In August of 2015, at the Berean Call Bible Conference, Paul Wilkinson made some very serious and unsubstantiated claims against Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson in conjunction with the release of a groundbreaking video called “Left Behind or Led Astray – Examining The Origins of the Secret Pre-tribulation Rapture.” The following is a response to those accusations.
Good Fight Ministries Responds to Paul Wilkinson
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Thank you for all of that, your name is now under my list of those to be avoided because they twist scripture tro suit their own agenda, along with Jacob Prasch, whose behaviour certainly does not show any fruit of the Spirit such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I find it incredible that, despite the number of people disagreeing with you, you are sereiously deetermined to stick to your guns, no matter the fact they don’t work, now that is sad. I thank God that, through His Holy Spirit He is still teaching me things about His Son and I pray it will continue until I either die (which, considering I am in my 80th year is highly likely) or He raptures me home! I am saddened though to see that a teachable spirit and you do not get on.
I am astonished that you defend Prasch’s stand regarding the Metatron Scott. The Apostle Paul referred to “an unknown god” which he then proceeded to name. (Acts 17:23). Prasch teaches that the Metatron IS Jesus Christ.. “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12). It appears that you have not studied Prasch’s theology in any depth at all.
Dr Eitan Bar, ONE FOR ISRAEL’S Director of Evangelism and Apologetics has unequivocally refuted Prasch’s claims concerning their use of the Metatron as Jesus Christ in Jewish evangelism.
Eitan Bar: “On the issue of ‘the Metatron’ – I do not believe in the Metatron nor that he exists. I only see him as a fictional character, an imaginary mythical figure who I only refer to, as a rabbinic myth. The only purpose in referring to this concept is to show Orthodox Jews that the concept of ‘the son of God’ exists in their literature as well, and therefore the concept of Yeshua, the Son of God is not a “pagan non-Jewish” one, as most rabbis today will claim against Christianity.”
Treena, I think you have misunderstood Jacob’s position on this matter. His purpose in bringing up the Metatron is to demonstrate that the idea of God coming in the flesh or having a Son is not completely foreign to Jewish thought as many rabbis claim and that this fact can be used in Jewish evangelism. He is not saying Jesus is the Metatron. In fact, he has publically denounced that idea.
Further, it is not true that Eitan Bar refuted Jacob Prasch. I encourage anyone reading this to view Eitan’s comments in their entirety here: https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/mean-god-son-isnt-pagan-concept/. The thrust of Eitan’s article actually affirms Jacob’s position. Eitan’s article explains how it is demonstrable that “Son of God” is not a pagan concept and backs that up by using the Metatron from Jewish sources as proof. This is exactly what Jacob has done. The quote that you cited by Eitan is simply a disclaimer that Eitan included removing any ambiguity as to whether he believed the Metatron was a legitimate belief. To say that Eitan Bar was refuting Jacob Prasch is a gross mischaracterization of his quote. Jacob Prasch has made this same disclaimer repeatedly.
Maybe you should reach out to him personally for clarification. I’m sure he would affirm that the Metatron is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Metatron. If I thought otherwise, I would denounce him and his ministry. Jacob, if you’re reading this, please let me know if I have mischaracterized your position.
I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. God bless Dr. Paul Wilkinson, James Jacob Prasch, and Joe Schimmel. I have their videos in playlists on my YouTube @
Jesus Christ Is The Almighty Creator † King James Bible Colossians Chapter 1Christina
Everyone should Google “Famous Rapture Watchers” and find how the greatest NT scholars of all time interpreted pretrib “proof texts” like Rev. 3:10. But you might like to take some soothing tranquilizers first!
Anything that James (Jacob) Prasch is involved in I don’t want any part of. He lied about his ancestry. He is not Jewish. His theology is terrible. )Ask him about the Metatron.) His demeanor is reprehensible. I do not trust anything he says.
Dear Christopher,
I’m not inclined to agree with you. I’ve personally been very much put off by all this back and forth between Jacob and his detractors and would like nothing more than to see it end. Jacob Prasch, like all believers including myself, has flaws. In my opinion, he is a bit too pugnacious and his tendency to call people stupid is troubling. I consider both of these traits to be a poor witness that hinder his otherwise effective efforts to proclaim the gospel and refute false doctrine and false teachers (sorry Jacob).
Having paid close attention to all the criticisms that have been leveled against Jacob recently, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially considering where these criticisms are originating from. I do not consider Chris Rosebrough, David Nathan, Tim Wirth, the Menlaws, Frank Rogers (whoever he is), and especially Graham Baldwin of the non-Christian Catalyst Counselling-Therapy-Training-Legal to be on stronger ground morally or doctrinally than Jacob.
Further, the State of Israel considers him to be Jewish and they are extremely thorough in their vetting process especially for Jews that do not observe Rabbinical Judaism and therefore require proof of ancestry. People that claim to be Jews and believers in Jesus at the same time are subject to even greater scrutiny. The only reason this issue was even raised was in a pathetic attempt to catch Jacob in a lie, which is ironic considering how these critics play fast and loose with the truth themselves. As for his theology, it is thoroughly Biblical, particularly on the major points.
Jacob’s teaching on the Metatron is totally in line with what the Apostle Paul did in his sermon on Mars Hill. Paul used the false religion and philosophy of the Greeks to preach Christ. Jacob used the admittedly false religion of Mystical Judaism to preach Christ to those who are caught in the lies of the Kaballah and the Zohar. To condemn Jacob for this would be the equivalent of condemning the Apostle Paul for saying the Greek “unknown god” is the Creator and Father of Jesus.
There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Proverbs 6:16-19
Dear Scott,
To compare Prasch with the inspired apostle somewhat takes my breath away!
It is written; Paul “found an altar with this inscription, To THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you.” Acts 17:23. That is exactly what he did: Further to his FAITHFULLY preaching the Gospel Truth (as the narrative goes on to say), Acts 17:23-24 confirms that many who heard him “clave unto him and believed.” That is repented and came to believe the Truth in Christ.
To believe otherwise would be contrary to what he said in 1 Corinthians 1:23-24.
God bless.
Dear Colin,
I think you missed my point. I was not trying to compare Jacob Prasch to the Apostle Paul. What I said was that Jacob’s use of Metatron was similar to Paul’s use of “the unknown god.” But Paul takes it even further in Acts 17:28-29 when he quotes a Greek poet that claims humans God’s children. In that context, the Greek poet was claiming from a polytheistic point of view, people are children of the gods. Just as it would be inappropriate to accuse Paul of promoting Polytheism, it is inappropriate to accuse Jacob of promoting Jewish mysticism.
Dear Scott,
I don’t believe that I have “missed my point”, as you say, no, not one whit; Prasch has muddied the waters, this much is true. “The unknown God” was indeed the crucified One. The context clearly teaches (as I read it, at any rate) that the “men of Athens” worshipped a god who was unknown; in other words a god who is is not the true God; they countenanced any, and everything (polytheism as you so correctly say) through, their vain philosophising.
I most certainly do believe that Prasch is “promoting Jewish mysticism.” His theology is completely skewed; unorthodox, and counter to historic Reformed theology. Why hide behind the Metatron-what is this all about?
Prasch was involved with the (ill fated?) “Daniel Project”, some years back, and from memory (I stand corrected if I am wrong, but I believe my memory serves me rightly) , Prasch said words to this effect; “This (the Daniel project) is a production made for a secular audience, we must evangelise without using religious terminology”.
However can this be done? The apostle said “we preach Christ crucified” 1 Corinthians 1:23. Is there any other way of faithfully preaching the Gospel? I think not! And I sincerely believe you would agree? Paul was certainly NO “setter forth of strange gods” (demons in the margin).
