews who have not taken the covenant mark of the beast or persecuted the church, will be redeemed. And these, along with Gentile “sheep” who have not taken the covenant mark of the beast or persecuted the church, will enter into the millennial kingdom as natural, but regenerated men and women, both of which are then members of the “Israel of God” aka “The House of Israel,” as “one new man” in Christ.
I will use my last word to simply say thank you for engaging in the dialogue. I appreciate the time you’ve invested in it. We obviously are not going to agree and so I won’t go to the trouble to answer point by point. I would just offer this observation. You seem to assert broad theological positions with very little scripture to support it. Then when faced with specific scriptural arguments you fail to respond to them. If you don’t scrutinize your theology in the light of scripture how can you trust it? Just something to think about.
Again thank you for your time. God bless.
In a following post you wrote: “You cannot spiritualize this and make it apply to the church because Paul says the blindness that happens to Israel is there to this day…”
However, you are ignoring the fact that the blindness is PARTIAL. Read the passage again. It says a hardening IN PART has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Paul says that there is even now a remnant of Israel that is saved by grace. In other words, Israel is not “set aside” during the so-called Church Age. God has continued to deal with His people, and Paul gives his own salvation as proof. The Church is not a parenthesis in the middle of God’s dealings with Israel.
Notice also when the partial hardening ends and “all Israel is saved.” It ends when the Redeemer comes out of Zion to turn godlessness away from Jacob. This is the Second Coming, and since the fulness of the Gentiles doesn’t come in until this time, the Church MUST still be on earth, being grafted into the Olive Tree.
You also wrote: “Paul…draws the distinction between Israel and the Gentiles saying the blindness will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”
The distinction that Paul is making is between the unbelieving, hardened Israel that are cut off from the nourishing sap of the Olive Tree, the Holy Spirit, and the believing Gentiles who are grafted into the remnant of believing Israel…the remnant chosen by grace. The distinction is not between the entire nation of Israel and the Church. Paul makes it clear the the believing remnant of Israel chosen by grace IS the Church, and believing Gentiles are grafted into this remnant of Israel. In Christ Gentiles become sharers in all the promises given to Abraham, becoming members of the Commonwealth of Israel. Together they are “one new man.” In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but a New Creation.
So the unbelieving branches cease to be Israel (for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel…but only the children of promise..that is, those who have the promised Holy Spirit).
So Israel is not blinded. A part of Israel is blinded and will be until the fulness of the Gentiles has been grafted in (and conversely, a remnant is being saved by grace and will continue to be until the fulness of the Gentiles is grafted in). This grafting in will continue until the Redeemer comes out of Zion and “all Israel is saved.” It is not going to end seven years prior to this.
The fact is that God is still dealing with Israel during the Church Age means He will still be dealing with the Church during the time of Jacob’s trouble. They are not mutually exclusive. God has ONE people, the Church, and when the partial hardening of Israel ends, a final remnant will be save and be grafted back into the Olive Tree. It is the SAME Olive Tree into which Gentiles are now being grafted…the CHURCH.
So here are some questions:
1) Who is the tame Olive Tree?
Answer: The believing remnant of Israel. (Unbelieving Israel are cut off, and are no longer part of the Tree.
2) Who are the Gentile grafted into?
Answer: The believing remnant of Israel. (Unbelieving Israel is no longer in the Tree).
3) When the Redeemer comes out of Zion, and godlessness is turned away from unbelieving Israel, where will they be redrafted into?
Answer: The believing remnant of Israel. (Those who continue in unbelief are lost forever).
4) So who is Israel?
Answer: The believing remnant of Israel. (Unbelieving Israel is cut off from Israel and ceases to be Israel…”Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel…but only those of faith.”)
5) Who are the Gentiles grafted into?
Answer: Israel, the believing remnant.
6) Is the Church distinct from Israel?
Answer: No, the Gentiles are grafted into Israel and together they become the Church, the Olive Tree fed by the nourishing sap of the Holy Spirit.
Jim, one more thought concerning the work of the spirit in understanding the scriptures. Literalism was not the sin of the Pharisees. It was pride and hypocrisy. The goal of literal interpretation is to understand the intent of the author, the ultimate author being the Holy spirit. Strict literalism can lead to legalism when misapplied. However that is the result of an evil heart. Literalism is not the enemy. The Spirit led understanding of God’s truth is my goal and the literal meaning of the inspired words of scripture is the starting point for that understanding. I hope that helps you understand my approach.
The Bible does not say the 144,000 are “witness.” They are called bond servants. The belief that they witness during the Tribulation is an assumption not supported by the Bible.
The Bible states very clearly that the things that happened to Israel are types. Is Jacob LITERALLY going to be standing in the sky shing on the Woman. Will the Woman LITERALLY be standing on Rachel? Will the eleven brothers LITERALLY be standing in the Woman’s crown, bowing to a LITERAL Joseph?
The bowing of the sun, moon and stars to JOSEPH is a type and shadow of ALL ISRAEL bowing to Christ, so yes it is symbolic and typological and the Woman IS spiritual Israel. She is called Zion, the New Jerusalem, the Bride, the Jerusalem that is above. She is represented by Sarah as one who is free, while earthly Jerusalem is represented by Hagar as one who is in bondage.
The things that happen to Israel are types and shadows. Paul tells us “first the natural, then the spiritual.” In the Old Testament, Israel went into physical exile to Babylon and a remnant returns. In the New Testament the Church goes into spiritual exile to mystery Babylon, and a remnant comes out of her. Old Testament Babylon is ruled by a King whose religious leaders set up an image and force all to worship is. New Testament Babylon is ruled by a King who sets up an image and a religious leader, the False Prophet forces all to worship it. In Old Testament Babylon, those who refuse to worship the image are thrown into the fiery furnace. In New Testament Babylon, those who refuse are also killed (but live).
Since Israel is defined by Paul as a believing remnant of Israel with believing Gentiles grafted in, 144,000 can easily be seen as a type of the Church. Remember, the Bride of Christ, the Holy City has the name of the twelve of Israel written on her foundation. Its walls are 12,000 stadia on each side.
As for the 144,000 being “witness.” Nowhere does it say they are witnesses. They are called bond servants. The belief that they are Jewish evangelists during the tribulation period is nowhere indicated. It is an unwarranted assumption. Remember that the Kingdom was taken away from ethnic Israel and given to a nation that would produce its fruit. And Jesus said that the Fig Tree would never again bear fruit. The Church has the testimony of Christ and it is the Church who brings in the Latter Rain Pentecost harvest.
I was a deacon in an evangelical Bible Church.
My wife and I loved the people and they loved us.
When I shared the information in the YouTube video above about the true origins of Dispensational Theology with the Deacon Board, personal attacks started coming back toward me.
I have seen this happen again and again.
Anyone who dares to question John Darby’s doctrine will have to endure the personal attacks of those who cannot let go of their legalistic doctrine.
This is the number one clue that it is a false doctrine.
Any doctrine that cannot defend itself, is most likely false.
God’s Word is like a lion. It can defend itself.
Thank you for what you are doing to speak the truth in love of God’s Word.
Looking at your six arguments refuted, I had to laugh a little because you accuse Pre Trib as “sloppy”…yet, what you offer up is seriously rank amateur stuff.
So your position, is that the Church (ie…the Body of Christ ) goes thru the entire seven years known as the “time of Jacobs Trouble” (Jer 30:7), also known as The 70th week (Dan 9:24) which was set aside for Jews and Jerusalem??
Jer 30:7-11 gives two specific reasons and results of this particular time, to which does the Church fall under??
I have. Pre Trib is the only consistently sound, eschatological position. The Rapture can’t be imminent and sign less, if it happens any but before the 70th week begins.
As to the resurrection, the translation happens for the living, the resurrection for those who has physically died prior too.
How can there be a sheep and goat judgment, if the Rapture happens at the second coming?
How come there is no war or judgment in Rapture passages? (1 Cor 15/ 1 Thess 4)
How can Christ gather the Church, but at the Second Coming, the Angels gather?
There is plenty of sound logical and extensive teachings on this, but sounds like your mind is already made up.
Good luck with that.
