Most of us think of idolatry as worshiping images or statues of false gods. We also think of idols as things that we desire more than God. Both are true, but that’s not the only definition. An idol is also a man-made god, or a god as we think God should be. Idolatry is the most mentioned sin to be found in the Bible but is often the thing that is least talked about.
So how does this apply to pre-tribulationism? Its really quite simple. There are Christians that have made a caricature out of God. They say that they cannot accept the idea of Christians going through the tribulation because that clashes with their belief that God is loving, and that belief trumps whatever else God’s word actually says. But we must not try to make God conform to our own imagination, we need to see what His word instructs us. God’s word teaches that suffering for Christ is an honor, a privilege, and something that we should not shrink back from.
Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:36-39
Yet in the pre-tribulationists’ mind, Christians going through the tribulation contradicts God’s love. This kind of idolatry is not new. In fact the Apostle Paul warned us about it in the context of the end of the age. He said we need to learn from the examples in the Old Testament.
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12
So what parallel do we see in the Old Testament that we should be careful not to repeat? It is the same one that Paul just warned us about. It happened in Exodus 32. In the beginning of the chapter it says, “Now when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people assembled about Aaron and said to him, ‘Come, make us a god who will go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’” This is exactly what is happening now with pre-tribulationism. Jesus has been in heaven for 2000 years and not being content to keep waiting for His return at the end of the tribulation. Like Aaron the pre-tribulation teachers have created a new god that would not allow Christians to suffer for His glory, and to ignore the warnings that are specifically given to believers at the end of the age.
There are so many warnings in the New Testament about guarding our hearts during the tribulation, but pre-tribulationism says, “don’t worry, those warnings are just for the Jews.” We ignore these warnings at our peril and risk the same kind of judgments that befell the Israelites. We need to be students of His word and not be deceived by false teachings that set us up to fall away.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:21
Excellent article. I actually have an article on my blog entitled Hold Fast, that I recently posted, discussing this very issue. This idolatrous lie will prove to be one of, if not the primary cause of the falling away Paul warned us about.
God’s word is very clear on his coming and events surrounding it, so how is it that so many believe this pre-trib doctrine. It is not taught by the Spirit of God, but by men or demons. It is taught, It is part of the culture, many just grew up in the doctrine simple because everyone else believe it. They have never heard the post trib position. Many have rejected what Gods word plainly says about his coming to believe this false doctrine. Ask the Lord to equip you to deal with this false doctrine. “Lord bring to me those who will hear your word and equip me to minister accordingly, write you word upon my heart, put in my mind and upon my lip. Go before me as Jonathan striking down your enemies and let me be as your armor bearer following your lead mopping up behind you. Prepare me to receive you harvest as you bring it in. Jesus, you are the teacher, the pastor, the evangelist, go before me and prepare me to receive those you bring to me so that the glory is yours.” In the name of Jesus let this strong hold of deception come down; lose your angles to do battle and bring it down and drive out the source of it. Jesus exalted! I let Jesus do the hard work, mere human efforts will have little to no effect, but the power of my God and an abiding relationship in him works very well. It’s a team effort. I just don’t have time to waste on those who will not receive Gods truth. I only speak when God makes a way. The pre-trib lie hinders God in preparing his people for what is coming. As a lie anyone who holds to it has opened themselves up to demons, unknowingly they are following the father of lies. Not a good place to be. I hurt for the pastor who support this lie for they will see the suffering of their flock as events of the Lords coming unfold and will held accountable for the lost souls under their care. “Lord, Why do you allow this lie to exalt itself above your truth, stand up for you truth, pour out your Spirit upon all flesh. Speak out by your Holy Spirit against this lie, do not remain silent. Have mercy on us and deliver us, have mercy Lord.”
This article and many comments above are a m is – characterization of pre tribbers… perpetrating the LIE that we somehow believe we wont have any trials or suffering. .. hogwash. What we believe BASED ON SCRIPTURE, is that we are saved and washed in the blood of the lamb and therefore not here to be subjected to GODS WRATH. This is a very divisive article …really …. a picture of a child being sacrified to molech in reference to pretrib brethren ?! You should be ashamed of yourself.
Renee, the tribulation is not 7 years of God’s wrath. It is Satan’s final attempt at worldly kingdom and man’s willful worship of him which leads to God’s wrath at the end. Just as noah prepared the ark while the world mocked and once the ark was closed there were no more salvation’s. The pre-trib postulates that those left behind and Israel are saved in the tribulation through the work of martyrdom. Romans 3:30 the circumcision and uncircumcission are saved through faith not works. The church will be here until the rapture and then the judgment will come like the flood. Don’t boast against the original branches. We are grafted in and participate in the sufferings of all Israel. The biggest problem with the pre-trib is those not studying their bibles will think all is going along as it always has because we haven’t been ruptured yet. The Antichrist is coming with all lying signs and wonders and will deceive even the elect if not prepared. The dead in Christ rise first. Aren’t the beheaded martyrs dead in Christ?
The great tribulation is the wrath of the lamb and is not poured out on the saints. Those left behind – both unsaved Jew and gentile if saved are done so only thru faith in Christ. ..so im not sure what u are talking about.
Renee you do not understand what the wrath of God is. The great tribulation is not the wrath of God. God’s wrath is poured out at the end of the tribulation not for an entire 7 years. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God’s wrath lasts for 7 years. If you have a verse to the contrary please share it.
No where in the Bible does it state that the tribulation is 7 years! The last 7 years is 3-1/3 years tribulation, (Then the Rapture) and 3-1/2 years of God’s wrath!