God bless.
Dear Collin, I stand by my comments. While not comparing Jacob Prasch to the Apostle Paul, I still believe that Jacob’s use of non-Christian Jewish mystical tradition is no different than what Paul did in Athens with Greek Polytheism and philosophy. The fact that Jacob does not subscribe to Reform theology does not bother me one bit. I also reject John Calvin, Augustine, The Remonstrance of Dort, The Westminster Confession, and the TULIP acrostic.
There is of course “general tribulation” as we all know… but Matthew 24 speaks specifically about the end of the age…. “when will these things be…” (verse 3).Verses 5-14 refer to various “birth pains” and “tribulation”. Verse 15 is NOT unconnected… The very next word is THEREFORE – oún (a conjunction: therefore, now then, accordingly so – typically translated “therefore” which means, “By extension, here’s how the dots connect”.
VERSE 9: “Then they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. THEREFORE (οὖν) when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel…… verse 21: For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Jesus was referring to tribulation/great tribulation – they are not unconnected events.
No one can be saved without the conviction of the Holy Spirit and without grace! I genjuinely cannot make any sense out of JP’s teaching about the restrainer and I actually believe it to be presumptuous.
The PRIMARY MEANING of John 16 is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of the church. The disciples would “weep and lament” – they would be “sorrowful”, but their sorrow would turn to joy (verse 20). “…..you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you” (22) Jesus refers to his post-resurrection appearances and the permanent presence of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, as a result of his departure (cf. 14:17). The disciples DID NOT experience persecution during the time that they were weeping/lamenting/sorrowful. If THE PRIMARY MEANING does not speak of tribulation, why should any SECONDARY MEANING? Most translators have “anguish” (THELIPSIS v21)and not tribulation or persecution. If you really want to insist upon a seven year tribulation along with the pre-tribbers, then go right ahead – who am I to stop you?
I am getting a little tired of JP repeating that people who question him “do not understand”… He has singulaly failed to defend his “doctrine of the Holy Spirit”.IF JP he is wrong, then it is a very serious matter to misrepresent God! I do not say this lightly. The Restrainer is NOT named in the scriptures and any attempt at identifying him must be speculative rather than dogmatic.
I have decided to distance myself from Jacob Prasch. He has now left three very insulting comments on my blog, though he makes it very clear that he thinks it beneath him to communicate on the “blogosphere”. His scripture twisting on the tribulation is very concerning indeed!
God bless
Dear Treena & Jacob,
I’m saddened over the tone of the discourse between the two of you. You both are servants of the same Master with similar gifts and callings. Both of you have been called as watchmen to sound the alarm to the Church that is unprepared for what it is about to face. I hope that cooler heads will prevail and that you can discuss your differences with one another directly (not in a public forum like this) in a spirit of brotherly love. You are both in my prayers, please be reconciled to one another. Rom 12:16-18
Dear Scott I am doing my very best not to revile or respond aggressively in the face of such provocation from JP. At the end of the day I am a mere mortal trying not to respond in the flesh. This teaching about the restrainer is public and therefore I believe it is right to respond to it publicly, and of course biblically. I think it is a dangerous thing to say that there will be no grace and that the Holy Spirit will not be “in the world” during the 70th week. The implication is: How will any Gentiles be saved during the 70th week without the Holy Spirit and without grace? It has caused me some consternation otherwise I should not be writing about it. I have always always respected JP and of course Joe Schimmel. I stand with Good Fight Ministries 100% against the false pre-trib teachings. I am praying not to make this a personal issue between myself and JP. I do forgive Jacob of course and I shall do everything within my weakness to be gracious to him, though at the moment I am finding it to be quite a test. God bless you.
In fairness to Jacob, he clarified his position in saying that the restrainer simply “ceases to restrain,” rather than being removed altogether. Therefore I think you may have mischaracterized what he actually believes and teaches. But again I urge both of you to resolve this directly with each other along the lines of Matt 18. While the disagreement on the surface appears to be doctrinal, it also appears to be personal. So in a spirit of love and humility, please be reconciled toward one another.
With respect, Mr. O’Sullivan does not seem to understand my view of the restrainer. While I am no admirer of John Mac Arthur, Jn Mac Arthur’s exegesis of the Greek text of 2 Thessalonians is correct., It does not state the restrainer is taken (as most other pre trib people assert), but that He will cease to “restrain”..
Again, with respect, as to the 7 years being the Tribulation, Mr. O’ Sullivan understands not that of which he speaks. The Olivet discourse draws a distinction between the tribulation (thelipsis) and Great Tribulation (thelipsis macro).
The beginning of Birth pangs (corresponding to the four horseman of Revelation chapt. 6; that is the first four seals) are called by Jesus in Matthew 24: 9 “The Beginning of Birth Pangs” with the more intense ones to follow.
In John 16: 20-22 Jesus explains these ‘Birth Pangs” inclusively (both the beginning of birth pangs which are called by Jesus ‘tribulation’ , and the later intensification which is ‘macro thelipsis’ or Great “Tribulation” in verse 21 (Thelipsis) of Matthew 24
(the shift takes place in verse 9).
Thus it is Jesus, not Jacob Prasch, who calls the beginning as well as the following segment of the 7 years “tribulation’; the difference being the former is mere tribulation while the latter following it is Great Tribulation when we compare Matthew 24 with John 16.
It is all tribulation just as with maternal labour in four stages:
1st Beginning of Birth Pangs (also defined by Jesus as ‘tribulation’/ thelipsis in John 16:21.
2nd The Great Tribulation (followed by the rapture & resurrection that inaugurates The Day of The Lord)
3rd The Day of The Lord (where the term is no longer ‘thelipsis’ but rather ‘Orga’ meaning ‘wrath’)
4th The transition to the Millenial Kingdom
Mr. O ‘ Sullivan appears to have two problems. He seems ignorant of the fact that Jesus also describes the first half of the 7 years as ‘thilipsis’ (Jn. 16:21), and secondly in so doing he fails to
draw a distinction between ‘tribulation’ and ‘Great Tribulation’ as contained in the original Greek text later during the 7 years.
I do not object to honest diatribes aimed at me or my views, but I would appreciate it if Mr. O’ Sullivan did not misrepresent my views without first accurately understanding them. If he then wishes to
debate me (preferably from the original Greek text) that is fine. But he owes it to The Lord, to The Body of Christ, and to himself to first understand what he is talking about.
Mr. O’ Sullivan’s citation of defamatory remarks from a mentally ill woman and someone who chooses to be her messenger boy are surely beneath him. I would respectfully request he deals with the
doctrinal issues and leaves his personal attacks out of the equation. Comparing Matthew 24: 6-9 with John 16: 20-21, Jesus defines both the onset pf the 7 year period and its second segment as
‘Thelipsis’ (tribulation; first the beginning of birth pangs (Tribulation’) , then the ‘Great Tribulation’ (Thelipsis macro).
I have no problem with the obvious fact that Mr. O’ Sullivan does not appear to be aware of this. My problem is rather that he flatly states that I hold the tribulation as the full 7 years (which is flatly untrue)
without knowing what the Words of Jesus scriptures actually state, and then combines this unfortunate misrepresentation and display of textual ignorance with personal attack borrowed from a
fringe element conspiracy theorist website operated by a well known clinical psychotic.
This should not be.
Please sir, deal with the scriptural text and represent my views honestly and accurately. It is Jesus, not I, who calls the first stage of the 7 years thelipsis/ tribulation, and the second thelipsis macro/ Great Tribulation.
If you have a problem Mr. O’ Sullivan, please take it up with Him and not with me sir. Since that is what the original texts establishes that this is what Jesus actually said, I personally believe Him. You are of course
free to disagree with Him if you so choose , but that is between you and Him.