The usage of the word “saints” in the book of revelation is not synonymous with the church. Who is it that makes war with the saints in Revelation 13:7? It is the beast that is given his power by the Dragon, Rev 13:4. The Dragon is said to be pursuing a woman who flees to the wilderness where she is nurtured for 3 1/2 years in Rev 12. So who is this woman who is said to be clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars? The answer is found in Genesis 37 where Josph dreams a dream where he sees the sun, moon, and 11 stars bowing to him. In verse 10 Joseph’s father Jacob interprets the dream as referring to his family, Israel. So the only other place in the bible that uses the same language as Rev. 12 is a reference to the nation of Israel.
So who are the “saints” that the dragon is pursuing and making war with? They are the remnant of Israel, not the church. The usage of the term saints as it is used in Rev. 13 is defined for us in Rev. 12, read it…
Pastor Lay, thank you for your comments. I appreciate you taking the time respond to what I believe is a very important aspect of Bible prophecy, particularly for Pastors.
First, allow me to address the overarching points upon which the idea of the Church not being present during the tribulation in the book of Revelation is predicated upon from the perspective of pre-tribulationism; it is based primarily on four points. Those are:
1. Letters to the Churches are the extent to which Jesus addresses the Church(es)
2. Promise to Philadelphia to be kept from the hour of testing
3. John’s call to witness from Heaven in Chapter 4
4. Absence of the word Church after 3rd chapter
1. Beginning with the idea that Jesus finished what He wanted the Churches to know after the third chapter. This idea is easy to refute without even having to appeal to anything other than the book of Revelation itself. The preamble states in Rev 1:1-3
Notice there is a blessing for those that read and hear the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it. There is no distinction made here about who specifically should give heed to what. The implication being that the the things which must soon take place are applicable to whoever reads the book, and that there is a responsibility to give heed. This is reiterated by Jesus Himself in the 21st Chapter.
So Jesus Himself tells us that the book of Revelation is important for the Churches to give heed to, not just the first 3 chapters.
2. Being kept from the hour of testing: It is demonstrable that this does not speak of the rapture to which even some notalble pre-tribulationists like John Walvoord agree based on the Greek. “Kept from” tero ek implies protection in the midst of, not protection apart from. If it were the case that apart from was the intended meaning, the Greek adjective apo would have been used instead of ek. For the sake of argument if it was intended to mean apart from being a specific reference to the rapture, then it would imply a partial rapture view for the Churches since it was only made to one Church.
3. John being called to Heaven in Chapter four typifies the rapture: It is John that is caught up, not the Church. To suggest otherwise is to do exactly what Jesus warned about in Rev 22:18
4. The idea that the Church is not mentioned between the fourth chapter and the second coming: This is an argument from silence, but in reality it is not. When the Church is mentioned during the tribulation, pretribulationists simply deny it is the Church being referenced. Using to word “saints” to mean Israel is one of those examples. There are no examples in in the New Testament of saints being anything other than believers, and there is no reason to change the meaning to refer exclusively to Jews. With respect to the vision in chapter 12, her children are Christians with which the Dragon makes war in vs 17 “So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”
I encourage you to look at the teachings of pre-tribulationism with a critical eye. If as a Pastor part of your responsibility is to prepare the flock for the great tribulation and you fail to do that and instead tell them that they will never have to face the Antichrist and his kingdom. What will happen if they do? The New Testament is full of end-times specific warnings, we ignore them out our peril and the peril of those who hear us.
The woman of Revelation 12 is clearly Israel as I demonstrated in my previous comments therefore her seed is the remnant of Israel that will come to accept Christ as the Mesiah during the tribulation. The fact that they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ does not make them Christians. Why wouldn’t you expect the Jewish remnant that turns to Christ during the tribulation to be described in that fashion. You make the statement that the word saints is always used of believers are you suggesting that all believers of every age are the church? The church began at Pentecost. King David was a saint but he certainly wasn’t in the Church.
I thank you for addressing my comments and I hope you will receive this in the spirit it is intended. I have indeed examined the Pre Trib position very critically as I have the Post Trib and Pre Wrath positions. I just finished teaching Eschatology in our Bible Institute and I have dear friends that are post Trib and pre wrath. I am thoroughly convinced that the Pre Trib position is the only position consistent with scripture. I am finishing an article that articulates the reasons and I would be glad to share it with you if you have an interest.
Thank you and God Bless
The greater concern is the soteriological question, “Is there one redemptive covenant, or multiple redemptive covenants?” Dispensationalism claims multiple redemptive covenants. Scripture reveals a single redemptive covenant for ALL the “saints” from Adam forward, the one and only eternal covenant between the Father and the Son, and those who are included in Him by faith or by the sovereign reckoning of God.
Charles Spurgeon summed this up nicely in “Jesus Christ Inscrutable”:
A quote from “Jesus Christ Immutable” by Charles Spurgeon puts this succinctly:
“These who saw Christ’s day before it came, had a great difference as to what they knew, and perhaps in the same measure a difference as to what they enjoyed while on earth meditating upon Christ; but they were all washed in the same blood, all redeemed with the same ransom price, and made members of the same body. Israel in the covenant of grace is not natural Israel, but all Believers in all ages.”
Doug, there is ONE gospel, and ONE way to be saved. It is by being buried with Christ in baptism, and raise to life with Him. By faith we are placed “in Him,” and become part of the Church, the body of Christ. The Church was the goal and purpose of history. You cannot “come to the Messiah” or “turn to Christ” without becoming a member of the Church His Body. On the cross, when God poured out His wrath of Jesus, we were in Him, dying with Him. The Gospel was preached to Abraham. “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” It is the same Gospel preached to the Church. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Stephen was giving his defense in Acts 7:38 KJV and referring to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness:
[38] This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Old Testament saints referred to as the Church! The collective body of God‘s chosen people; hence used to denote the whole body of the faithful under the Gospel. One Body.
1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV
[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
” I said, “The resurrection.” Then he asked me the final question, “If the first resurrection happens to people that die during the tribulation at the hands of the Anti-christ, and this resurrection precedes the rapture, how can the rapture happen before the tribulation?” There was a long silence as I thought about it.”
Just because you don’t understand something, doesn’t make it wrong. You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. It just means you don’t understand. With that said, if Christ’s coming is in two stages (no matter which view you hold too), then why is it difficult to understand that our resurrection can also be in two stages.
All those who are in Christ, are part of the first resurrection. This is the resurrection unto life. The second and final resurrection is unto destruction (Daniel 12:2) Why is this difficult to comprehend?
Pete, with all due respect, there is no baby in the bathwater. The entire house of cards (to borrow another metaphor) upon which pretribulationism is built has been hobled together with sloppy exegesis. It was not a matter of misunderstanding when it comes to the the order of events, it was a matter of being confronted with the plain and simple meaning of scripture. The verses I mentioned previously simply do not comport with the pre-tribulationist position. When confronted with them, I logically, rationally, and humbly changed my position (repented). You should do the same. I appreciate your conern for my supposed lack of comprehension.
Mr Scott, I just want to say that if you give bibles to people in remote areas who are barely literate, even when they don’t have Greek,Hebrew, strongs concordance, commentaries and other aids, they still get the impression that there will be a rapture at the very end of the age. That just from plain bible study with no assistance! We don’t even need typologies to know this. The Lord keep blessing you according to Act3v26 and Eph1v3.
Please is this site currently active. I seem to seeing only old posts though blessing me.
Thanx
Femi, I can assure you that this site is still active! For I have been bombarded with your e-mails!
Pre-trib is no where taught in God’s written word.
God bless you, and keep commenting!
Hi Femi,
In answer to your question, yes the site is still active. It has just been a few months since I have written any new articles. I currently have 14 new articles in queue none of which are ready to publish. I’m also co-authoring a book on the subject with Pastor Joe Schimmel of Blessed Hope Chapel in Simi Valley. He produced an excellent video on the history of pre-tribulationism called Left Behind or Led Astray. Although I allow comments on this site, it’s not really a forum. For more active discussion I suggest checking out my Facebook page.
Hi Mr Scott, thanks for your response. I’m not on Facebook. Is there a page on this site where you condense your beliefs. I get some information from some of your replies. For example, unless I’m mistaken, you said you are not prewrath. I would therefore like to know in that realm what you believe. I don’t believe prewrath.
What do you mean by none ready to publish?
Site looks more like a forum to me! I’m glad!
Thanks so much for this site and I’m hoping to learn more from you and others who have the same spirit.