Renee, how are they saved by faith if the world sees all these left behind movies and books and then the church disappears? God will have shown himself and after that point people will be believing by his overt work and not faith. Where do you get that the tribulation is 7 years of God’s wrath. That isn’t scriptural. Thessalonians says the dead in Christ rise first and that day does not precede the revealing of Antichrist. The key is the dead in Christ rise first. 7f there is a pre trib rapture I ask you again, aren’t those who are beheaded for not taking the mark dead in Christ? Your hypothesis gives us three resurrections. The bible says two resurrections. The just and the unjust. Not the just, the just and the unjust.
Renee,
Tribulation…”thlipsis” means “tribulation.”
Wrath…”orge” means “wrath.”
Tribulation does not equal wrath. They are totally different words. The great TRIBULATION is called tribulation because it is tribulation. If it was wrath, it would be called the great WRATH.
And to be completely honest, NOWHERE in Scripture is there even a mention of seven years of tribulation. Not even in Daniel 9.
Matthew 24
THEN there will be great tribulation.
THEN AFTER the tribulation, the sign of the Son of Man appears.
THEN Jesus gathers His elect as He pours out His wrath as in the days of Noah, and unbelievers will not understand.
Is God that weak, that it will take seven years to consume His enemies? Even during the time the Two Witness are killed, they are celebrating and sending gifts to one another. OBVIOUSLY, they are not suffering God’s wrath. And when the Two Witnesses are resurrected, a great fear falls on them. If they were suffering God’s wrath prior to this, they would already be in great fear. The great tribulation happens during the Fifth Seal. God’s wrath is poured out during the Sixth Seal, when all people, great and small, triy to hide from the WRATH of God and of the Lamb. Were they hiding during the first five seals? No, they were persecuting and killing God’s people.
hey guys. I’m still on the fence on this one. Some things are bugging me. I read last night in rev that Jesus comes back with his wife. (I can’t quote scrip) I also studied the five feasts and how half are fufilled. The next one is the feast of trumpets. Then, I’m not believing pre trib because of the trumpets. But then I read about the TRUMP and how it’s the trumpet of God not the Angels trumpets on the last day. Also the Passover story. I’m so confused. Can anyone help with this?
Hi Angela, Rather than trying to make a comparison between the Jewish feasts including the feast of trumpets and trying to relate it to what the Bible teaches about the end times, I’m going to refer you to a long tweet where I responded to a similar question. Hopefully it will provide some perspective for you as you continue on your journey to know God and His truth. https://twitter.com/NoPreTrib/status/526350964551204865
Scott. Would you agree that the Great Tribulation (GT) is cut short and therefore we can’t say how long it is? We know that it’s followed by the signs in the sun, moon and stars, then the gathering together of both the sleeping saints (I don’t believe in soul sleep) and living believers. If the GT starts mid way through the 70th week then the previous 3 1/2 years must therefore be the beginning of sorrows. Do you see the two witnesses in the first or second half of the 70th week? If they are in the first half then they have freedom to prophesy until the Antichrist is revealed as sits in the temple, could the restrained then allow them to be killed by Antichrist? Another question is a more tricky one, “What could be the time period between the Harpazo of believers and them returning with Yeshua to earth? Do we rise up to greet Him as He is descending and then straight away follow him to earth as He pours out His Wrath on the unrepentant world? (or) is there a short period of time where we go to the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven? If we go to the marriage supper we’ll be in eternity and therefore out of time as we know it, the marriage supper could last a few seconds in our earthly time! Just a few thoughts brother.
Hello Jim. I choose not to speculate too much when it comes to establishing a timeline of events at the end of the age, so I don’t have an answer for you regarding everything that happens before and after the mid-point of the tribulation. I do believe that as we see these events unfold, they will become more clear. I do not, however, see a time-gap between the rapture and the second coming. I do believe we will meet Him in the air as the scripture plainly states and will be forever with Him, accompanying Him as He pours out His wrath and establishes His rule as King over all the Earth.
The tribulation is strictly for the jews. This is their last chance to believe in Jesus Christ. The 144,000 saved jews will go out into the world and witness like on steroids. 2 OUT OF 3 JEWS WILL GET KILLED IN COMPARISON TO 1 OUT OF 3 IN WORLD WAR 2. This is not for the church of Jesus Christ. We have been cleansed and regenerated by the blood of Jesus. we dont need any wrath from God. We have been saved by grace and grace keeps us saved. Unmerrited favor. We WILL COME BACK WITH JESUS TO RULE THE NEW EARTH. THERE WILL STILL BE TIME AND CHANCE FOR SALVATION FOR NON JEWISH ALSO, BUT THE TRIB IS FOCUSED FOR THE LAST AND FINAL ATTEMPT FOR JEWISH REDEMPTION TO TURN TO JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH.
Mark,
It is because of responses like yours that I consider pre-tribulationism to be anti semitic. You are perfectly ok seeing the Jews suffer a holocaust twice as bad as the first one while you look down on them from your holier than thou perch. You’re in for a rude awakening.
Mark, Romans 3:30 seeing it is one God who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through faith. Jews are well acquainted with the rapture doctrine as well as most unbelievers. If God shows his hand through a pre trib rapture than all who believe after that are not saved by faith but by works of martyrdom. The pretrib doctrine says the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture but 1 corinthians 12:3 says wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Holy Ghost calleth Jesus accursed and no man can say Jesus is Lord be by the Holy Ghost. So you are saying tribulation saints are saved by works and without the Holy Spirit?
Good point Sean. That would make it a different gospel.
The tribulation is not “the wrath of God” it is the wrath of the devil… and we will experience it.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Read Revelation 6 . Its tge WRATH OF THE LAMB. And its the LAMB that opens the seal judgements
The word wrath first appears in the 6th seal, and in context indicates that God’s wrath is about to be poured out, not that it is already happening. It also coincides with the Sun beeing darkened and Moon turning to blood. Jesus said that those events happen after the tribulation. “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” Matt 24:29-31 So you are quite mistaken.