Sincerely in Christ,
JJ Prasch
.
The fact that Laurian promotes the KJV Only Ruckmanite agenda and balks at the original meaning of the original languages in rejection of Nehemiah 8:8 is prima face proof that Laurian is not to be taken seriously.
The fact that Mr Lessing resorts to silly religious rhetoric mis-applying scripture verses out of context speaks for itself. Contesting the fraudulence of those pretending a scholarly a scholarly credibility when they have none and is not engaging in academic prowess. But even the secular world (Dunning- Krueger effect) that the ignorant are too ignorant to know that they are ignorant. Proverbs tells us that the simple can appear wise if they have the common sense to not speak outside of their sphere of knowledge. The fact is that I have statements of “Deborah” calling those disagreeing with her “Morons”, and I can document that she lied in her posted misquotations and even assigning to me things I never said. I do forgive her because she is well known to be a mentally sick woman. I am simply puzzled however why Mr. Lessing, even in his obvious ignorance, devotees himself to a life of service as her lap dog instead of dedicating himself to a life of serving Jesus.
Notice, how Mr. Lessing, his she master , and Laurian all have erroneous agendas that they are unable to defend doctrinally. So they lie and/ or say ridiculous things. I have no problem with honest brethren who wish to debate issues on the basis of God’s Word, but agenda driven people too ignorant to know they are ignorant and too arrogant to admit it when they are proven wrong are a waste of time; especially when they need to compensate for their lack of substance by telling silly lies and pretending to know things which they clearly do not.
Mr. Lessing is Pre Trib. Let him represent or defend that view or let him fade into the irrelevant obscurity from which he came and cease playing his hideous games as the messenger boy for a troubled woman who needs help.
We should all welcome serious dialogue with serious Pre Trib Brethren. We should not however waste time with the dishonest, ignorant, and mentally ill.
What is your view of Jacob Prasch’s doctrine of the restrainer? Prasch is known to be a railer – read his rant against this very godly woman who has always supported him…. she pointed out that the scriptures do not name the restrainer. Prasch now says there is a 7 year general tribulation – that is a new one on me.
http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/the-rapture-holy-spirit-and-restrainer_25.html#comments
To be honest, I am not that familiar with Jacob’s Intra-seal view. I disagree with your characterization of his comments on Treena’s blog. I don’t think it was a rant at all. I think he was simply attempting to clarify and defend his position. I believe that Jacob is passionate about God’s word and upholding it’s truths, and the way in which he does so can be misconstrued as railing, but I have seen Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament speak using the the same kind of pejorative language that Jacob does and I wish more believers would speak out the same way. As for the issue of the who the restrainer is, I’ve heard several theories: one is the Holy Spirit, the other is Michael the Archangel, and the third is some human governmental institution. I personally do not categorically reject any of those theories primarily because that is what they are. The only position that seems to me to be untenable is a variant of the Holy Spirit theory espoused by pre-tribulationists that insist it is the Spirit’s presence within believers that is removed. There is a big difference between the Spirit being removed from believers, vs His simply restraining of the Antichrist’s kingdom. For a more in depth explanation see: nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted/ Regardless, I consider Jacob and Treena to both be fellow laborers who deserve our support and encouragement. In my mind the important thing to consider is; are the end-time warnings for Israel alone or for the Church also? I think Jacob and Treena would agree with me that God can and will deal with the Church and Israel at the same time, whether that be post-trib, pre-wrath, or intra-seal.
I just looked at the site you provided, o’sullivan, where the person you are defending was ranting on and on in so very many posts about my brother in the Lord, Jacob. I suppose you could call her a railer.
I can’t tell you how sad it makes me to see people so vindictive and unforgiving of those who we are commanded to love by God who created us.
If we love Him, we will obey Him. If we don’t want to do those things which He has commanded, it is time to get down on our faces before Him and cry out to Him until we do want to obey Him.
It seems that Mr. Tom Lessing may be confusing Dave Wilkerson who is now with The Lord (whom I knew, generally agreed with, personally liked, and most certainly never would have labeled “a liar”), and Paul Wilkinson whom I also know.
The ‘Discerning The World’ website he cites is a rather obscure conspiracy theorist lunatic fringe website operated by a mentally ill woman in South Africa called ‘Deborah’. It is characterized and defined by the usual brand of pseudo scholarly ignorance and charlatanism we see in most conspiracy theorist diatribes where religious crackpots misrepresent themselves as having an academic expertise in areas where they are clearly unlearned. Virtually all of ‘Deborah’s’ past colleagues known to me left her on nasty terms and testify to her mental instability that usually expresses itself in vitriolic angst. Her problem appeared to be that while I respect and value the KJV, I am not “KJV only”- a position I regard as linguistically unsupportable.
She also seems to disapprove of the original Jewishness and Hebraic content of the New Testament (although I am not certain if she is anti Semitic or if her disposition is a mere bi product of her being a psychiatric case).
As anyone who has read my book ‘Shadows of The Beast’ can read for themselves , this mentally ill woman lied in her claims that I labeled my Pre Trib brethren as ‘heretics’. On the country, in the book I broadly lauded most of them and never addressed them as heretics or stated their views, with which I respectfully disagree, to be heretical.
Contrary to myself, Paul Wilkinson unfortunately, does state that those not sharing his view on the timing of the rapture to be ‘”heretical’. This would of course have to include not simply myself or Joe Schimmel but also Charles Spurgeon, Dr. Walter Martin, AW Tozer, and other Evangelical luminaries still with us such as David Pawson – all of which were or are not Pre Trib.
The ‘Discerning the World’ website , which is again operated by a clinically diagnosed psychotic, literally prefaced a portion of my response to its demonstrably false assertions in quotes as if it were my own words (“If you disagree with me you are a moron etc…..”). I of course never said or wrote such a thing , and where she did quote me, it was redacted to her defamatory liking and misquoted out of context. It was also at that time copied by another website using the avatar pseudonym ‘John Chingford’. We have had no correspondence or e mail even referencing this idiotically ludicrous specimen of calumny since the time it was posted several years ago, until Mr. Lessing needed to go fishing for cyber gossip as ammunition or whatever he did.
In any event, this ridiculous and disproven caliber of slander from a discredited source that Mr. Lessing points to as justification for his opinion leads me to dismiss his opinion as abject. Being frank, it also persuades me to lend him no serious credence personally. May The Lord bless him anyway.
In Jesus,
Jacob Prasch
(Moriel)
My reference to Dave Wilkinson instead of Paul Wilkinson was a typo error, Mr. Prasch. I suppose you never make those kinds of mistakes, do you? This site does not provide one the opportunity to correct your typo errors. Nevertheless, let us continue, as you love to say.
You wrote:
“The ‘Discerning The World’ website he cites is a rather obscure conspiracy theorist lunatic fringe website operated by a mentally ill woman in South Africa called ‘Deborah’. It is characterized and defined by the usual brand of pseudo scholarly ignorance and charlatanism we see in most conspiracy theorist diatribes where religious crackpots misrepresent themselves as having an academic expertise in areas where they are clearly unlearned.”
Allow me to remind you what the Bible says of those who boast about their academic prowess.
“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.” (1 Co 1:26-29)
Allow me to remind you of another warning in God’s Word.
“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Pro 16:18)
I find it rather odd that you deny ever having called Deborah “a poisoned spirit,” “a cheap mouthed hooligan,” “a slandering witch, “a demonized liar,” and many, many more other slanderous names, whilst everyone can see from your response on this site how you continue your vitriolic attacks by calling her “mentally unstable, “a lunatic” etc. Do you call this humilty? Jesus Christ, the One in whom you say you are, never, never called people names. In fact, Jesus called udas “Friend.” (Matthew 26:50). He did not say to him “And “You fraud, you cheap mouthed hooligan, you slandering witch, you idiiot, you crackpot, you deluded buffoon, you diseased soul, you ignoramus, you stupid man, wherefore art thou come?”