Just passing through. Don’t know if the site is still current. In interpreting Scripture, a major problem is the lack of knowledge between the English translation of the Greek and Hebrew. I’ve heard preachers from T.V. pulpits exclaim “We are not appointed to wrath” when speaking on the tribulation. These are two different words. Tribulation (Greek- thlipsis)simply means a pressing or we can say pressure, or burdens. A sense of things closing in around us.
Wrath (Greek-orge) refers to a fermenting type of punishment that has been built up. Part of it’s definition refers to breathing hard out one nostrils. Picture the old Bull with it’s head down breathing out it’s nostrils….. Out of the 45 times tribulation is used in new testament scriptures, only one mentions it along with wrath, and that’s when it’s speaking to those who reject God. In EVER OTHER INSTANCE THE individual is or will ‘go through’ the period of tribulation.
There is no precedent in Biblical Scripture wherein anyone was ever delivered from tribulation. If you don’t go through it, then thee was no tribulation. It’s akin to someone saying they were delivered from the storm when in fact the storm never reached them. There’s no logic in the comment. You’d be delivered from the storm if the people standing around you were hit with hail and rain and you remained in the sun.
Some use Noah as evidence of deliverance. Noah went through a time of tribulation. He was stuck on a ark with animals for over a year, not to mention the great pressure to get it all together in the first place. Gods WRATH was what fell on the rest of the earth. Again, wrath and tribulation are not the same. Likewise, the Hebrews in Egypt went through a ‘Pressing Tribulation’ alongside the Egyptians. Try to make bricks without straw and be punished when you can’t. The final card was WRATH directly on the Egyptians, and to any Hebrew who didn’t obey the instructions of God to Moses.
In 2nd Peter 3:3-9, and confirmed by Jude, and mentioned by Jesus, the scoffers will be former Christians (some may have never been) who likely were in the great falling away. Vs.3:4.. “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation”.. There’s an acknowledgement the PROMISE, the FATHERS, and the CREATION. The topic here is that Christ hasn’t come as expected, so those who may have once believed so may, to their own lost expectations fall away…. Something to think on.
Hi Scott,
So glad to find your website! I have a small ministry and put on a conference each year with various speakers. Pastor Joe Schimmel (his wife, Lisa; and Tony and others from his church are coming to Abbotsford, B.C.) will be one of the guest speakers June 25-27, 2015.
In the late 70’s & early 80’s I was pre-trib. Then I had a vision which showed a post-trib harpazo. I thought “hmmm, this isn’t what I’ve been taught” and begin “searching the scriptures to see if it was so” and praying for understanding of God’s Word in this matter. God showed me several passages that it clearly a post-trib rapture. I find the majority of people are pre-trib and when I try and speak to them, showing them Scripture that support a post-trib rapture…. some get very angry and just do not want to discuss it.
I’ve listened to Joe’s sermons on iTunes (his Revelations series begins in 2012) and they’re very informative. One of his concerns is that there are people (pastors/speakers/authors) who are telling Christians that if they do go through the Tribulation, that if they take the mark of the beast – they will still be saved. I think this is one of the reasons for Joe coming out with his soon-to-be-released DVD “Left Behind or Led Astray.” I personally believe that telling Christians “it’s okay to take the mark of the beast & you’ll still be saved” is an absolute 100% lie from Satan (the father of lies – John 8:44).
Any comments on these pastors/speakers/authors who are telling Christians it’ll be okay to take the mark of the beast and they’ll still be saved?
I want to be clear that I am not saying these pastors/speakers/authors are not Christians. I am saying that what they are teaching about Christians taking the mark of the beast & still being saved is false and a lie.
Thank you and God bless you, your family, and your ministry.
Hello Eileen,
Thank you for your comment! With respect to your question to me about taking the mark of the beast and the spritual state of those that teach that it is acceptable to do so:
The book of Revelation makes it abunantly clear that those who take the mark will be condemned. Rev 14:9-12.
In my mind it is doubtful that someone who teaches that Christians can take the mark of the beast and still escape God’s judgement, could still be a true Christian. The problem today is that teachers idolize their theology over God Himself. This is a perfect example. In Calvinism you have the 5th point which is called, “perseverence of the saints.” Meaning, “once saved, always saved.” But in Rev 14:9-12, God’s word says that the pereseverence of the saints means refusing to take the mark of the beast, maintaining faith in Jesus, and keeping His word.
My prayers are with you. May God bless you as you teach believers how to discern truth from error, and sheep from wolves. It is much needed.
What I cannot understand is that people can scrutinize beliefs and realize they are wrong, but cannot do the same when it comes to bible versions. Scrutinize modern versions with the same tenacity as apocolyptic beliefs, and you will see that modern versions are also from the pit. The same applies to most elevated scholars, pastors, etc.
April, the language of the Bible is not English. It is Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. The KJV is a good translation if you speak Elisabethan English. While I’m comfortable with the language of Shakespeare, most people in America today are not. Every year, the quality of education goes down and we have new generations of young adults with no sense of history or literature, and have a limited vocabulary. We are graduating people from High School that have an education level not much higher than that of a sixth grader from 30 years ago, and they lack critical thinking skills. Then you hand them a King James Bible and expect them to understand it? All translations are flawed in one way or another, some terribly so. To suggest that the KJV alone is the word of God to the exclusion of all others is an ignorant position, and it deprives the less educated the benefit of understanding God’s word, not to mention everyone that does not even speak English. Also, this blog is not a forum to debate Bible translations. If you wish to comment further, please stick to the topic.
In a key passage concerning “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,” Paul relates that the Day of Christ (NU—Day of the Lord ) cannot come unless the man of sin is revealed (2Th. 2Th. 2:1-4) and that the man of sin was being actively restrained at the time Paul wrote.
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (2Th. 2Th. 2:6-7) [emphasis added]
The Restrainer is referred to both in the neuter (what) and masculine (he) gender. This mix of gender appears in relation to the Holy Spirit Who is a person, but also described using a Greek term which is neuter in gender (πνευμα [pneuma] ). It is also said that the Restrainer “now restrains” and will continue to do so until “He is taken out of the way.” Since the man of sin has yet to be revealed,1 we can infer that the Restrainer, whoever or whatever he is, has been effectively suppressing the revelation of the man of sin for over 2000 years. When we collect the pieces of evidence concerning the identity of the Restrainer, we find:• The Restrainer is referred to as both neuter (τὸ κατέχον [to katechon] , “what is restraining”) and masculine (ὁ κατέχων [ho katechōn] , “He who now restrains”).
•The Restrainer existed in Paul’s day.
•The Restrainer has been continually and effectively restraining for nearly 2,000 years so far.
•The Restrainer is powerful enough to suppress the spiritual powers of darkness seeking to promote the man of sin.
• The restraint is global.
Numerous suggestions have been made concerning the identity of the Restrainer:
Several of these views do not necessarily involve a supernatural force. These include the Jewish state and James, Paul and the preaching of the gospel, the Roman Empire, and human government. Other views may be grouped as hostile supernatural views, which include Satan, a hostile false prophet, a general hostile force in the form of the mystery of lawlessness and human government, and the preincarnate state of the man of lawlessness. In several views ὁ κατέχων [ho katechōn] is seen as a benevolent supernatural figure rather than a hostile one. Usually an angel, such as Michael, or another type of heavenly being, such as Elijah, or a mythological being, is suggested. The most common supernatural figure suggested, though, is God Himself.2
Of the various suggestions, it would seem that the Restrainer must be supernatural in power. For what government could restrain Satan and do so continuously for 2,000 years? Yet, Scripture indicates that the Holy Spirit had just such a ministry (Gen. Gen. 6:3; Gen. 20:6; John John 16:18). It seems the best solution for the identity of the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit Himself. “The first participle (τὸ κατέχο [to katecho] ) conforms to the gender of πνεῦμα [pneuma] . The second participle ὁ κατέχων [ho katechōn] confirms the personality of the Holy Spirit.”3 If this is so, this has significant implications concerning the Rapture of the Church because we previously saw that the Holy Spirit indwells those who are baptized into the Body of Christ permanently for the day of redemption. It is impossible that the Holy Spirit could depart from indwelling the sealed believer—He cannot be taken out of the way unless all born-again believers indwelt by Him are taken with Him!