Mark, the book of Hebrews, written to …Hebrews, specifically, says, TODAY is the day of salvation, and if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion in the wilderness. In other words, TODAY, as long as it is called today, is their chance at salvation, just as it is for the Gentiles. There is no difference.
Tell me, where in the Bible does it mention that the 144,000 are evangelists who witness at all, let alone like they are on steroids? It doesn’t, and they aren’t.
Do dispensationalists not read Scripture? The writer of Hebrews says that the Gospel was preached to Israel in the Wilderness, but they refused to believe. It is the same Gospel that we believe. In addition, Paul says that Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentile by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In your Seed, all nations will be blessed.” The book of Galatians (and others) makes it clears that Christ is the Seed, and the book of Ephesians (and others) makes it clear just what those blessing are that we receive by faith. What are they? The promises given to Abraham. Jesus Christ is the ONLY heir to the promises, and all those “in Christ” by faith, become co-heirs. The ONLY way any Jewish person will inherit the Land, or any of the promises, is by becoming part of the body of Christ, by being baptised into His death and raised to life by His resurrection. There has been, and is, and will be, only ONE Gospel…the Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth!
“All Israel” are all those who are in Christ, the True Israel. He is the ONLY one who kept the covenant, and fulfilled the Law. In fact, He IS the Covenant.
Hi Angela. For some reason Scott hasn’t published any of my responses. I guess it’s because I was a little harsh. Nevertheless Galatians 1:8-9 is very clear concerning those who preach contrary to what the apostles taught.
Study Romans 2:3-11 (especially verses 6-9 because therein is found the Rapture and the Tribulation)
Here’s my thoughts on the subject.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53; “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
So when does immortality come? At the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture. What is immortality?
Here’s how Strong’s Concordance defines immortality.
“aphtharsia: incorruptibility
Original Word: ἀφθαρσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aphtharsia
Phonetic Spelling: (af-thar-see’-ah)
Short Definition: indestructibility, incorruptibility, immortality
Definition: indestructibility, incorruptibility; hence: immortality.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 861 aphtharsía – properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down. See 862a (aphthartos)”
So we understand that immortality has to do with our flesh. Doesn’t it? Sure it does. That’s what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. The dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed from mortal to immortality. Amen. So let’s see another passage of Scripture where te apostle taught on immortality.
Romans 2:3-11; “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
There is so much to glean from these verses but we will look at verses 6-9 because here the apostle teaches once again on immortality.
“[God] will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
So when does imnmortality come? At the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture. And what will God render to those who patiently and continually do good? “Glory and honour and IMMORTALITY, eternal life.” So this IS the Rapture, isn’t it? Sure it is. That’s exactly what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. And what will God render to those “…that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,”? God will render to them “…INDIGNATION AND WRATH, TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
And when does this rendering occur? Before or after the Tribulation? At the same time. Once the Rapture takes place the Tribulation begins.
Eugene, the problem with pre-trib theory is it makes three resurections. revelation says the resurection of the just is at the second coming and the resurection of the damned is after the millinial reign. If believers are resurrected before the tribulation then those martyred would be resurrected at the 2nd coming which brings us to the next problem. Pre trib says people will be saved in the tribulation through martyrdom (works). The whole world knows the pre trib idea now and unbelievers are always mocking when something happens like the blood moons and there was no rapture because they have no understanding of scripture. If God acts overtly through the rapture before the tribulation then he has shown his hand and people will come to him through works and not faith. Romans 3:30 Seeing there is one God who shall justify the circumcission by faith and the uncircumcission through faith. God demonstrated clearly in the Exodus that plagues can be poured out selectively.
Jesus said the end would be as the days of Noah. When the ark was shut up there were no more salvations other than Noah and his family who responded through faith. Pre tribbers say that the Jews will be saved in the tribulation. How can someone be saved after the door of the ark (grace) is closed?
I think it is much more important to prepare believers for persecution and endure to the end as Jesus said in Mathew 10.
I’m saddened that you consider the various points that I make “rambling comments” Scott. All I am doing is expounding on what the Scripture is already saying. Have you read all the comments I made Scott? Here’s another Rapture before Tribulation Scripture for you Scott. Romans 2:3-11; “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: BUT UNTO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” Now compare Romans 3:2-9 with 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:” These Scriptures support each other perfectly. Every single passage of Scripture I have given confirms that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation. But you won’t accept the truth because your lifes work of “Refuting The False Teaching of Pre-Tribulationism” will be ruined.
Craig, I have read all of your comments. You are not expounding on the scriptures. You are reading into them something that is not there.
Since you have kept your comment uncharacteristically shorter than usual, I will address the 3 references.
First Rom 2:3-11: The context of this passage is dealing with the general principal that all of humanity is heading toward one of two destinies; condemnation or forgiveness. It is obvious that this is not a reference to the “great tribulation.” In fact the rapture is not referenced in this verse at all.
Second Rom 3:2-9 Has absolutely nothing to do with the second coming, rapture or final judgement. It is because of these random unrelated verses that you bring up that causes me say that your comments are rambling.
Your final reference actually makes my point about the rapture occurring at the end of the tribulation rather than before. Why do I say that? Because 2 Thes 1:6-8 says our relief comes when Jesus returns in judgement with His angels. Pre-triblationists teach that our relief comes before the this.
I apologise. I meant compare Romans 2:3-11 with 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8. Whenever we see Indignation or Tribulation mentioned in the Scriptures we would do well to take careful note of the preceding Scriptures.
A Rapture that takes place after the Tribulation would certainly contradict other events foretold in the Scriptures. Matthew 24:29-31; “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE TRIBULATION AND IT IS NOT THE RAPTURE. Revelation 1:7; “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” (Compare Matthew 24:29-31 with Revelation 1:7) IT IS TO THE JEWS!!! See also Zechariah 12:9-14; “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.” NOW COMPARE ALL THREE PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE Matthew 24:29-31 Revelation 1:7 and Zechariah 12:9-14. Nobody can ever deny what really happens after the Tribulation because the Scriptures are very plain.