And then you have the chutzpah to end your comment with “In Christ” or “In Jesus.” Rally??? So, you may call anyone, anywhere filthy names just a long as it is “in Jesus.” And that seems to sanctify your sins? I suggest that you repent, Mr. Prasch” and apologize to Deborah and Discerning the World.
Wow, I just shake my head at you Jacob.
All evidence is in the open regarding what WAS said and what was NOT said on DTW. I even have a snapshot of Shadows the Beast on DTW where Jacob Prasch says to the effect that Pre Tribbers are false teachers and false Christs and lead the elect astray. Go read it all for yourselves in Jacob’s own words.
When you test Jacob’s theology he comes out guns blazing and goes after the person and attacks them personally in the hopes to discredit them.
But it’s ok Jacob, I really do forgive you for every nasty thing and untruth you have said about me. I hold no grudge against you as Jesus Christ is my witness.
Pay attention, Mr. Prasch. Fancy that – a woman whom you call “a mentally ill woman in South Africa” is willing to forgive you all the nasty things you said about her. Now, that’s what I call Christ-likeness, something you won’t know the meaning of even if you tried your utmost.
What? Jacob Prasch is angry with Dave Wilkinson because he allegedly called him a liar. Let Jacob read this again:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. (Mat 7:3-5)
Please read here to see what I mean.
https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/11/30/jacob-prasch-the-railer/#more-11561
This is a crying shame
Your website is what is shameful
Joe,
I heard you on Stand Up For The Truth, and I heard you agree with Tim LaHay on Isaiah 26:20, that the people in this verse are Tribulation Saints, and that they will be preserved on the earth.
You missed the previous verse that speaks of the saints being resurrected. I would say that you have taken this out of context.
Isaiah 26:19-21 is a pre-Trib rapture passage; The “Chambers” God invites His people into are the “Mansions” Jesus spoke of in John 14:2.
Notice also that the order in this passage is 1 – resurrection of the dead saints(v19), 2 – Invitation for His people to hide themselves (v20), and 3 – The Great Tribulation (v21).
This is the same event that Paul wrote of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. So Isaiah has told us that the resurrection of the dead saints “His people” and the rapture of the living saints, will be before the Tribulation.
Dan,
This blog is not managed by Joe Schimmel. If you would like to comment to him directly, I recommend going to his site http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/category/blog/
The notion that the saints will go through the seven years tribulation unscathed does not only nullify Revelation 3:10 but also pooh poohs Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:11. These verses do not in the very least leave one with the impression that God is going to preserve the saints during the Tribulation. In fact, He is going to permit Antichrist to kill them in droves.
[Since Scott mentioned MacDonald, I thought the following, which was seen on the net, might be of interest to all.]
MARGARET MACDONALD’S MAIN POINT
By Dave MacPherson
John Darby, Paul Wilkinson, and Thomas Ice are among those who have flunked the Margaret Macdonald test by covering up and misinterpreting what she (as the pretrib rapture originator) actually stated in 1830!
My book “The Rapture Plot” discusses Margaret’s two-part main point (lines 58-63 in her 117-line account): seeing “one taken and the other left” before “THE WICKED” (Antichrist) is “revealed.”
Hal Lindsey’s “The Rapture” correctly says she taught “a partial Rapture” – that only PART of the church will be pretribbed up.
Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” also describes partial rapturists as “pretribulationists,” and their charts show the “church” BEFORE AND AFTER their rapture in the same way Margaret was a “church splitter.” (Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” and “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines.”)
Both John Cardale (in Edward Irving’s journal in Dec. 1830) and John Darby (in his 1853 book) described their visits to mid-1830 meetings Margaret conducted in her home. Darby’s “recollection” was such a mirror of the many details in Cardale’s published account 23 years earlier that I’m convinced that Darby was merely copying Cardale’s details, and Darby listed all of the details except one!
Although Darby mentioned Margaret’s “texts on overcoming” (the “tribulation” or second half of her main point), he deliberately omitted her emphasis on “the coming of the Lord” (rapture) as the church’s “deliverance” before the “judgments coming on the earth” which all visitors, except Darby, admitted was a pretrib event (the “rapture” or first half of her main point)!
Margaret’s visitors included writers for Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch.” Within weeks it reflected Margaret’s unique and original “church/church dichotomy” (“spiritual” church members raptured and “less spiritual” church members left behind) when it saw the “Philadelphia” church raptured BEFORE “the great tribulation” and the “Laodicea” church left on earth.
Well, if Darby could be a revisionist with Margaret’s words, so could Wilkerson and Ice today.
After Joe Schimmel’s Good Fight Ministries produced the “Left Behind or Led Astray?” video (the greatest video exposure ever of pretribism’s dishonesty-riddled history!), Britisher Paul Wilkinson savagely attacked it in an uber-unscholarly way in a video produced by the Berean Call Ministry titled “Left Behind or Led Astray? – Exposed.”
In order to please his think-alike idol, John Darby, Wilkinson deliberately stopped his quotation of Margaret at line 45 so that he could omit the first (pretrib) part of her main point in order to be able to falsely declare that she advocated “a post-tribulation Rapture”!
Thomas Ice has been even more nervy than Wilkinson, his British “twin.” When Ice quoted Margaret’s 117-line account in the Dallas Seminary journal he omitted ALL OF HER MAIN POINT but made up for it by quoting just BEFORE and AFTER it! (Ice’s “PhD” was “earned” at the unaccredited Tyndale Seminary in Texas which, according to World Net Daily, was heavily fined by the State of Texas for illegally issuing degrees – too many degrees for the Texas heat!
Finally, if Ice, Wilkinson and other pretrib escape artists love Jews and Israel as much as they say they do, why don’t they want to be on earth during “Jacob’s trouble” to aid and comfort Jews and others? (Some Google items related to this include “Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars NOT Pretrib,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
Later I noticed a typo in MacPherson’s article. Wilkinson is misspelled. Hope he isn’t upset. God bless all, and have a great Christmas.
Finally it seems that this pretrib issue is very important as it leads to other very serious mistakes…look what happened to John MacArthur, is Paul Wilkinson next? I have never imagined that this matter will raise such polemics.
In over 30 years of following The Lord, I have never ever heard believing Christians speak to or of one another so very harshly. We ought to love one another and be swift to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger. Some of the comments and personal insults aired here are downright disgusting and un-christlike. Before attempting to prove your position on the timing of the rapture (or anything else) right, make sure your heart is right because as The Lord said, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too have been a Christian for 30 years, and for about the first 3 years was solidly pre-tribulational in my beliefs before I became convinced otherwise by the scriptures. The prevalance of pre-tribulationism is of great concern to me because I believe that the Lord has a mission for His Church in the midst of the tribulation. I believe He wants to raise up people of the stature of Daniel, Joseph, Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego, and more; who will stand for God in the face terrible persecution no matter the cost and say to the world, “Our God is able to deliver us, but even if He does not, know that we will not bow to the false gods of this world.” Over and over in the New Testament there are warnings to Christians regarding that time, and pre-tribulationism transfers those warnings and promises to the Jews and says that they don’t apply to the Church. This is a dangerous and un-biblical teaching.