The Holy Spirit came down into the world at Pentecost in a special sense in which He had never been in the world, to dwell in the Church, the body of believers which is called the temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 1Cor. 6:19). When all believers are removed to heaven according to the promise made to the church in Philadelphia (Rev. Rev. 3:10+), . . . the Holy Spirit goes out of the world in the sense that He came into it at Pentecost.4
This was precisely Paul’s point in his letter to the Thessalonians. Some of them thought that they had already entered the Day of the Lord, but Paul reassures them that this could not be the case for the man of sin must first be revealed and he will not be revealed until the Restrainer has been taken out of the way. The Thessalonian believers would be “gathered together” to Christ before the man of sin would be revealed.
Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit includes indwelling believers and working through the church, then ἐκ μέσου γένηται [ek mesou genētai] (“taken out of the way”) could possibly refer to the removal of the Holy Spirit through the removal of the church in the pretribulational rapture. Since the passage concerns the gathering of believers, this cryptic apocalyptic reference to the Spirit, who indwells the church, is probably in view. This would be an encouragement to the Thessalonian believers to stop being alarmed about any false teaching on the Day of the Lord.5
Who or what is restraining the satanically empowered movement against God’s law and is postponing the revelation of the man of sin? Some say it is the Roman Empire. But the empire has long vanished and “the holder back” is not yet revealed. Another suggestion is that this is Satan, but it is difficult to see why he would hold back sin. Others suggest that human governments are holding back sin and the revealing of the Antichrist. But human governments will not end prior to the Antichrist’s unveiling. Nor do all governments restrain sin; many encourage it! The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. Some object to this being the Holy Spirit on the grounds that to katechon in 2 Thessalonians 2Th. 2:6 is neuter (“what is holding back”). But this is no problem for two reasons: (a) The neuter is sometimes used of the Holy Spirit (John John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13-14). (b) In 2 Thessalonians 2Th. 2:7 the words are masculine: ho katechōn , the one who . . . holds it back. How does He do it? Through Christians, whom He indwells and through whom He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. How will He be taken out of the way? When the church leaves the earth in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry through God’s people will be removed (cf. Gen. Gen. 6:3). The removal of the Restrainer at the time of the Rapture must obviously precede the day of the Lord. Paul’s reasoning is thus a strong argument for the pretribulational Rapture: the Thessalonians were not in the Great Tribulation because the Rapture had not yet occurred.6
Many suggestions have been made to identify the restraining force of 1Th. 1Th. 4:6, 1Th. 4:7. These include: (1) human government; (2) preaching of the gospel; (3) the binding of Satan; (4) the providence of God; (5) the Jewish state; (6) the church; (7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever now restrains the Antichrist of 1Th. 1Th. 4:3, 1Th. 4:4, 1Th. 4:8-10 from being revealed in the fullness of his apostasy and evil, must be more than human or even angelic power.7
The restraint which has withheld the revelation of Antichrist all these years involves both the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Some understand the neuter τὸ κατέχον [to katechon] , (“what is restraining”) as denoting the Word of God, whereas ὁ κατέχων [ho katechōn] , (“He who now restrains”) denotes the Holy Spirit. If so, the former may be the means by which the later agent performs His ministry through the Church.
Regarding the association of the Holy Spirit with the gospel, it might be said that neither the Spirit nor the gospel (or the Word of God) operate independently of each other. This is true of Creation when God spoke and the Spirit hovered over the waters (Gen. Gen. 1:1-3). The gospel came in power and in the Holy Spirit (1Th. 1Th. 1:5). Sanctification comes through both the Word and the Spirit (cf. Ps. Ps. 119:9, Ps. 119:11; 1Th. 1Th. 4:8; 2Th. 2Th. 2:13; 2Ti. 2Ti. 3:16-17). The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God (Eph. Eph. 6:17).8 Dwight D. Pentecost.
Your argument about the restrainer being the Holy Spirit is compelling. The rest is just conjecture. It is counter-intuitive for Paul to tell the Thessalonian believers that the man of sin must be revealed and then infer that the man of sin cannot be revealed because the rapture has to happen first. Paul said the man of sin would be revealed and there would be great apostasy. Those are the things that the Thessalonians were to look for. The early Church also believed that and the early Church fathers wrote extensively on the subject.
The other problem with your argument is that you make the assumption that it is the Spirit of God by virtue of His presence in the Church that restrains the Antichrist. If the Spirit is the restrainer, the Church’s presence is irrelevant, because the Spirit of God is God. As such He is omnipresent and omnipotent. His power does not require the Church to be present or absent to accomplish His will of restraining the appearance of the Antichrist.
The verse never says that what or who is restraining is “taken out of the way.” The verse is correctly translated “born in the midst.” In other word, the restraint continues u til the Antichrist comes into being. The falling away of the Church (as the Light) and not the removal most likely has something to do with the increase in wickedness and the revelation of the Man of Sin, since nothing is “taken out of the way.”
So what is the Church? It is the body of Christ. Ephesians tells us that when we believe we are marked “in Him” with a seal, the promised Holy Spirt. It is the same seal that marks the 144,000. The Body of Christ is symbolized by the Temple. The Outer Court symbolizes the body where our actions are seen by the world. The Holy Place is a secret place, symbolizing our souls, the part of us that we reveal only to fellow priests who serve in the Temple. The Most Holy Place is the place where God alone resides through His Spirit. The Body of Christ is a Temple and all those within this Body are “in Christ.”
The Ark of Noah also symbolizes the Body of Christ. It has three levels with the highest open to Heaven. All who enter the Ark through the Door are “in Christ.” Since the Ark of Noah symbolizes the Church, the Body of Christ, all those in the Ark are the Church…Noah, His family and all kinds of clean and unclean Gentiles, the same ones Peter saw lowered and raised in a white sheet up to Heaven three times. The Ark, therefore is a type of the Church made up of believing Jew and Gentile in Christ, resurrected and raptured at the same time the wrath of God falls. The Church is saved through the Flood, which Peter says represents baptism…our death and resurrection in Christ. We died in Him and will be raised in Him. Noah was in the Ark for seven days as God brought the clean and unclean into the Ark. The Door was closed and the wrath came and the Ark as ended all at the same time. In the same way, the Children of Israel (who are types and examples for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come) ascended out of the water as it covered the Egyptians armies. The Church will rise as Babylon falls, just as Lot left Sodom as the fire fell, and Rahab was rescued as the wall fell.
If Enoch represents the rapture, what represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ? Nowhere in the verse about the restrainer is there anything taken out of the way. The Greek says the that which withholds will continue until he is born in the midst…ginomai mesos. That day (the previously mentioned comming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him) will not happen until the apostasy and the revelation of the Man of Sin.
You ask: “For what government could restrain Satan and do so continuously for 2,000 years?”
Answer: Throughout history there has been a “balance of power.” Multiple nation (governments) keep one single government from dominating. Many have tried and failed. In the last days, the Bible indicates that all nations will unite into a global power. Without a balance of power, one nation and one man will rise to power…Babylon and the Beast.
Scripture also indicates that there is an angelic realm of principalities and powers and dark forces dominating all human government. The book of Daniel reveals that Gabriel and Michael fight against these powers, allowing kingdoms to rise and fall. Michael, the protector of Israel, is a very good possibility for the restrainer.
Paul states that the revelation of the Man of Sin is also accompanied by another event, namely, the apostasy of the Church. (Jesus confirms this also…”At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray one another and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm until the end will be saved…
So, when you see standing in the Holy Place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel…”)
The Church is light and salt. Jesus says that if the salt loses its saltiness it becomes good for nothing but to be trample on by men. (Interestingly, the Holy City in Revelation 11 – the same one mentioned in Revelation 21 – is trampled on for 1260 days). Jesus also tells us the the light of five Virgins will also grow dim and they will run out of oil.
If the restrainer is the Church, it is not because of a rapture that the Church ceases to restrain, but because of apostasy. The light becomes dim and the salt loses its saltiness. It becomes lukewarm. It becomes Mystery Babylon, out of whom, God calls His people.
Regardless, whatever or whoever is restraining, the text does not say that anything will be “taken out of the way.” It says that the restrainer will restrain “until he is revealed in the midst.” The actual Greek is “genomai mess,” to be born, or to come into being in the midst.” Nothing is taken out of the way, especially not the Holy Spirit. The mystery of iniquity will increase as the mystery of godliness (Christ appeared in a body…and was preached unto the nations, was believed on in the world…”) decreases.
There are several strong arguments in this forum that represent both sides very well. As for myself, I really don’t know. But I do believe it’s a strong possibility this generation could see all of these things come to pass.