Craig, there is no separate plan for Jew and gentile. All are saved by faith. Paul said not to boast against the original branches. Romans 3:30 the circumcision and uncircumcision are saved by faith. Jews are very aware of the Christian pre tribes rapture theory. Millions of Christians being zapped away would prove Jesus as the messiah. They must come to Jesus in faith just as you, me and all Christians.
Where is those verses is a PreTrib Rapture mentioned?
Craig, the “man of sin” rises to power and does his work during the time of trouble.
2Thess. 2:3 says that “that day” speaking of Christ’s 2nd coming, “will not come except there come a falling away first and that “man of sin” be revealed, the son of perdition…”
This verse is clear that Christ’s return for His church has not yet taken place when the “man of sin” is revealed. Therefore, if the church is still on earth at this point; How can a pre-trib rapture be possible under these conditions?
Jesus also said that His return would be as the “Days of Noah”.
(Mat 24:37-39)
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Did God save Noah from the flood, or did He save him through the flood?
Israel’s Exodus from Egypt is an OT type of God’s plan of deliverance for His people. There’s many similarities in the seven last plagues of Revelation and the plagues that fell on Egypt.
Did God deliver Israel from the trouble that came upon Egypt, or did He deliver them in the midst of the trouble?
These are biblical realities that we need to be aware of, because God has promised to “never leave us or forsake us.” Heb. 13:5
Are we going to believe what He has said or not? Jesus is our provider and protector, and if we keep Him first, God will take care of everything else. My concern doesn’t need to be with facing a time of trouble, my concern needs to be with, “keeping Jesus first in my life”. When I’ve done this, God’s promise will take care of the rest.
Where is this entire passage is there are mention of a rapture occuring before a seven year tribulation?
The Scripture states that through patient endurance we receive glory, immortality, and eternal life, but for those who reject the goodness of God that would lead to repentance, there will be wrath, tribulation and anguish.
In other words, believers will receive glory, immortality and eternal life; unbelievers will receive wrath, tribulation and anguish.
The problem is, every time a PreTribbers sees the word tribulation, they automatically assume it refers to a supposed seven year period of wrath, and every time they see the word wrath, they assume it refers to a supposed seven year period of tribulation.
To the PreTribber,
tribulation = seven year tribulation
wrath = seven year tribulation
hour of temptation/trial = seven year tribulation
Jacob’s trouble = seven year tribulation
Seventieth week = seven year tribualtion
These are NOT synonymous.
Here is my understanding of the order of future events based on what the Scriptures say. 1. The next great event to take place is (of course) the Rapture of the Bride for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. (See Revelation 19:6-9) 2. The Tribulation. 3. Immediately after the Tribulation Jesus will return to the earth with His angels to destroy the beast and the false prophet and their armies and to reveal Himself to the 144000 Jews as Messiah. (See Daniel 12:1) Also in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (THIS IS THE TRIBULATION) to them that trouble you; (THE BRIDE WILL BE PERSECUTED JUST BEFORE THE RAPTURE AND THE TRIBULATION) And to you who are troubled rest with us, (SEE? HERE THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST AND THE RAPTURE WILL TAKE PLACE. HOW ELSE SHALL WE REST WITH PAUL AND THE OTHER SAINTS “…when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”) UNLESS THEY ARE RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND WE ARE RAPTURED TOGETHER WITH THEM?) Revelation 19:6-21 is the exact same order of events and it is exactly what I am speakin about. See also Isaiah 26:19-21; “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. BUT NOTICE THE VERY NEXT VERSES WHICH IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” (THE INDIGNATION IS OF COURSE THE TRIBULATION) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:” Do you see how the Scriptures must support each other? See? Rapture. Tribulation. Rapture. Tribulation. That’s what the whole Bible declares but we need to rightly divide Scripture. The Tribulation is not only for the Jews (Deuteronomy 4:30 Moses speaking to the Jews) but also for everyone who is not of the Bride. The Bride alone is Raptured. There is so much more to add to these few points and it requires much study and the leadership of the Holy Spirit but I am just part of the laity and not really a biblical student. Compare also Zephaniah 2:1-3; “Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD’S ANGER.” See Scott.
In Matthew18:16 the Bible says; “…that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.” Also in 2Corinthians13:1; “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” The Old Testament testifies the same in Deuteronomy19:15; “…at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.” Now Scott where are YOUR TWO OR THREE SCRIPTURAL (I repeat SCRIPTURAL) WITNESSES THAT THE RAPTURE WILL TAKE PLACE AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Use Scripture Scott. USE SCRIPTURE ONLY.
Hi Craig,
Nice to hear from you again.
God bless you Scott. Could you please place these events in their order as you see them in the Bible; When will the earth be burned? (Malachi4:1-3) The Tribulation Period? (Matthew24:21) The Rapture? (1Thessalonians4:13-17) The Millenium? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb? (Revelation19:9) The White Throne Judgment? (Revelation20:11-15) The Salvation of the 144,000 Jews? (Revelation7:1-17) etc etc. Please place these events in their rightful order according to your understanding of the Scriptures. Thanks.
Hi Craig. I do not presume to know everything there is to know about the end of the age. Rather than tell you what order I would place everything that you listed, I would rather tell you how I approach the scriptures, and then encourage you to use the same principles and then draw your own conclusions.
First and foremost, recognize that you are not reading an ordinary book; you are reading God’s revealed living word. Approach it with reverence and humility. Second keep it simple, stick with the simple literal interpretation. Let scripture inform your doctrine, don’t let your doctrine color your interpretation. Also it is helpful to remember that God often says the same thing repeatedly to emphasize future events. Like Pharaoh’s dreams interpreted by Joseph.