In the last three years, I have taken however imperfectly to refuting this false teaching. In the course of doing so I have upset a great many people as evidenced by their harsh words against me. I do not typically censor comments that are critical of me or the position I have taken. And maybe sometimes I have been less than charitable in my responses back. I have also had poeple agree with me doctrinally that have been very harsh against pre-tribbers. That is their position, not mine. If you read through the comments, it will become appearent that the most un-loving and unreasonable comments are coming from the pre-trib side. The attacks have been so personal that I thought it warranted mention which began with my open letter to T.A. MacMahon.
My motive in creating this blog is to get people to think about what they believe and why they believe it. I can’t help it if that is going to make people upset and downright angry. I will continue to attempt to take the high road in these discussions, and would appreciate your prayers to help me do that.
Greetings Scott. I was previously pre-trib but am now pre-wrath in my belief. However, I have ALWAYS maintained friendships with those who hold differing positions on the timing of the rapture as long as they believe He IS coming. Perhaps I’m dumb enough to think that Christians who are mature enough to study eschatology are also mature enough to love one another. I can’t believe some of the comments made. I appreciate your blog and your purposes in setting it up. Surely we can disagree without being rude. My friends and I debate the coming of The Lord over dinner. We don’t start until we’ve prayed for each other and read verses of scripture about loving each other. Even though our beliefs on timing differ, we agree to disagree.
It’s because of people like you and your friends that I put up with the abuse. Its important to get the truth out there, however in the course of doing so you make yourself a target and will inevitably offend people. I appreciate your comments.
I know what you mean mate. I believe we should use eschatology in our witness, not as a wedge of division among believing Christians. There’s enough genuine heresy to root out especially within charismania and if we descend into vilification of each other while the world goes to hell The Lord’s going to have something to say about it. I value examining the Scripture in Hebrew and Greek without becoming as legalistic as those insisting on circumcision and Sabbath keeping because there are treasures in The Word we do not glean from simply reading the KJV as it is. My observation is that some pre-trib believers have become more and more vocal in their objection to others of differing persuasions and their language more and more inflammatory. We mustn’t do this, unless we can prove from Scripture that this is right. God bless.
prewrathalite wrote:
“Greetings Scott. I was previously pre-trib but am now pre-wrath in my belief. However, I have ALWAYS maintained friendships with those who hold differing positions on the timing of the rapture as long as they believe He IS coming.”
Jesus also called his worst enemy “friend.” (Matthew 26:50).
If the timing of the Rapture is not important Paul would probably never have written his wonderful words of consolation and encouragement in 1 Thess 4:18
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
He would probably have written something like this:
“Listen up, you guys. Do not be too concerned about the letter false teachers have written in my name to tell you that you are already in die Tribulation. The timing of the Rapture is not that important. What is important is that Jesus IS coming.”
Would this have had comforted his brethren. I think not!
Hello Tom,
I find comfort in what Paul was actually writing about. That we will be reunited with the dead in Christ, and with Christ Himself when He returns. If I was in the tribulation I would find those words even more comforting considering that I may be witnessing my family members and brothers in Christ being slaughtered; which is exactly what is happening in Syria today, and what was happening in the early Church when Paul wrote those words. So we have hope and comfort in the midst of tribulation that the world does not have and cannot know apart from Christ. God wants us to have hearts after Him like Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego who said to Nebuchadnezzar, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” That is our mission.
Hi Scott,
You wrote:
“The prevalance of pre-tribulationism is of great concern to me because I believe that the Lord has a mission for His Church in the midst of the tribulation.”
If God has a mission for his church why would He promise her “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”?(Rev 3:10)
Please explain to me, if you will, to what hour of temptation” does God refer and why would He keep the church from the hour of temptation when He has a mission for her in the midst of the temptation?
Hello Tom,
I’m happy to answer your questions. First this verse does not imply a pre-tribulation rapture. It has two meanings; one is the immediate context of the Church of Philadelphia specifically at that time. The second meaning relates to the Church generally speaking through all ages and in the last days particularly.
Secondly it is a conditional promise predicated upon keeping the word His patientce. So if this was speaking of the rapture (which it doesn’t) it would imply a partial rapture where only select group would be raptured.
Since this has a dual fulfillment, it begs the question as to how the actual Church of Philadelphia escaped its own time of persecution which was most definitely severe. God did not rapture the Philadelphians from their tribulation, so it seems unlikely that this refers to the rapture.
Another thing to consider is the grammar of the passage and the definitions of the words being used. The phrase “keep thee from,” is based n the 2 Greek words tereo and ek. Tereo which is translated “keep” means to guard or watch over. Ek is a preposition translated as “from” and positionally implies being in the midst of something. Therefore they would have to be in the tribulation first. This means that Jesus is promising to watch over His people in the midst of tribulation rather than taking them away from it before it starts. This is consistent with the experience of the actual Philadelphians considering that the city itself was extremely loyal to Caesar having been exempted from taxes and after Tiberias rebuilt their city following an earthquake.
Again as far as the meaning “hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,” also a dual fulfillment. There was the general persecution of the first and second centuries, which was a type of the tribulation to come, which we are seeing now being fulfilled in much of the world. And that speaks to the mission of the Church today which is to be a witness. The temptation for us as Christians is that we would deny Him and fall away or backslide into living for ourselves first rather than to Christ. But through His Spirit we can overcome.
Thank you for your reply, Scott. You wrote:
“Another thing to consider is the grammar of the passage and the definitions of the words being used. The phrase “keep thee from,” is based n the 2 Greek words tereo and ek. Tereo which is translated “keep” means to guard or watch over. Ek is a preposition translated as “from” and positionally implies being in the midst of something. Therefore they would have to be in the tribulation first. This means that Jesus is promising to watch over His people in the midst of tribulation rather than taking them away from it before it starts.”
First of all, God never promised his saints (the Jews and gentiles who are going to be saved during the Tribulation) that He would keep them safe from the hour of temptation, in the same way He kept them in Goshen, Egypt. In fact, the Bible very distinctly says that God Himself is going to give Antichrist permission to slaughter them.
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev 13:7)
Revelation 6:9 substantiates this very clearly:
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.” (Rev 6:9-11)
Moreover Paul urges us to ” comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
I don’t think the notion that God is going to guard or watch over the saints whilst he allows Antichrist to slaughter them is much of a comfort, is it? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not a God of confusion. He will never promise to watch and guard over his saints and then give them over to Antichrist to slaughter them. Comfort?
I don’t think your rendition of “ek tereo” is correct. This is what Strongs has to say:
“ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): – after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.”
Notice te phrase “from among.” When Jesus explained to his disciples that He would be raised from among the dead, they did not understand Him. it would be stange to think they did not believe in the resurrection as such. On the contrary, they were familiar with the Old Testament which clearly affirms the resurrection. It was “from among” that baffled them. They believed that there was to be only one resurrection of believers and unbelievers – simultaneously. Jesus taught them that there would be a resurrection “from among” the dead.
God did not peserve, guard or watch over his Son in the realm of the dead in the sense that you have implied. He completely removed, took Him out of the realm of the dead when He raised Him from among the dead. Please read Colossians 1:18. There the very same word “ek” is used.
Amen, and out of my heart for the love of God and the love of His word, I have spoken, I never insulted JP but look at the vile insults from this man at me, what is his heart like. I am very sorry Jacob you are in hospital, I was too in August last year for THREE and a half WEEKS! I came home and had to be hoisted for NINE months from bed to chair to commode, I was wheelchair bound, could not walk and was housebound, sat in one chair for hours in one room!! I know suffering and don’t wish it on you, I will pray for you quick recovery. What does anger me is Joe Schimmel’s treatment of my friend Colin Le-Noury – a set up!! How dare you do that!! I hope and will pray your rediculous 4 hr video FLOPS!! You are a disgrace to the body of Christ and need to repent! See here folks listen to the start but mostly listen to the 1 hr point to the end. Thank you for my voice to be heard here – let the truth prevail. http://livestream.com/bereancallconference/israel2
Laurian you are dishonest and ill-informed. You claim you never insulted Jacob Prasch yet that is exactly what did in your initial comments directed at him. As for the Colin Le-Noury interview, it was not a setup. Paul Wilkinson characterized it as such but it was not. While it may be true that Colin later did not want his comments included in the video, it was because of the potential damage they could do the pre-trib position, not for in any way taking his comments out of context. I have been more than patient with you, but going forward, I am banning your comments because I do not believe they contribute anything positive to this discussion.