As far as ‘a great falling away in the church’, I believe we’re seeing a lot of that now, with so many churches accepting homosexuality and gay marriage. Now this doesn’t mean that I’m pre-trib, but it is a point to keep in mind, seeing as so many churches are conforming to the world these days.
I believe it was Scott though, who pointed out if the pre-trib believers were wrong, how this could also cause ‘a great falling away’ as well, due to having no expectation of facing persecutions, beheadings, or some other horrible death because of their belief in Christ Our King. This also is a possibility.
This is a most interesting topic that continues to inspire movies and books galore. But I also see where satan could use this very topic as an opportunity to distract the soldiers of Christ The King, toward spending too much time debating this issue with each other, while we could be spreading the Gospel to the unsaved, comforting those in need, and letting Christ’s Light shine through us to the rest of the world, so that Christ The King gets all praise and glory, because there is so much work to be done. In the meantime, keep an eye on the geo-political events and the many other signs that are noted in scripture. Pray and be watchful.
No, I am NOT bashing this forum or its contributors by any means. I’ve read some most interesting positions from both sides. satan is just so good in finding ways to hamper us in bringing the Light Of Christ to the world.
Tim, Thanks for what I believe are your sincere and heartfelt comments. All of the things that you mentioned that Christians should be focused on for God’s glory, I agree with. I would like to expand on one of your points just a little if you’ll bear with me.
You mentioned that Satan may be using this issue as a distraction. Again, I agree with you up to a point. In fact I have witnessed Christians on both sides of this issue behave in ways that are dishonoring to the Lord, by being arrogant and hateful among other things. I think we would both agree that this is not what God wants from His representatives. Having said that, we are also commanded to contend for the faith. The second coming of Christ is a key and integral part of the faith that we as Christians are to profess and believe, and when error exists within the Church, we are commanded to confront it. Jesus said in John 17 in His prayer, “Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.” This blog was established with this in mind. It is my belief that the introduction of pre-tribulationism itself is satanic for reasons you already mentioned in your comment. Because of this, I feel compelled to rise up against it despite all the criticisms that have been leveled against me because of it. Please pray for me that as I continue this work, that it would be done in a way that honors the Lord. Thanks and God bless.
Hello Scott, and Thanks for your reply.
Funny that you mention the arrogance and hateful attitudes of some christians, because in recent weeks I have encountered the same, and wasn’t actually expecting it. I’m going to venture away from the pre-trib issue for just a bit, if I may, then come back to it.
I can see though, how a lot of church going believers (not christians) could fall into this hateful, arrogant attitude. satan is also a believer, and trembles with fear, at the very mention of Christ.
So there are many who instead of taking that next crucial step with their belief, as the thief on the cross did, by begging Christ to forgive them and be their Saviour and Redeemer, instead they choose to place their eternal security in church attendance, offerings, good deeds and works before man in combination with their belief, which is nothing more than a one way ticket to hell.
The Covenant with God through the Blood of Christ is one’s only eternal security. The one that begs Christ for eternal life and remission of sin, becomes a new spiritual creature through the Holy Spirit which now dwells within this person.
Automatically this person yearns to become a liason for Christ to the world, as Christ is now their only means to God The Father. And what’s even more, being used by Christ to uplift His name and presence, is another gift beyond any value this world can imagine. It’s an honor and a privilige, along with being our christian duty. This totally different from the self reliant works before man, works that are without the Blood of Jesus and outside the Covenant that God has offered us.
So my point is, when a person’s heart falls in line with the above, Christ will still shine through them, even in disagreement
on specific biblical topics. No offense to you, Scott, but it would be great if the pre-trib is correct, and we’re raptured out of this chaotic world. But we all need to pray for the courage from Christ Jesus, to be able to look death in the eye with no fear, should that day come we have to face a guillotine, firing squad, or what ever the anti-christ has in store, should we still be here.
God has given you a calling for this, so most definitely see it through, so that pre-trib believers are spiritually ready for anything no matter how the chronological order of events unfold.
God bless you and all your loved ones!!!
I’ve been working on a Posttrib book for some time.
714.225.6282
in the greater Los Angeles area.
Prophecy cannot be interpreted on the basis of proof texts alone. All prophecy must be perfectly related to the entire matrix of revelatory doctrine, and a pre-trib “rapture” cannot be supported UNLESS you also believe that God has a reason to pull the church out of the game before it is finished. And the reason put forth by dispensationalists is the FUTURE redemption of national, ethnic Israel. But if you believe that Jesus “hath redeemed Israel” at His resurrection, as Zechariah prophesied then you cannot support a pre-trib “rapture.”
The key to the truth is not sword play with proof texts, but
in understanding that the “promise” was never intended for national, ethnic Israel. It was always, even before the creation, intended for THE “seed” of Abraham, Jesus Christ and all those from Adam forward who are or will be included in Him by grace through faith.
In Charles Spurgeon’s words: ” Israel in the covenant of grace is not natural Israel, but all Believers in all ages.”
Off hand the problem with your theory is this. It is clear that there is a bride of Christ, but do not forget that God also has a wife and that is not the same as the bride of Christ. The tribulation is for God to deal with Israel and to save his wife.Hosea 5:15 is intended for the Hebrews. Tribulation time is when Israel will in there suffering unite and cry out to God and repent of their sin,”singular,” and be saved. I assume by your argument that you do not see any difference in the saints before the alter and those under the alter? Revelation 1:19 interesting verse. All laid out as to order. The church is in the 1st 3 chapters and we can clearly see that at the beginning the church IS before Christ, and the Father at the alter in heaven. Are we to be transported back down here so we can go through the tribulation period? Since it clearly states we are there.
Ben
Ben, Objection: You are assuming facts not in evidence.
So you’re saying Jim’s theory has all these problems, when you have not established that anything you have said is true. Instead you have merely made assertions.
Ben, Instruction: The simplest way to “see” the truth about prophetic doctrine, is to acknowledge that there is only one (1) redemptive covenant for fallen mankind from Adam forward, and that one covenant is between the Father and the last Adam, Jesus of Nazareth, the “seed” of Abraham for whom the covenant was intended from before the creation. Jesus is the mediator of that one redemptive covenant, and there is no other covenant whereby men can be redeemed. National, ethnic Israel was, from the beginning, only temporarily in possession of the title-deed to the promised covenant, and now that the covenant is complete in Christ, for whom it was intended, there is NO future covenant of redemption available to national, ethnic Israel apart from their inclusion in Christ by grace through faith.
Scott, you ARE an early riser!
Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
and hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant. Luke 1:68-72
ISRAEL HAS ALREADY BEEN REDEEMED.
Unfortunately the majority are unwilling to listen to what the Scripture actually says and only want to be spoon fed from the pulpit. The Pre-Tribulation doctrine has been creating a weak and complacent Church that is not going to be prepared for what is coming. Why is modern man so conceded to believe that their lives are more righteous then those that were persecuted prior? When the Church persecuted believers during the dark ages, their sacrifice was no less then the Christians that were killed by the Romans. Compared to their example, modern Christians are luke warm and unwilling to live according to God’s instruction. We make excuses for our actions instead of sacrificing for our Faith. Combined with Capitalism, we have created a society that overlooks God’s teachings and replaces it with our selfish ambition toward worldly possessions. If there was a generation that deserved to be Raptured prior to the Tribulation, we are surely not it! I have completed a detailed study on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in my new book “Submissive Wisdom“. It is available on Amazon and Kindle and I encourage anyone who wants to know what the Scripture actually says to check it out. Our only instructions is to Watch and Endure. Thank you for this article and your efforts to get the Truth out to all those who are willing to listen!
Clinton Kowach
Hello Scott, hey another thing. No one knows the time of his return, as a thief in the night.We all know the verses. It also makes clear that although the believer will not know the exact time, he should know the season. I do believe that. I would also say that, that can not be the second coming of Christ, but the one where he comes in the air. All anyone needs to do to know the day of the second coming is to know the day that the enforcing of the treaty,”covenant” for seven years with the Hebrew people starts. Than you just need to count the days. It is something to see in the Word of Christ. how he seems to want everyone to know exactly when the 2nd coming is. So many verses about the time, days everything, yet almost completely silent about the time of the thief one! Last thing, actually I have a lot, but trying to keep it short. Can you answer this? What of Enoch, what of Lot. We have many examples of how God thinks and acts and how he feels about his righteous ones. Even in the book of Revelation God says to the saints in Babylon to come out of there so he can pour his wrath on it. All his examples in the word show that God will not rain down wrath until the righteous ones are removed. The saints of the tribulation became saved after the start of it. That is why they are underneath the alter. Spoken of in Rev:6 Bottom line is why would God just up and change his way of doing things? I have been taught that God does not change. Anyway, hope to here from you. Have a blessed day!