You will never end up getting a pre-tribulation rapture from the Bible following these principles.
These passages you provided contradict each other Scott. Read them very carefully. That group who were martyred during the Tribulation are not the Bride. No sir. They are the unwise virgin of Matthew 25:1-13. The Bride are the ones who sat on thrones (Revelation 20:4) and to whom judgment was given. 1 Corinthians 6:2.
The pre-trib Rapture theory says their will be tribulation saints who are saved by their martyrdom. The Word says we are saved through faith. Even if I am martyred it is a testimony of my faith and expression of my faith that saves me not the fact that I endured being killed for Christ. Matthew 25:10 says the door is closed on the unwise virgins who did not prepare just as the door on the ark was closed and then came the flood. Once the flood came there were no others saved. The wise virgin sets aside the oil for their lamp by storing the Word in their heart and are therefore prepared to endure to the end. All of the Words of Christ on the second coming have nothing to do with two stages. Christ was talking to believers, Jewish believers, but Christians since they believed the Christ.
There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for the same Lord over all is rich unto all who call upon him.
Do not boast against the original branches or you will also be grated out.
The parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 is absolutely a Rapture Scripture because when the Bride is Raptured She is taken to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Matthew 25:10; “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom (CHRIST) came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:(RAPTURE) and the door was shut.” In other words the unwise virgin missed the Rapture and had to go through the Tribulation (because they would not take the mark of the beast) to be martyred. No Gentiles will be saved in the Tribulation. No sir. There is no Mediator between God and man at that time. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” (Revelation 22:11) THE UNWISE VIRGIN IS ALREADY SAVED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION BUT BECAUSE SHE LACKED OIL IN HER LAMP (WHICH SYMBOLIZES THE BAPTISM HOLY GHOST) SHE WAS LEFT OUT OF THE RAPTURE AND THE MARRIAGESUPPER OF THE LAMB. Also read the end of the parable of the servants who were given the talents in Matthew 25:14-30; “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” In other words; “Cast the unprofitable servant into the Tribulation where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Also see Matthew 22:1-13. The wedding garment in this parable represents the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Matthew 22:11-13; “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” These are all Rapture Tribulation Scriptures. You guys really need to reconsider what you believe about the Rapture and the Tribulation.
Craig, rather than letting scripture speak for itself, you continue to cling to your false belief in pre-tribulationism and then try proving your point by taking multiple scriptures out of context and using circular reasoning. You’re making things way to complicated. If you would like me to respond to your assertions, please keep them short and succinct. These long rambling comments of yours are not serving to bring clarity to this issue.
Jesus spoke very clearly about the Holy Spirit and never once said anything about it not being in the world during the tribulation. John 14 and 16 clearly speak of the comforting and teaching parts of the Holy Spirit which are so necessary for the Jews and those who are lost to receive Christ up until th end. Rev 19:14 is continuously misquoted as Christ returning with the raptured saints where 2 Thes 1:7, Matthew 16:27, 24:30-31 and Mark 13:26-27 all refer to Jesus coming with his angels loudly and clearly to the world. John 17:15 Jesus prays that th Father will not take his children out of the world but keep thm through evil.
Regardless of when the rapture occurs: pre, mid or post all who believe by faith in Christ will be raptured. Our salvation is based on faith in the blood of the Lamb not faith in the rapture. No one looses their soul on this issue. Someone can loose their soul by falling away and rejecting Christ. If the abomination of desolation and the antichrist are both revealed before the rapture as it clearly says in 2 Thes 2:1-4 and Matthew 24 than the lost will say: “Did God really say that? Where is the promise of his coming? Your religion is wrong therefore this great man we now see is the real god.” Jesus said to come to him you must come as a little child. Woe unto anyone who teaches a little one wrong. Satan says: did God really say that?
Jesus said the coming of the Son of Man will be as the days of Noah. In the days of Noah the ark was prepared and the just and unjust lived together until the day of judgement. The just could have gotten in the ark at anytime by humbling themselves to God. Te door of the ark was shut just as the door will be shut on the unwise virgins and judgement will come. The believers will be protected from God’s wrath but not the world’s persecution until the end.
The last plague in Egypt was the instituting of the passover. The destroyer did not enter any house that had the blood of the lamb over the dorrpost just as the plagues of revelation will not effect anyone who has the Blood of the Lamb of God over the doorposts of their heart. But we must do the work of the Lord until the end proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What does Satan truly attack mercilessly: The exclusiveness of salvation through Jesus, Grace with repentance and God’s creation of all things. He doesn’t attack the rapture debate with the same vigor because it causes Christians to bite and devour one another. Brothers and Sisters, let us stand firm in proclaiming the Gospel, repentance from sin and God’s scientifically backed ability to create the living systems in the world we see all around us and just trust in the fact that jesus will return someday and bring all things into obediance of God.
Craig, You say no gentile will be saved during the tribulation? Revelation 7: 9-17 a great multitude of all nations who came out of tribulation (not before tribulation) and have made their robes white through the blood of the Lamb. What would be the point of the tribulation then if no one will be saved. If the tribulation is just God’s wrath what would be it’s purpose since God will cast all that offend into the bottomless pit. Don’t say the tribulation is to save the Jew since scripture says the Jew and the Greek are saved through faith and there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek. Why would the unwise virgins go through the tribulation and miss the rapture if you say they are already saved? You say they are saved but don’t have the Holy Spirit. Ifyou don’t have the Holy spirit you have not understood and accepted the Gospel therefore you are not saved.
Like Scott said Romans 2: 3-11 has nothing to do with the end times. It is a discussion on grace and faith and the consequences of not receiving the Gospel and repenting.