Instead of taking two tablets and calling the doctor in the morning, Abigail and Laurian can benefit more by visiting Google and entering “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and locating some figures on which to vent some well-deserved hostility.
Concerning the patently ignorant remarks of “Laurian,” I do not wish to accord such an obviously ignorant person any attention. As anyone watching the Wilkinson video can see for themselves, we are reacting to an unfounded attack on ourselves and have not attacked anyone. Hebrew Roots teaching has nothing to with this and my books plainly document that I draw a clear distinction between Israel and the Church; this sad person has misrepresented my published position and as anyone can read for themselves, has not told the truth.
It is The Word of God in Nehemiah 8:8 that plainly teaches that the priority is in the original meaning of the original text, not Jacob Prasch. For this pathetic individual to reject the plain teaching of God’s Word and retreat into shoveling “KJV only” ignorance imagining it to be spiritual or doctrinal and demeaning the actual meaning of the scriptures in the languages God chose to give it, is the plastic badge of an arrogant ignoramus. I make no judgment on this person’s personal faith and it is not my wish to revile him/her, but this is a seriously ignorant person whose foolish lack of cogent verbality I can find no euphemism. This is a very ignorant person.
“not my wish to revile him/her” REALLY! 12 or more insults in one post! You speak like a snake sir! FYI I am a female, or don’t you even look at the profile photo of who you speak? What hateful speech you have which just proves my judgement of you is right. As for Nehemiah 8:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
A good teacher just gives the sense of the written word in the book, he does not need anything other than God’s preserved, pure and perfect word. It is God that gives him and us understanding and leads us to all truth. The bible interprets the bible for those in Christ. What you do is stir up hatred!
Hello Laurian,
When Jacob responded to your post, he did so from his hospital bed where he is recovering from a severe leg infection. I edited his comments by making them gender neutral because I was not sure if you were male or female and did not want to assume. There is no photo or pic associated with your comments to make that clear. So you can blame me for that, he originally wrote them as to a female. The substance of the rest of Jacob’s comments however are his.
Having said that, I agree with him in that the KJV only position is an ill-informed one. In fairness you attacked him, calling him out by name before he responded in kind. You charactarized his criticism of his detractors as ‘tripe,’ and told him he should get off his high horse for upholding the original languages of the Bible above English.
I welcome debate on issues. Let’s try to keep the discussion focused on that.
Yes, I realised after posting about the photo, my apologies on that. I heard JP many times in the past and have met him but I know Paul Wilkinson and allthough Paul sadly also is not solely a KJB man, he has a great heart for the truth, loves Israel, calls out those who support so called Palestine in the church and I have never heard him be so spitting against the brethren as I have heard JP in the past, so this video stirred my spirit so. You should all read Dr Douglas Stauffer’s book, it will enlighten you. And as I say, if it ain’t a King James it ain’t a bible! You will have a butter knife and not the two edged sword as your armour. “The source of authority for the exact wording of the 1611 Authorized Version is not in the existing copies of the first printing. Instead, the source of authority for the exact wording of our English Bible is in the preserving power of Almighty God. Just as God did not leave us the original autographs to fight and squabble over, neither did He see fit to leave us the proof copy of the translation. Our authority is in the hand of God, not the imperfections of man. Praise the Lord for that!” Dr. Douglas D. Stauffer, PH.D., One Book Stands Alone, p.356
Laurian, this blog is about end-times, particularly with respect to the Church’s participation in the great tribultion that is to come. The KJV only issue which you continue to bring up is not relevant to the topic. Unless you wish to make the claim that the KJV teaches pre-tribulationism and are prepared to give evidence to that claim then it would be best if you took your KJV only argument somewhere else.
Laurian, Since you are a fan of Doug Stauffer, you may be interested to know that he will be debating my friend Joe Schimmel at the upcomming Pikes Peak Prophecy Conference on the timing of the rapture. http://prophecyinthenews.com/conference.html
This farce of a video needs to be removed. Your lack of reconciliatory heart exposes your TRUE selves. YOU are the ones who are slanderous, deceptive, defamatory and dishonest…especially aligning yourselves with that bipolar conspiracy-theory-loving crone from the UK, Treena Gisborn. What seriously shoddy scholarship. I’m embarrassed for you guys with your crocodile tears and good cop vs bad cop attempts to look good and undermine the integrity of those you disagree with, all under the guise of being magnanimous. If you were truly following Christ, instead of your childish “well, HE started it” mentality, you would be personally reaching out to those you disagree with in love and desire for true reconciliation instead of letting your followers flatter you.
Abigail, I allow comments such as your on my site to demonstrate how unreasonable, irrational, unloving and hypocritical people can be when they hear something they don’t like. Allow me to dissect your comments.
1. “This farce of a video needs to be removed.” First of all there is nothing farcical about this video. It represents thorough research on the subject of the history of pre-tribulationism that has been ongoing for over 30 years before the production of the video. If you are going to make the statement that it is farcical, it is incumbant upon you to substantiate that charge, otherwise you are merely name-calling. As for stating that the video needs to be removed, in this you are advocating censorship. Do you advocate censorship for everything you disagree with? It would be better to encourage people to examine the information and test it for themselves. You are free to critique what has been put forth (which you have not actually done in your comments), but to deny others the right to judge for themselves is no different than the opposition the Catholic clergy once had to the publication and dissemination of the Bible.
2. “Your lack of reconciliatory heart exposes your TRUE selves.” Again you fail to present any evidence to your claim. I can tell you we would like nothing more than to be reconciled with Paul Wilkinson, T.A. MacMahon and The Berean call. We did not attack them, we simply challenged the presuppostions of pre-tribulationism and brought information regarding its development as a doctrine into the light. The character attacks against Joe Schimmel and others came from The Berean Call Conference, anything beyond that has been a defense. So you are wrong about a lack of desire for reconciliation in fact my open letter calls for exactly that. Secondly you are not in a position to know anyone’s “true self,” unless it is by divine revelation, which I sincerely doubt you have been given.
3. “YOU are the ones who are slanderous, deceptive, defamatory and dishonest…especially aligning yourselves with that bipolar conspiracy-theory-loving crone from the UK, Treena Gisborn.” By not substantiating these claims, they have absolutely no weight. Instead you are making wild accusations and providing no evidence to support them. I’m not an apologist for Treena Gisborn. I have only recently been exposed to her writings and have had some brief correspondence with her. I have not been exposed to anything thus-far in her writings to conclude that she is conspiracy theorist or that she is bipolar. Equating her to a “crone” as you did in your comment in my opinion is exceedingly harsh and not something I would expect to hear from someone claiming to be a Christ-follower.
4. “What seriously shoddy scholarship.” Really? it is easy to make the claim, it is quite another to back up that claim. Do you have any scholarly references that refute any of the claims that were made in the Left Behind or Led Astray video? I doubt it. In fact I would be suprised if you viewed anything but the trailer and the commentary that followed. If you have viewed the 4-hour documentary video, then I welcome you to make your case.