Ben
There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to the whole “thief in the night,” concept as it relates to Christ’s return. In fact I’m going to make it the subject of my next posting so don’t think I’m evading your point, I will address it more fully soon. If you subscribe to my RSS feed you’ll be updated when the new article comes out. But as it comes to your assertion about 2 distinct returns of Christ, I addressed that in this article.
You said’ “We have many examples of how God thinks and acts and how he feels about his righteous ones.” I agree, here are some examples:
I could go on, and on, and on……….
I’ll leave it to you to look up the references. So you’re right God does not change. Keep reading and seeking Him first and His Kingdom.
What of Enoch? The belief that Enoch is a type of the Rapture is pure speculation. If he is a type of the PreTrib rapture, then the flood of Noah should have followed immediately after he was taken. No, rather, I believe that Enoch is a type of the catching up of Christ at His ascension. Hebrew tells us that he was taken because he pleased God. “This is My Son, with Whom I am well pleased.” The flood of Noah, however, IS a type of the Rapture. Noah entered the Ark seven days BEFORE the rains fell. Being in the Ark is a type of being IN CHRIST, Who is the Ark. In Christ, the Church will be kept safe throughout the Tribulation (the seven “days”). AFTER the Tribualtion the Bowls of Wrath will be poured out AT THE SAME TIME as the Church rises on and above the flood waters (the Rapture). If you look at the typology of the Feasts of the Lord, Jesus fulfilled the spring Feasts on the very days they were celebrated. He will do the same with the fall Feasts. AFTER the Tribulation, the time of testing and trial which purifies the faithful, making their faith like gold tried in the fire, and making them spotless and without blemish, removing the bonds of the flesh through the fiery furnace…AFTER they OVERCAME by the blood and the Word of their testimony, They along with God’s people throughout all ages, will be resurrected and raptured. This “Wedding” will happen on the Feast of Trumpets. Then, during the days of Awe, while the Church is in Heaven, she will stand “naked” before her Husband at the Judgement Seat, and He will then cloth her in white linen. At the same time, during the Days of Awe, the Bowls will be poured out on the earth, and Babylon will be destroyed. On the Day of Atonement, Christ will return on a white horse with His Bride, save Israel and destroy the Beast and His armies at Armageddon. Then the Church will sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob at the seven day Wedding Feast, otherwise known as the Feast of Tabernacles, and Jesus will “drink anew” the cup. In the mean time, there is another feast, the Great Supper of our God in progress. The birds will be feasting on the dead. Later, all the survivors of all the nations that attacked Jerusalem (which the Bible says will be scarcer than gold) will celebrated each year at the Feast, or receive no rain.
What of Lot? Well, Lot is a picture of a Post Trib rapture. The men of the city attempt to “know” the Two Angels is a picture of the persecution and trial of the faithful during the Tribulation. The two angels who escort Lot and his family out of Sodom is a picture of the Two Witnesses who escort the Church put of Mystery Babylon, the “great city,” otherwise known as “Sodom and Egypt” at the Seventh Trumpet Rapture, just as the wrath of God falls. Lot’s wife is a picture of the foolish virgins who failed the trial and test that will come on the whole world, and lost their faith because they didn’t keep the Word as a Lamp unto their feet, lest they stumble and fall. Daniel 12 says many will stumble and be purified, but the foolish will continue to be wicked. The Battle of Jericho is also a picture of the Post Trib rapture. The two spies who escort Rahab just as the wrath of God falls after the blowing to the seventh trumpet on the seventh day, is an obvious picture of the Two Witnesses rising with the Church at the Seventh Trumpet, just as Babylon Falls.
The main problem stems from the wrong idea that the seven year Tribulation is the same as the wrath of God and the Day of the Lord. The Book of Romans tells us that the wrath of God is already being revealed against the ungodly. However, the Bowls of wrath are of a different kind, that completely destroy the ungodly. The Seal sealed scroll represents the prerequisites of judgement during the seven years. They are not God’s wrath, but rather a revealing of how Satan and his seed have destroyed the earth and persecuted the faithfull. The trumpet judgement run parallel to these and are a judgement against the wicked, those who have the mark. The saints are protected, just as Israel was protected during the ten plaques of Egypt. Having proven that the wicked are worthy of judgement because of their desteuction of the earth and God’s people, and their refusal to repend during the chastisement of the Trumpets, God then raptures His people and pours out the fulness of His wrath.
Jewish tradition says that during the Days of Awe (the “hour” between the Rapture and the Second Coming) there will be three types of people… 1) the righteous, who will have been raptured, 2) the wicked who will never repent, and 3) the undecided. These will have until the door to the Day of Atonement, when final judgement is poured out and the Door is closed. These are those who are judged as sheep and goats, and have children during the Millennium.
If you read Scripture in context, you will find that the “day that no man knows,” and the “thief” passages are a reference to the Second Coming, not a PreTrib Rapture. Jesus will come as a thief only for those who are not watching and this happens, according to Revelation, just before the Fall of Babylon. And of course we can’t know the day or the hour UNTIL we see the signs that Jesus gave. THEN “when you see all these things, lift up your heads for your redemption draws near.”
Many claim that the Tribualtion is ONLY for Israel, not understanding just what or who Israel is. Israel are only those who are the spriitual seed of Abraham, and all those who are grafted into her. God has ONE people, “one new man,” one body, made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. THAT is who the Tribulation is for. ALL Israel, not natural Israel, but the remnant of Israel.
A few problems with your theory. First let us take the thief in the night and no one can know the day or hour. The Bible is so crystal clear on the times of the tribulation. That has to be the most time related verses in the Bible. With that in mind one would have to be completely dumb to not know exactly when the 2nd coming is. It is clear as to when and how the tribulation starts therefore after that all you have to do is count than grab a chair and wait on the last day. The thief in the night must be when he comes in the air not the 2nd coming where his foot touches down. Jesus and some of his disciples both said that that day should NOT catch believers unaware, if you really are a child of light. Only catches the children of darkness unaware! As to the tribulation is mainly for the Jewish remnant. I agree and let’s not forget that Jesus said: Hosea 5: 15 at that time he will come back. The Bible is loaded with the exact times of the tribulation. One will not need to be a rocket scientist to understand when for the 2nd coming, but not so for his return in the air. Oh, it also says we will meet him in the air with the ones who died first that are in him.
Have you ever noticed that Jesus comes as a thief in the night after the Sixth Bowl is poured out? This is definitely not before the tribulation period.
I have only 2 things that I can add. What is the purpose of the tribulation? Who is it meant for. It is not the church, that is abundantly clear. Even Daniel makes that clear! It is for the restoration of the Hebrew people. The second issue I have for all the ones that do not believe in a pre-trib rapture is this. If it is untrue, than the first 3 chapters in the book of Revelation is a complete fabrication and lie. I do have grave doubts on that! It clearly states that the CHURCH is in Heaven. Jesus himself said who those people were. Someone show me anywhere after chapter 3, where the church is found in the book of Revelation. It is talking about the Hebrew, about Gods bride, not the bride of Christ! I will take Johns vision of what he seen in heaven over what all the nay sayers here want to say.
Hello Ben, Thank you for your comment. I will take issue though with what you said. First you pose the question, “What is the purpose of the tribulation?” A better question is “What does God’s word say about the tribulation.” 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 does however give a reason. It is in our continued testimony and faith in face of suffering that God is glorified, culminating in His glorious return. As for your second assertion that church is not mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation. This is a false conclusion for 2 reasons. First the Greek word for church is ecclesia meaning called out ones, and it is true that this word is not used after chapter 3. However there is another word that we often translate as saints, it is the word hagios. Hagios literally means holy ones and is used interchangeably between saints(christians) and angels. This word appears numerously throughout the book of Revelation and can easily be ascribed to Christians in the tribulation in Chapters 13 and 14 among others. Also the absence of something being mentioned does not prove it is not there. That is a logical fallacy known as an argument from silence see Legal Aspects. As for Israel many will return to the Lord at His coming. But know that the persecution that has begun and will increase touches Jews and Christians. It is in fact pre-tribulationist who are the true nay sayers, denying what what Christians have believed about Christ’s second coming for almost 2000 years.