Jesus said you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake but he that endures to the end will be saved. Paul spoke numerous times of having joy in tribulations. I will say it again. The old testament is a picture of the new testament. Pharoh represented the antichrist, the Jews represented the church, the destroyer sent by God passed over the families that had the blood of the Lamb over the doorpost. Those who have the blood of the Lamb over the doorposts of their heart have nothing to fear from the tribulation.
Prove to me using Scripture that the martyrs are the foolish virgins. You are reading into Scripture what it does not say.
Craig, the parable of the Ten Virgins is definately the second coming amd the gathering of the elect which was mentioned several verses earlier. It is a continuation of chapter 24, which you believe is not about the Church, but Israel. You have completely taken the passage out of context. It happens “after the Tribulation of those days,” when Christ comes as a thief for those who are not prepared and those who have not been watching. No man knows the Day of His Coming, but when we see the signs told to us by Jesus, we will know it is near, even at the Door. “Then, at that time the kingdom of heaven will ne like ten virgins…” How could Jesus come as a thief? It will be a time of great deception and of a powerful delusion and most will not be watching for the signs. Like a frog that sits in hot water as the heat is turned up, so the foolish and the wicked will go about their business, unaware to the coming wrath.
You, and all PreTribbers seem to be missing the big picture. The Church is experiencing a falling away, an apostasy. More and more, the Church is turning to false doctrines, and the true Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is being lost to a happy, feel good social gospel that denies the reality of sin and of judgement and of hell. The prophet Amos tells us that it is a time when God will send a famine, not of Bread, but a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord. And people will stagger from sea to sea looking for truth, but will not find it. The Tribulation will be a time of darkness, when the light of the Gospel is lost. It will be a time of testing, a trial that will come of the whole earth, to test those on the earth. For the Church and Israel it will be a time of purification, when our faith will be tried. Many will fall away, and Satan will snatch the Word from the hearts of many, because of persecution, the cares of life and the deceitfulness of wealth. Many of the foolish will lose their way and stumble because they have not kept the Word as a Lamp unto their feet, and a light unto the path. And while they are frantically searching for some truth to explain the painful trial they are enduring, the Bridegroom will come and they will be left out of the Wedding. The faithful who keep Christ’s word to persevere, those who have hidden the Word in their hearts, will enter the Wedding Feast. But for the foolish, the Door will be closed. And this door is the same door that was closed on the Ark. One will be taken and the other left.
When God sent Israel into Babylon because of their rebellion and disobedience, He didn’t leave the faithful behind. He also sent Daniel and His friends. It will be the same with the Church. We will all be sent to Mystery Babylon, but just as a remnant of Israel returned, so also a remnant of the ten virgins will return to become the Bride. The rest will die and may be raised for the Great White Throne judgement. Their names will have been written in the Lamb’s Book, but they will have lost their reward.
Do you remember Peter? Jesus tells him that Satan had asked to sift him as wheat. During the hour of temptation, Jesus asks that they pray, lest they fall into temptation. But they fall asleep, the later Peter falls away and denies the Lord. But Jesus had prayed that his faith not fail, and Peter is restored, and the chaff (his pride) is removed from the wheat.
Satan has asked to sift the Church as wheat, just as he did with Peter and with Job, but Jesus has prayed that our faith not faith. And He has promised that for those who guard His Word through perseverance, will be guarded throught the hour of trial thatt is coming on the whole world.
It is through this hour that the Church will be made spotless, and our faith will come out as gold tried in the fire (James 1:2-4; And the Bride will finally be ready. And as Job was rewarded sevenfold, so the Church will receive the seven rewards for those who overcome the Beast and the Harlot.
Now, where in the Bible does it say that the martyrs are not the Bride. Give me one verse, please. PreTribber build a system of eschatology based on their opinions, and then force the Scripture to fit their scheme. But the wise see through the ruse.
One question Todd. How long will the Tribulation last? If the Rapture happens immediately after the Tribulation then that would contradict what Jesus said in Matthew 24:36.
The Day of Atonement is the day when the Bride and Groom exit their Wedding Chamber. But the question is, when did they enter the Wedding Chamber?
Passover was a betrothal. Pentecost was the Marriage. The Husband began implanting His Seed, the Holy Spirit, into the Woman at Pentecost, and the Weeding will be comsummated on the Day of Atonement. In other words, We have been in the Wedding Chamber for almost 2000 years. When the Bridegroom and Bride enter the Wedding Chamber, the Husband removes the Veil. What does Paul say? In Christ, the Veil is removed. By implanting His Seed in us, the Veil that covered our hearts is gone, and now “we who with unveiled faces reflect the Lord’s glory” are changed into His image with ever increasing glory. We are ALREADY married to Christ. If we were not, He would be engaging in fornication! The Manchild will be born at His Second Coming. The Head of the Manchild, Christ, was born at His First Coming. (The appearance of the head during childbirth is called “the crowning.”) He is the firstfruits, the guarantee of a future harvest of His Body, those that are His at His Coming. The Body of the Manchild, the Church will be born at His Second Coming. And just as His birth out of the Womb of the earth (His resurrection) was through the travail of the Cross, so our birth (rapture/resurrection) will be through the travail of great tribulation. We have not yet been “born again.” We are waiting for the Woman clothed with the Sun, the Bride of Christ, to deliver us. The Woman is NOT earthly Israel, but rather heavenly Israel. A great sign appeared in HEAVEN, a Woman…
In other words, Jesus betrothed us to Himself at Passover. His Second Coming BEGAN at Pentecost, as He comes to each believer to implant the Seed of the Word into their hearts, the Spirit into their Wombs. The Second Coming will culminate in His appearance when He and His Bride leave the Chuppah. (We are under the clouds now, in the Chuppah. Christ has entered the torn Veil (hymen) of His Bride, the Temple, which is in the heavens…we are raised up as seated in heavenly places with Him…now!.) We will celebrate the Wedding Feast, the Feast of Tabernacles, five days after our return, while the birds will feast on the dead who died at Armageddon.