5. “I’m embarrassed for you guys with your crocodile tears and good cop vs bad cop attempts to look good and undermine the integrity of those you disagree with, all under the guise of being magnanimous.” In the LBOLA video, the integrity of Manuel Lacunza, Edward Irving, Margaret MacDonald, John Darby and C.I. Scofield were all called into question and rightly so considering that they all played a part in the development and dissemination of pre-tribulationism. Whether or not those questions have any validity I will leave for the reader to make their own determination. As for the response video, that was two things, it was a biblical refutation of pretribulationism as a doctrine and it was a defense against personal attacks that were made against Joe Schimmel, Jacob Prasch and Joel Richardson. There was no guise of magnanimity as you call it.
6. “If you were truly following Christ, instead of your childish ‘well, HE started it’ mentality, you would be personally reaching out to those you disagree with in love and desire for true reconciliation instead of letting your followers flatter you.” You obviously do not have all the facts here. Did you watch The Berean Call Livestream? This was a very public forum in which Joe, Jacob and Joel were personally attacked for their work. What has happened since has been a public response to those attacks. I for my part did reach out personally to T.A. MacMahon in the form of my open letter. Had the original remarks not been public then the response would not have been either. Christ Himself can judge who is or is not following Him. Your statements are presumptuous and lack facts to back up your assertions. In my opinion, you owe Treena Gisborn, Joe Schimmel and myself an apology for your harsh, unimformed and unsubsantiated accusations.
Sincerely,
Scott Pruitt
If you have connections with Treena Gisborn, than my only apology is for not publicly exposing you sooner. Birds of a feather. I sincerely hope you’re not married, as that seducing jezebel will have you under her self-deluded spell in a heartbeat…oh, wait…perhaps too late…
Thank you for your kind and well reasoned response. {sarcasm detected}
[…] responded to Schimmel’s DVD, he and Prasch felt that it warranted a one hour and 45 minute response! Critics of pretribulationism are too often thin-skinned when challenged. One participant […]
Jacob Prasch, I get fed up with hearing your attack on brethren, I can’t be doing this “he said, she said” tripe, it does not edify the body of Christ. If you got out of your Hebrew Roots bus you might just see the dispensations of time in the bible and learn that Jacob’s trouble and God’s wrath are not for the church. Just like many in the church you can not seem to separate Israel from the Church,the Kingdom of God from the Kingdom of Heaven, Covenant from Testament and the everlasting gospel from the gospel of grace through faith. If you got off your high horse of Greek this and Hebrew that and trusted God in the King James Bible you may become a little more humble. We do not need Greek and Hebrew scholars of today – we HAVE the Holy Spirit of God and Godly men who teach from the only HOLY Bible in English for our generation, which has already been translated by scholars and linguists far greater than you and your college professors.
As for every eye will see Him – read – those who dwell on the Earth – NOT US as we will have been dwelling in Heaven for 7 years and will be coming back with Him.
you are reading into the Scripture words that were not there. We don’t go to heaven, we
go to the lower immediate heaven of the sky where Christ is, visible to all, to be out of the way of the wrath of God the tribulation is not the wrath of God but the
unrighteous wrath of the antichrist, because of which the wrath of God will fall on the
earth, you are like most totally confused on this point.
Laurian, I have met numerous Jehovah’s Witnesses that argue exactly the way you are now. Do you have anything constructive to offer besides ad-hominem statements and unsubstantiated claims? Nothing you have said so-far is in any way persuasive to your cause.
“If you got out of your Hebrew Roots bus you might just see the dispensations of time in the bible and learn that Jacob’s trouble and God’s wrath are not for the church.”
Dispensationalism is an invention of Darby and promulgated by Scofield.
God’s wrath is NOT the tribulation, the persecution by the antichrist. God’s wrath comes on the earth BECAUSE of the Great Tribulation, we are caught up to meet Jesus when He comes back to destroy the antichrist and the antichrist’s followers, and we shall stay with Jesus – where? in the lower heaven the sky, until the wrath is over, then we travel
with Jesus down to earth where He will rule forver.
” Just like many in the church you can not seem to separate Israel from the Church,the Kingdom of God from the Kingdom of Heaven, Covenant from Testament and the everlasting gospel from the gospel of grace through faith.”
Actually that IS a dispensational teaching.
” If you got off your high horse of Greek this and Hebrew that and trusted God in the King James Bible you may become a little more humble. We do not need Greek and Hebrew scholars of today – we HAVE the Holy Spirit of God and Godly men who teach from the only HOLY Bible in English for our generation, which has already been translated by scholars and linguists far greater than you and your college professors.”
you need Greek and Hebrew to check accuracy of translation which the translators of the King James VERSION of the Holy Bible said was imperfect, and would probably be superseded
by better translations later. you need Greek and Hebrew and CHECK CONTEXT to be sure that
it is The Holy Spirit and not your own self deception or the devil directing your
understanding of the Bible.
Thank you, Christine! You are exactly right. The Lord will avenge us!
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And then….. WRATH !!!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
At point 49:00, they are accusing Paul Wilkenson of saying ‘don’t be a Berean.’ Paul never says that, and never would. Being a Berean is checking things out with SCRIPTURE, not with some video. It’s not a good idea to elevate a video to have the same authority as scripture.
Hello Sharon,
On this point you are only partly correct. It is true that Paul Wilkinson did not say, “Don’t be a Berean.” However by telling people not to watch the video for themselves, it makes it impossible for them to be Bereans because they would otherwise be unaware of the major points that are made in the video. The parallel between how Paul Wilkinson recommends not viewing evidence to the contrary of the pre-trib position is frighteningly similar to the way cults tell their followers not to read or view anything critical of their beliefs.
Also no one is elevating the Left Behind or Led Astray video to the same level as scripture. The video is a documentary that examines the history of the development of the pre-trib rapture, and presents a Biblical and historical basis for post-tribulationism. As such it stands or falls based on whether or not what is presented is factual. As a Berean, one should be able to veiw the information and judge for themselves. Paul Wilkinson is doing the opposite. He is saying that the video as a fabrication, full of lies and produced by men of questionable character so don’t check it for yourself. This is exactly what people in the cults do.
My faith is not threatened by the teachings of those I disagree with, and neither should yours. I challenge you to watch the video for yourself and judge for yourself. In fact I’ll put my money where my mouth is. I will be happy to send you a free copy of the video, but don’t let Paul Wilkinson disuade you from using your own judgement.
When I was converted to Christ in 1985, I was going to a Church that taught the unbiblical word/faith prosperity doctrine, and based on what I was being taught in Church, I beleived it to be a Biblical teaching. At the time there was a book that had been recently published called “The Seduction of Christianity,” by Dave Hunt & T.A. MacMahon. My fellow Christians were aware of the book although none of them had read it, but they all said with one voice, “Don’t read it, its full of lies, its being used by the enemy, Dave Hunt is a liar, Dave Hunt is evil, Dave Hunt is divisive, unloving etc.” Sound familiar? Well I did not take their advice. Instead I read the book for myself and changed my mind about the things I had been deceived by. Needless to say, my fellow Christians who said, “Don’t read that book,” no longer considered me one of their own and I ended up leaving that Church as a result, but I have no regrets.
Would you test the video if I gave it to you?
To date, Sharon has not taken me up on my offer of a free video.
I find it so sad that church leaders are back biting over something like the timing of the Rapture. Real believers have enough to contend with in every day life without watching leaders bicker over something like this.
I don’t consider it important at all, as long as we do end up with our Lord….eventually.
Colette, I can understand and sympathize with you feelings. However when it comes to determining how important the second coming is we can’t allow feelings to dictate how we respond.
Two points: First it is not a matter of back biting, it is a matter of contending for truth. Having said that, Paul Wilkinson and the Berean Call are the ones that have taken this disagreement among bretheren and made it personal by attacking the character of the producers of the Left Behind or Led Astray video. Now instead of just defending a doctinal position, Joe Schimmel and the others are having to defend their reputations and character. And you’re right, that is sad.