Hi Scott, Sorry for the delay! Ok, the saints issue. Do you not see that it is talking of two different groups? The Church believers of now and they are standing before the Alter in Heaven during the tribulation. Than there are the,”other,” saints that are beheaded here on earth but they are UNDER the alter in Heaven asking the Lord how long to set things right. More saints will be added under the alter even unto the very last moment of his 2nd coming. So what of the church saints in heaven before the tribulation and clearly a different set of saints that end up under the Alter. They are even given a different job than the before mentioned saints,the Bride of Christ is clearly standing before Christ, not under the Alter. Their job and the job of the beheaded saints are vastly different and for good reason. look forward to your thoughts. You know Scott, this is refreshing to be able to have a civil discussion about differences we may have. I see on the web such hostility and,”hate,” when people disagree even with so called Christian brothers!
God Bless
Ben
Ben, throughout the New Testament, the Church is called “servants,” “elect,” “saints,” etc. Now all of a sudden these terms don’t refer to the Church EVEN though the Book of Revelation clearly states that the entire book is written “to the churches.” Prove to me, using scripture, that these terms DON’T refer to the Church. The Pre Trib lie is built on an unscriptural foundation that claims the Church and Israel are distinct. Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel, but only those of faith. There is ONE Olive tree, made up of believing Jews and grafted in believing Gentiles. Ephesians says the two have become “one new man,” in Christ. The Seventieth week is for Israel… ALL Israel, Jew and Gentile.
The seven churches are told that they need to overcome. Overcome what? The events that follow in Revelation.
Ben, where does it clearly state that the church is in heaven? Honestly, I missed that in my reading.
Another word to focus on in Luke 21:36 concerning escaping God’s wrath is the word ‘Strength’. Why would Jesus say that we should pray for ‘STRENGTH to escape all these things’ if we are to be raptured before ‘these things’ happen? How much strength is needed for that? I’d say not much. But strength is needed to endure, leading to an escape out of difficult times. I.e. tribulation. Not an avoidance of it.
Hello brother Scott, refering to your 29:29 comment being out of context i thought I would just refer to 2 Timothy 3:16..Do you believe in Matthew 24 that Jesus was only speaking to His disciples..or would that be taking out of context if I say it was meant for us?..If God wants you to do what you,re are doing than good for you…I don,t teach and I don,t judge..I don,t really know what God has planned for me and it actually is disappointing…God bless…
Dear Joe,
Please understand, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. It is my desire that you would grow and understand what the Lord’s will is for you. But I would not be doing God’s will if I left some of your assertions unanswered. 2 Tim 3:16 does indeed teach that all scripture is inspired by God, however Paul also told Timothy to “Be diligent to present yourself to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth,” 2 Tim 2:15. The key here is “accurately handling.” Since as you pointed out, Jesus was speaking to His disciples in Matthew 24, it gives clarity when you look at the parallel passage in Mark 13, “What I say to you I say to all, Be on the alert!” Mark 13:37. If you were accurately handling God’s word, you would have already known that. As a Christian, it is your job teach others and to judge (with righteous judgement) John 7:24. If you want to know what God’s will is for your life, it is really pretty simple (not easy). Make your heart completely His, and every day become more like Him. Keep reading His word.
I,ll sum it up in 6 words Scott…be ready..be saved..save others…The rest is just the rest ..I would,nt want to lead even just one person astray..no challenge btw. Lets just say you think it,s important. Let,s just say I think it has zero to do with salvation..just two questions..Do you think this is God,s will for you to do?..and if so..How did you know? God bless…
Hello Joe,
In answer to your question; yes, I believe what I am doing with this blog is God’s will for me. Rather that give you a list of scriptures explaining why I believe that, I would just say that if you continue to study God’s word with a with an open heart and mind, seeking His will, you will have your answer.
I believe that if our Lord wanted you to know he would have spelled it out more plainly..Deuteronomy 29:29 is pretty clear..Unless the Holy Spirit reveals to you it belongs to God.Why did,nt Jesus spell it out plainly and tell the disciples exactly how and when it was going to happen? Daniel 12:9..for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end…Are you a prophet? Are you looking to edify God or yourself? James 3:1 My brethren,let not many of you become teachers,knowing that we will receive a stricter judgement..Pre-mid-post?..I don,t know..You sound like you,re comfortable in the flesh with your theory..I don,t feel the love of Christ in your words..You will be known by your fruit..Ill conclude with Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,you will be saved…glory to God..Praise Jesus..amen
Dear Joe,
Thank you for your comment. Allow me to respond. Deuteronomy 29:29 has nothing to do with discerning the end times. The context of the passage has to do with people that are seeing God’s judgement against the land of Israel and not understanding why it has happened. God explains it is because they had forsaken Him for other gods. That is the “secret thing” being spoken of. Taking scripture out of context to try to prop up a false belief to fit what you already believe is dangerous to your spiritual health.
Actually Jesus did spell things out pretty plainly about what would happen in the end. What is unclear is the when. As for Daniel 12:9, that does not mean we cannot understand what God’s word teaches about the end-times. And to answer your question, no I’m not a prophet, but you don’t need to be one to rightly divide the Word of truth. Whether or not I’m seeking to edify myself or God I’ll leave for Him to judge, not you. I appreciate your warning not to let many of you become teachers, did you apply that to yourself before writing your comment? I don’t appreciate you equating my conclusions as coming from the flesh, again that is for God to judge.
Sorry you don’t feel the love in my writing. But that is not my problem. Love is not a feeling, it is an action. It is my love for God and those that have been misled by false teaching that compels me to keep this blog going. Thank you for challenging my conclusions without offering any reasoned refutation and choosing rather to judge my motives.
Joe,
It is God’s will for Scott to expose error and to speak the truth, rightly dividing the Word of God. If you knew your Bible then you would not even have to ask this question. Why is it God’s will for Scott to do this?? We are commanded to expose error and to reprove our brethren-Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
We are also commanded to give a defense for the faith (1 Peter 3:15). God’s Word is the final authority and we are to obey it. You noted above that you don’t teach and that you are disappointed, because you don’t know what God has planned for you.
First, the Lord has expressed His plan for you in His Word. His plan is to have a personal relationship with you. He wants you to surrender your will to Him, study His Word, allow the Holy Spirit to teach you, receive correction, repent, obey and draw close to God, through His Son, Jesus Christ.
His plan will unfold as you focus on doing what He has told you to do in His Word. If you will abide in Him, He will abide in you, and you will bare good fruit. Teaching/preaching/defending the Word of God is obedience to God, and it is also an outward manifestation of one’s abiding in Christ. Scott’s responses to you were kind, demonstrating the fruit of the spirit. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruit, which is spoken of in both Luke and Matthew.
People who believe in a pretrib rapture are TOTALLY deceived. It goes against everything in the Bible. Please, go read your Bible again and ask God to teach you by the Holy Spirit. God does not promise to keep you from tribulation, but to walk you through it. Acts 14:22 (KJV)22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus warned repeatedly about deception. We are ‘commanded to test/prove all things against the Word of God. If you wanted the truth, the Lord would give it to you. The Bible says to lean not on your own understanding and in all your ways acknowledge Him (Prov 3: 5-6).
If you do not humble yourself before God, and ask Him to show you the truth, then you will continue in your deception. If you believe in a pretrib rapture then you are currently in a delusion. Scott is teaching/preaching the truth in love out of obedience to Jesus, his Lord and Savior.
I hope and pray you ‘WAKE UP’. The Bible says that a ‘wise man loves correction, because he knows it is the ‘way of life.’ The simple/foolish hate/spurn correction and continue to destruction.
This is what God says in 2 Thessalonians 2-12(KJV)-PLEASE NOTE VERSES 10-12.
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Joe, I pray that you will come to a knowledge of the truth. God bless, Sherry
Thank you for reflecting on the wheat and the tares. I have often wondered why many good commentors on the rapture idea don’t refer to tis scripture whether they are pre or post trib. I have always thought that this is one of the clearest scriptures to put a time on the second coming. God bless you and I pray that all believers will have the faith to endure to the end.
It was very beneficial to read your article. I´m not ready to give up my pre-tribulation leanings, but my horizons have definitely been expanded on this issue. I will probably read everything here several more times. I´ve always thought it sad that this issue generates so much división and so little tolerance for opposing views. Belief systems are not necesarily from the pit just because we interpret scripture differently on non-salvation issues. We see through the glass darkly; we know in part and we prophesy in part.