Pentecost, the Wedding, began with the pouring out of the Spirit and will culmination at the darkening of the sun, moon and stars of the Sixth Seal. Jesus describes this event as the gathering of the elect from the ends of the heavens (the dead in Christ) to the ends of the earth (we who are alive and remain.) How long will the Tribulation last? Daniel tells us the saints will be worn down for a time, times and half a time. Revelation say the persecution will last 42 months, 1260 days. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that there will be a seven year Tribulation…not even in Daniel chapter 9. We don’t know when His coming is now, but when we see the signs, we will know it is “at the door.” The funny thing is, PreTribbers have been saying it “could be” at the door for decades. The sign we are to watch for must be the Abomination that causes desolation.
You make some interesting interpretations of scripture. However the veil that Paul mentions in 2 Cor 3 is speaking of the veil that was put over Moses’ face that hid God’s glory from the people of Israel. And then goes on to say that the Jews have a veil over their hearts as they read God’s word until and unless they turn to the Lord.
p.s. When did God marry Israel? At Pentecost, 50 days after they left Egypt.
A different group?
The saints who were martyred for their faith, who did not worship the beast, nor his image, or receive a mark of their forehead or hand, reign with Christ and thousand years. They are called “blessed.” These are the same souls which were under the Altar, which cried for judgement and vengeance, and were told to wait until the full number who were to be killed had been killed.
Revelation 20 says that these are given authority to judge. It also states that they will be priest of God and of Christ and that they will reign with Him a thousand years.
“And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Read that last verse CAREFULLY. The 24 elders and the souls of those slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus, who came out of great tribulation, are ONE AND THE SAME.
Notice, it says we SHALL reign on earth. They are not on earth as of yet, but are seated around the Throne in heaven, having beed raised up and seated in heavenly place in Christ. After the resurrection of their bodies, they will reign on earth.
The book of Revelation is not chronological. It is recapitulatory, and see past, present, and future as all being fulfilled.
The foolish virgins are lost. As in the days of Noah, there will be no second chance. The Door of the Ark, and of the Wedding Feast will be closed. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb after the Second Coming, after the Bride is presented to the groom by the Father, as she comes down out of heaven from God. It is represent by the Feast of Tabernacles, when God makes His home with man.
And just so you no, there is no “bride theft wedding scenario.” It is not found in any ancient or modern Jewish writing. That is why footnotes and bibliographies are never include. The only authors that are cited, are other dispensationalists as they copy and embelish and add to the scenario, took force it to fit what Scripture actually teaches.
Can you give Scripture proving that these are the unwise virgins, or is it an assumption and speculation based on a preconceived belief?
The fact is, dispensationalism is heresy, because it teaches two Gospels. Paul clearly stated that if any preach a gospel other than the one he preached, whether by man or angel, let him be cursed! It seems this was written specifically for dispensationalists as a witness against them, because, in the book of Revelation, during a supposed seven year tribulation when the Church is supposedly absent, an angel comes down preaching the eternal Gospel to every nation. Now if this is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, of salvation by grace through faith, then that angel is cursed.
mr scott you are 100% rite on that in revelations you all so can read rev:7:13-15
The biggest obstacle to the pre-trib rapture argument is Matthew 13 and the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. The harvest is simultaneous.
Also everything in the old testament is a picture of the New. In Exodus the plagues that fell on Pharoh did not fall on Goshen. God carries you through trials not out of them and makes it obvious to all that he is capable of differntiating when he does pour out judgement.
Another angle I never hear is the fact that All are justified through faith.
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God which will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcission through faith. People say the tribulation is for the Jews and will bring them to Jesus during that time. The pre-trib belief is widely published now. If millions of people disappear in a second and the common denominator is that they are all churchgoers. those who come to Christ afterwards will not come by faith but because they saw the hand of God. Atheists always ask if there is a God why doesn’t he cure all disease and end evil. the answer is that he wants people who will come to him by faith without seeing. So the idea of post rapture saints and the salvation of the Jews after a rapture does not align with being justified by faith.
Noah was saved because of faith but weathered the storm.
Daniel was saved by faith as well as the other Hebrew men but weathered the storm. All of the apostles stood strong in faith to the end.
To me the timing of the rapture is totally unimportant. My Christian brothers in North Korea are being run over by steamrollers for their faith. I do not want to teach someone that they will be safe from the coming global persecution and if they then have to endure to the end they fall away.
I don’t know how you KNOW about pre, mid, or post trib. You take one stance on it and there are 3 stances all of which can be proved with Scripture by whoever manipulates it the way they want. My bottom line is “no man knows,…” at least that’s what My King James Bible says!
Catherine, You’re right, no man knows the day or the hour. The problem is that pre-tribulationism emerged in the 19th century, post-tribulationism has always been believed and is easy to prove by a simple reading of the scriptures. The introduction of pre-tribulationism has watered down the warnings that Christ and the apostles gave to the church to sustain us through the tribulation and transferred them to the Jews. I suggest you read the previous article 6 Pre-Tribulational Arguments Refuted for the scriptures that back up my claim. Also I hold the KJV in high regard, but to claim it is the only viable translation is foolish. God bless you as you study His word.
There was no reply on the other post so I’m using this one. You said, “You make some interesting interpretations of scripture. However the veil that Paul mentions in 2 Cor 3 is speaking of the veil that was put over Moses’ face that hid God’s glory from the people of Israel. And then goes on to say that the Jews have a veil over their hearts as they read God’s word until and unless they turn to the Lord.”