Second, while you may not consider the events leading up to Christ’s second coming as being important or relevant, you see Jesus and the Apostle Paul saying just the opposite in the New Testament. Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day because they did not recognize or understand the times they were living in from a Biblical perspective. With respect to His second coming, Jesus said that we should not be deceived about it and Paul said the same thing. So according to the Bible it is critically important. Therefore it is also important that there be open dialog among Christians when discussing end times, and not character assassination.
Brother Scott? Can you provide the scripture where Jesus said (with respect to His second coming) that we should not be deceived about it, and also the scripture where Paul said the same thing?
I know Christ told us in Acts 1:6-8 that ‘it is not for you to know the the times and epochs:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”…
Hi Joe, Happy to answer your question. In the Matthew 24 olivet discourse, particularly in vs 3 the disciples ask about the sign of His coming, and before He answers them, He warns them to not be deceived in vs 4. This warning is also recorded in Luke 21. Paul says the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. God bless.
immanency is relevant to we will face Christ at death and make accounting whether
it is Second Coming time or not, but primarily is only relevant once the Great
Tribulation has been going for nearly 3 1/2 years. It is the generation in which
ALL the things Christ lists happen at once that is going to see Him come back.
Now you are actually making assumptions “Second, while you may not consider the events leading up to Christ’s second coming as being important or relevant, you see Jesus and the Apostle Paul saying just the opposite in the New Testament.” WHO SAID I didn’t??? The problem with you people is, you don’t listen carefully to what the other people are saying or (like you have just done with me) you assume you know where they are coming from. You don’t actually listen to each other and this is why things blow out of all proportion. It is not a doctrine that is unto salvation. It’s not important and yet here you all are squabbling over timing of the rapture like a bunch of school kids. I get fed up with you leaders, I give people the gospel so that they won’t end up in hell, point them to listen to leaders who say they have sound doctrine, and those new believers sit there watching you lot call each other names. I’ll be glad when the Lord does come back because He can sort it !!
Also you say “we can’t allow feelings to dictate how we respond.” But from what I have seen, all of you have allowed feelings to dictate how you have responded. I think you’d like to think that the people in the video had their feelings detached from this, but as I watch it I can clearly see that they haven’t. Now I don’t know Paul Wilkinson but the right thing for him to do would have been to confront the people he had an issue with face to face, it removes any misunderstandings if there are any, then depart from each other if you must, but there are more serious issues bombarding the Church right now and this isn’t one of them!
Colette, you said in your own comment that, “I don’t consider it important at all, as long as we do end up with our Lord….eventually” So I don’t think I made a false assumption based on what you said. So if that is not what you really meant, then maybe you could have been a little more clear yourself. Also I take exception to your characterization of contending for the truth of God’s word as squabbling. We would like nothing more than to discuss our differences openly and without rancor, however those who disagree with us have taken the low road and resorted to name-calling. BTW we are giving out the gospel too.
Hardly contending for truth debating the the timing of the rapture, however the Lord comes in with his discipline, he knows all about it so carry on if you think is such an important life saving topic!
kind regards
The following is a comment from Corrie Ten Boom in 1974. I didn’t even know God then much less the fact that people were actually being killed for putting their trust in Him. Now that I am a Christian, I am confused as to why westerners think that others can die for their faith, but surely, God would never let that happen to us!! Remember, Jesus told us to count the cost first. This was her comment:
“This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there.
Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.”
Corrie Ten Boom 1974
no one is exalting the video to the level of Scripture, being a Berean in this case would
REQUIRE seeing the video in order to be able to check it with Scripture.
There is a huge difference between the tribulation or satanic persecution that the saints have endured down through the centuries and the GREAT TRIBULATION that is the Lord pouring out His wrath in judgement upon the whole world. No generation of believers throughout history have ever endured or suffered God’s wrath upon the whole world….. Tell me why the last generation of believers would be singled out to suffer God’s wrath, especially when scripture tells us “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.”
1 Thess. 5:9-10
Hello Sharon. It is a common misconception that escaping the wrath of God equates to being raptured before the great tribulation, but the scripture does not say that. I deal with this in more detail here: http://nopretrib.com/spared-from-gods-wrath/
Hi Sharon, I think your point above is the most basic or plain argument for a pre-Trib Rapture; God has always saved the righteous from wrath. Not from suffering, but certainly from wrath. God’s wrath against sin was appeased at the Cross and the righteous is saved from it. And, of course, the Tribulation period ends off the Church period, i.e. it is a time of judgement against the ungodly, (probably) after the removal of the corporate work of the Holy Spirit in conjuction with the Great Commission.
Blessings.
Hello Deon,
Not being appointed to wrath does not equate to a pre-tribulation rapture. There are plenty of examples where God poured out His judgement and still preserved His people in the midst of it. The exodus and passover being to most obvious and direct parallel. As I mentioned to Sharon, I deal with the escaping wrath argument in more detail here: http://nopretrib.com/spared-from-gods-wrath/
THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS NOT THE WRATH OF GOD. only satan would consider God’s wrath to be tribulation. The wrath of God comes on earth BECAUSE of the Great Tribulation and the antichrist.
read Scripture without the help of study aids.
Brother Schimmel:
I just started to view this video and suddenly realized that you folks have fallen victim to a tactic that is used by Zionists’ apologists.
I’m familiar with Paul Wilkinson and his clever tactics. He uses the tactic that most Zionists use to place believers on the defensive, using the hackneyed phrase “Anti-Semitic!” And most often it works. You best bet would have been to ignore his criticism. He has used similar tactics with other disciples, including Rev. Stephen Sizer,
the incumbent of the Anglican parish of Christ Church, Virginia Water, in Surrey, England. In addition to his parish ministry, he is an author, theologian and evangelist.
Paul is the Associate Minister at Hazel Grove Full Gospel Church in Stockport, England. He was converted to Christ in February 1990 whilst studying Mathematics and Statistics at the University of York. He has a BSc in Mathematics and Statistics, a BA and MA in Theology, and a PhD in Religions and Theology. He has also studied at the International School of Holocaust Studies at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. In 2007 his PhD thesis was published by Paternoster Press entitled, For Zion’s Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby.
Paul Wilkinson (in my opinion) is a Zionist troll who main goal is to counter any comments that may be detrimental the the Jewish Community. Some of his work includes:
The Church at Christ’s Checkpoint – Christian Palestinianism
Christian Palestinianism and the Anti-Israel Crusade, both Written by Paul Wilkinson.
Paul is a member of the Council of Prophetic Witness Movement International in the UK, and a member of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Lynchburg, Virginia, Tim LaHaye’s outfit, managed by Dr. Tommy Ice [http://www.pre-trib.org/about}
The Pre-Truilatiob Rapture to Heaven camp is running out of gas and they will us any tactics to avoid total elimination.
Hang in there! God has your back!
Joe Ortiz, author
The End Times Passover
Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation.
Hello Joe,
Since you addressed your comments to Joe Schimmel, I thought I should let you know that although Joe Schimmel and I are good friends and brothers in the Lord, he does not maintain this blog.
Also in your comments you made several references to Christian Zionism/Palestinianism, and Anti Semitism. Joe Schimmel and I both share the same view in this regard. The re-establishment of the nation of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy that will culminate with the return of Christ. We do not believe as some do that it is not necessary to evangelize the Jews. In fact the Apostle Paul in the first 2 chapters of Romans reiterates this point. So we do not see a ceassation of the promises of God to Israel nor do we believe that all the promises of God to Israel have been transferred to the Church. God bless.