Jim, Thank you so much for your comment. If I have provoked you to challenge your assumptions about the pre-trib rapture, then this blog is a success, and worth all the time invested in it.
On the issue of tolerance: We should tolerate people with whom we disagree, but that does not mean we should shut up about it. My experience has been that when you oppose the teaching of pre-tribulationism, it is the pre-tribulationists themselves that become intolerant. God bless you.
I just would like to thank you for this post. I “grew up” in a non-denominational church that is Dispensationalist and pre-tribulation rapture theory. I totally devoured the false teaching, for years. One person at a random meeting challenged me and my beliefs. I stayed in the non-denom a lil longer and when I left finally realizing it was a false church I revisited the challenge by a stranger to test the scriptures used by the non-denom I was in. I prayed. I prayed a lot. I re-read the scriptures that were used to support a pre-trib rapture theory and the Word said otherwise! The WORD, His Holy Spirit revealed that the scriptures being used to “prove” a pre-trib rapture revealed something entirely different. There would be a tribulation that the “saints” would go through, but to those who overcome Christ would be sufficient to get us through, and if not through…if we were to be killed, we would be dying a martyrs death, which either leads to glory. This revelation of the scriptures was sublime! However; knowledge of pre-trib being false has also been alienating. I can’t discuss it with anyone because I still attend a dispesnational church that preaches pre-trib. I am in a denomination now but not a member and I cannot in good conscious join the church because I don’t share their doctrinal beliefs on these two points. I’ve told 3 friends, 2 are now former friends because they concluded I am wrong and they cannot reconcile my Salvation and my faith in Christ without being like them–pre-tribbers and dispensationalists (so much for agreeing to disagree on the “non-essentials). All this to say that this is the first time I’ve read anyone explain in writing what I read when I read through the proof scriptures! I didn’t know where to go with my findings. I just kept it in my heart. I know there are people out there who don’t adhere to the pre-trib lie, but like all things in Christianity sometimes that doesn’t translate into full agreement on other doctrines. Anyway. thanks for posting this.
Andrea: Thank you for your reply. It is because I know there are people like you out there that I created this blog, and I’m glad it was an encouragement to you. It’s difficult to lose friends over a disagreement, but don’t let that discourage you from speaking up for the truth. Challenge your friends like you were challenged. If they are open to the truth they will thank you later. If you believe my arguments were convincing, tell your friends about the blog too. Maybe it will help them. God Bless.
Andrea, I know how you feel. I came to Christ late in life and was not bound by the doctrine of Pre Trib, and questioned it immediately and was beat down pretty good. I found an incredible work called “The Sign” by Robert Van Kapen, that uses scripture taken at “face value”,in the most literal sense, to refute the false teaching of Pre-Trib,that has deceived the church for the last 175 or so years. The book was very well researched and is absolutely sound according to scripture. I encourage anyone who studies end times to read it. It unfortunately is out of print but widely available thru used book sites i.e. ABE Books.Try to find the last edition. Mr Van Kampen also reveals the origins of this false teaching , which may surprise some people. Scott thank you for pressing on with your work. Also Andrea, please listen to Pastor Joe Schimmel at Blessed Hope Chapel and found at GoodFight.org. He teaches on this and is very convincing. As these “Signs” continue to develop, we need Bereans speaking the truth, least we be caught unaware. God Bless!
Lance, Thanks for the encouragement. As for Robert VanKapen’s book, although I have not read it, based on what I know about it, I would not recommend it. My understanding is that VanKapen is the originator of the “pre-wrath” rapture view which I do not believe to be correct. Also espoused and popularized by Marvin Rosenthal. In addition I have read in book reviews on Amazon.com that VanKapen believes that Hitler will come back from the dead among other highly speculative ideas that would stand out to me as a warning sign of serious error. I’m not saying don’t read it, just test all things according to God’s word.
I wholeheartedly endorse Joe Schimmel. He and I have been friends for over 25 years, and we are currently collaborating together on a soon to be released book intended to expose the fallacies of pre-tribulationism.
Glad you read Van Kampen’s the sign. Did you notice that Van Kampen identified 4 (four) comings of Christ. Or did you miss that bit?
As I mentioned in a previous comment, I do not endorse Van Kampen’s work.
You’re absolutely correct – there will be no pre-trib – John states: Revelation 1:7-9 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,
There are no references to: THE Great Tribulation anywhere – – great tribulation is not The Great Tribulation –
Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22;Revelation 7:14 –
(Affliction/distress) To ‘debate’ this is wasting a lot of time – the ‘church’ has been fed falsehood for so long that truth does not ‘ring’ a bell….There is no discernment….
It seems this article completely neglects two main points that prove the bride had been raptured prior to Christs second coming. The first being in Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The second being in Revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (armies being the bride substantiated) in verse 7.
How is it part of His church hasn’t already been taken out of the Trib. if they are seen coming back with Him during His second coming?
I also want to address at least one category that revolves around the restrainer. I don’t know what ALL preachers are teaching regarding these verses, but it doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit is NOT present. It simply means that the restraint (body of Christ) is now no longer there, that once held evil forces back. I never learned that the Holy Spirit was never present afterward. The Holy Spirit is omni-present.
You are correct that I did not address this point. The reason being was that I was refuting point by point an article by Dr Garland, and he did not raise that issue. I may address it later in a future post. God bless you.
Greg if I may, I believe the saints that are with Jesus on His return(second coming) are the ones who suffered persecution, torture, and death for their faith. Their the ones who cry out to the Father how long must we wait till you avenge our blood. He replies just a little while till others join you.(meaning the last day martyrs.)The actual quote escapes me but it can be found in Revelation.
Mr. Pruitt I’m new to your sight and found this article very insightful. I too believe we will be going through the Tribulation and those who have a firm reliance/faith in Jesus Christ and the commandments will be protect because of our faith,(Abraham,Lot,Noah to name a few had faith and escape what came.)It will be no different with us,truly faithful followers; With everything that’s happening around us it’s closer then people think. Prayer/confession,repentance, belief/faith,acceptance in His guidance/truth is what’s needed. Jesus IS coming! Amen. May the Lord guide you all to all truth and understanding. In Jesus’ name.
The answer to both problems is very simple. The Church is raptured after the Great Tribulation, but before God’s wrath is poured out. Read the Bible and it is perfectly clear that the Day of the Lord does not begin until the sun, moon and stars are darkened at the Sixth Seal.
“The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and terrible Day of the Lord comes” Joel 2.
As for the restrainer…”the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him…that day will not happen until the falling away, and the revealing of the man of sin…” The Church ceases to restrain evil, not because they are taken away, but because they have fallen away and ceased to become salt and light. Peter is a type of the Church, who falls away during the “hour of trial” in the Garden.
Seven men are in a boat on the Sea fishing for souls with no success. A man on the shore tells them to put their net on the right and they taken in a great harvest. John recognizes Jesus on the shore and tells Peter it is the Lord. Peter puts on his outer garment for he is naked (clothes himslef in righteousness after falling away) and jumps into the sea, while John stays in the boat and rows to shore. Jesus later tells Peter about the death he would endured, bringing glory to God. Peter asks about John and Jesus says “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Peter, the dead in Christ, John as one who remains (perileipomai: to survive). Smyrna and Philadelphia.
Seven men are chosen in the Book of Acts. Two are witnesses. Stephen is martyred as he witnesses to the religious leaders Philip is raptured as he witnesses to the eunuch. Stephen, the dead in Christ, Philip as one who remains.
Seven men as types of the seven churches in revelation. In a boat on the Sea of Galillee as a type of the tribulation. Peter as one who falls away and is restored. Stephen as one who remains faithful and is martyred. John and Philip as those who are raptured. The eunuch as a type of the remnant of Israel, a fig tree whom Jesus said would never bear fruit again (which means the 144,000 cannot be witnesses. The responsibility for fruitbearing was taken away from national Israel and given to the Church…Jesus’ own words.)
The Saints returning at the end of the tribulation period does not prove a pre tribulation rapture.
Brother Scott: How spiritually refreshing to see other (anti-Pre-Trib) disciple boldy speaking out against that erroneous doctrine. I spent over 25 years researching this matter before publishing my two books (please visit my web site), in an effort to ensure it would pass canonical muster. If I can be of any assistance, I remain your servant. Joe Ortiz