Yes, I agree with this, but I also believe that the Word that Moses read is also the Seed. The word “testimony” comes from an oath taken while placing the hand on the “thigh,” or the testicles. There were three items in the Ark of the Covenant. The two Tablets of the testimony represent the testicles. The Rod of Aaron that budded represents the male organ. And the golden pot of Manna which represents the seed of Christ, the Word. The Ark of the Covenant represents Christ who entered into the Most Holy Place of His Bride, through the torn Veil, which represents the hymen. In other, words God was attempting to place the Seed of the Word in His Bride Israel, but He was not able to because of unbelief. Without the Spirit in our hearts we remain blind. But for the Christian, when Jesus places His Seed in us, the Veil is lifted. Having believed we are marked in him with a Seal, the promise Holy Spirit. The Seed, the Holy Spirit gives us understanding and the ability to see the glory of God in the face of Christ. The Veil is being lifted.
Every time someone comes to the Lord, Christ places a portion of His Seed in them. That is why I believe the marriage is now being consummated. I don’t believe Pentecost is completely fulfilled yet. We are still waiting the the Latter Rains which bring in the 144,000 and the great multitude which comes out of great tribulation. The seven weeks during the Counting of the Omer represents the present age when the fullness of the Gentiles is being added.
A question. Do you believe the resurrection/rapture will happen on Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, or none of the above?
Hello Todd,
I do not pretend to have all the answers when it comes to prophecy. My disagreement with pretribulationism is based on 2 things. One is that there is no clear biblical basis for it and the second is practical. There are numerous instructions and warnings for Christians that pertain to the period of time commonly referred to as the great tribulation. Pretribulationism makes those warnings and instruction void because they deny Christians will be there. I do not have an opinion on whether the rapture will coincide with any particular Jewish holiday. I’m also reluctant to ascribe the symbolism to the ark of the covenant that you have. The word “revelation” as in the book of revelation means unveiling or the lifting of a curtain. So as events in time unfold, I believe the future fulfillment of prophecy will become more and more clear as we approach Crist’s second coming. I believe the restablishment of the state of Israel is one of those events.
We cannot serve two masters. The belief of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture can be considered an idol as it provides salvation that is not present within the Holy Scripture. This belief allows men to continue their actions believing that Grace will allow them to escape the trials to come. This is not a humble look at salvation but an entitled view. According to Matthew 24 the first instructions Jesus gave was to not be deceived. The Pre-Tribulation view allows deception to creep into the heart of mankind and limits their growth. If they believe that they will be taken prior to any trials, then there is no reason to learn what the trials are. If we understand that the trials are to make the harvest ripe, then we will do all we can to become ripe in God’s eyes. We are instructed that we can tell the Good by the Fruit they produce. What kind of Fruit does the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory produce? Complacent, arrogant, self-entitled believers that don’t understand that their work has only begun and has not been completed! If we understand our work has only begun, then we will strive to learn and grow as much prior to the end of the age. Otherwise the Church will not be ready to do God’s work during the most important time in history!
Clinton Kowach
Amen. You put it well. Our work has just begun. May God grant that eyes be opened!
I think it was on a David Jeremiah radio sermon that he claimed that at the pre-trib rapture, Satan knows he only has 7 years until the “second coming”, [third, if you’re counting]. I found Dr Jeremiah (ardent pre-tribber) to be inadvertantly letting on just who exactly his father was. Satan. Jesus taught that only His Father knows, but deceived Dr Jeremiah worships a “jesus” who secretly knew that Satan would have a 7-year heads-up, but publically taught the opposite, that only the Father knows. In other words, a liar. The devil is a liar. Do the spiritual math.
All false teachings ultimately can be traced to the unblessed idolatry of worshipping a liar and slapping a Jesus name-badge on it. Deceived devil worship, essentially. It is quite pandemic.
Here’s another. Pre-tribbers worship a “jesus” who secretly knew that the prophecy in Daniel 9 would not be fulfilled for thousands of years, but publically taught He came to fulfill all things prophets & law, Matthew 5:17, Matthew 11:13, Luke 21:22, John 19:28. In other words a liar. Satan is a liar. Do the spiritual math to discover who pre-trib enthusiasts have been tricked by Darby and his crew (false prophets) into worshipping.
Pre-tribbers claim they merely take scripture literally, verse by verse. Look how they end up adding thousands of years into Daniel 9! They forget all about their virtuous claims of literality. And suddenly in Rev 3:10 an hour magically becomes 7 years of tribulation. There are zero verses dealing with a literal, 7 years of tribulation after a rapture (from Latin Vulgate. Who arrogates that we must constantly genuflect to the Vulgate around this one word?). It is all eisegesis. Such hypocritical, utterly deceived liars. They might as well be arrogant.
Don’t get me started on Moslems, Mormons, Satanists, Seventh-day Adventist sabbath frauds, JW’s, those totally unable to deny self (arminians), Calvinists who lie about atonement (still failing to deny self), Luderans (his real name was not Luther!), Steve Gregg radio show (very knowledgable, dangerous deceiver), Maryolatrists, etc, so on and so forth, what have you, and then some.
Hello Elmer,
I have a scripture for you to consider.
Most people misapply this verse to provide themselves cover from criticism, not wanting to be judged themselves. That is not what I’m trying to point out here.
I draw your attention to it so that you might apply it the way it is intended. Particularly when it comes to the phrases, “by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you,” and “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?” Based on what I believe you were inferring, you sound to me like a preterist. It seems to me that you have the log of preterism in your eye while casting judgment on others. If one holds to this position, then Titus Caesar Vespasianus becomes the coming of Christ. In my mind, that is far more serious of an error than pretribulationism.
Please do not mistake my criticism as an acceptance of Roman Catholicism or any of the other isms you mentioned. I’m merely pointing out that you may need to do a little self-examination.