In your two mentions you made a statement, “@NoPreTrib The tribulation is for the unsaved Gentiles and the Jews. The church will be raptured before hand.” In the second you listed 5 passages of scripture either to support your previous statement or to attempt to establish pre-tribulationism as a Biblical teaching, “@NoPreTrib Rev 3:10, John 14:1-3, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Thess 4:13-18.” The last reference I assume you meant 1 Thess 4:13-18 as 2 Thess only has 3 chapters.
Since Twitter does not provide adequate space to respond, I have written this post to address your assertions.
First the idea that the tribulation is for the unsaved Gentiles and Jews and that the Church will be raptured beforehand. That is not the purpose of the tribulation, it is to glorify and justify God’s word and work, and to show the world that there is none like Him. This precedent is clearly illustrated in the Exodus from Egypt. Which Paul gives us as the example to compare ourselves to in 1 cor 10:1-13 and particularly vs. 10 he says …”upon whom the ends of the world are come…” the context is overcoming temptation during perilous times, and being delivered through it.
Now lets examine the scriptures that you gave and see if they do teach a pretribulation rapture.
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- Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Three observations: The context is letters to the seven Churches. If this was promising a pretribulation rapture it would not be addressed to one Church and not the others. Also He is talking about holding fast and persevering and overcoming Satan’s followers. This has its culmination during the tribulation. Greek: The operative phrase is “keep thee from” in Greek “tereo ek”. Tereo means to “watch over, guard or protect”. Ek is a preposition that usually means “of”, there is another Greek preposition that means “from”, that word is “apo”. Apo is the word that would have been used had the meaning been intended to convey the idea of not entering the tribulation. The word ek more properly implies protection through. Other translations of the Bible bear that out.The Message: …I’ll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon…
Amplified: …I also will keep you[safe] from the hour of trial (testing)…
New Living Translation: …I will protect you from the great time of testing…
Contemporary English Version: …I will protect you from the time of testing…
God’s Word Translation: …I will keep you safe during the time of testing…
Worldwide English New Testament: …So I will keep you safe in the time of trouble…
Wheymouth: … I in turn will guard you from that hour of trial…
Good news Bible: …I will also keep you safe from the time of trouble…John Darby on the other hand who is the father of dispensational pretribulationism and originated this teaching in the 1830′s wrote his own translation of the Bible. This is how he translates it “…I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial…” This is purely a case of twisting the scripture to get it to agree with with a doctrine one already believes.The former President of Dallas Theological Seminary which is the intellectual center for dispensational pretribulationism and author of “The Rapture Question” John Walvoord admits, “it may be debatable to what extent this (verse, Rev. 3:10) constitutes absolute proof for pretribulationism.”- John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
In context, this passage is not dealing with the rapture at all. Instead Jesus is telling Peter that he will deny knowing Jesus, and after telling him that assures him that he will have a place in Heaven and will get to be with Jesus. Jesus here is about to die and Peter is about to deny Him, yet Jesus is telling Peter that He will return and receive him following his denial. This verse is not speaking of the rapture and even if it could be argued that it were, you still lack anything here that would make it pretribulational.
- 1 Cor 15:51-52 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
Here is a case where the rapture is clearly being taught, however again not in a pretribulational context. Instead the timing of the rapture is within a specific sequence of events. First you have the last trumpet (that occurs immediately preceding Christ’s coming at the end of the tribulation). Second the dead in Christ are raised. This first resurrection is mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 and includes those who did not worship the beast or take his mark, and again this is at the end of the tribulation at the time of the second coming. Then after these two events, living believers are transformed into incorruptible bodies, not before.
- 1 Thess 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, …
The definition of wrath is subject to the context. Throughout the Bible God and man have both demonstrated wrath. The question is what wrath is being spoken of here? In this verse you have the answer, it is the wrath that is contrasted by salvation. It is the same contrast that Jesus made in John 3:36. The prior context of 1 Thess 5 does deal with the second coming, but in that context Jesus comes as a thief to those who are sleeping when they should be watching and are drunk when they should be sober. Clearly the salvation being spoken of is the salvation of the soul. Consider Job, he was suffering greatly through no fault of his own and did not understand what was happening from God’s perspective. He was not suffering the wrath of God, but he did suffer terribly. Don’t you think that God is saying to Satan even now “Have you considered my Church?” Just like Job when our tribulation comes, let us not curse God but rather say “though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.”
- 1 Thess 4:13-18 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Again, the rapture is clearly being taught here but not in a pretribulational context. Exactly the opposite is the case. First Jesus returns not secretly but with the trumpet of God. Then the dead are raised, and then living Christians are transformed. The bottom line is there is no pretribulation rapture, it is a false teaching being promoted by many well meaning individuals and some not so well meaning. The Bible says that in the last days many would not endure correct teaching but will listen to false teachers telling them what their itching ears want to hear. Most people would not volunteer to go through the tribulation and that is understandable but contrast that with Paul rejoicing to be counted worthy to suffer for His Name. Our brothers and sisters in foreign lands that are suffering for the gospel must look upon us with amazement when they see what lengths we will go to to avoid it.
- Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Three observations: The context is letters to the seven Churches. If this was promising a pretribulation rapture it would not be addressed to one Church and not the others. Also He is talking about holding fast and persevering and overcoming Satan’s followers. This has its culmination during the tribulation. Greek: The operative phrase is “keep thee from” in Greek “tereo ek”. Tereo means to “watch over, guard or protect”. Ek is a preposition that usually means “of”, there is another Greek preposition that means “from”, that word is “apo”. Apo is the word that would have been used had the meaning been intended to convey the idea of not entering the tribulation. The word ek more properly implies protection through. Other translations of the Bible bear that out.The Message: …I’ll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon…
Scott, the elephant in the room is Dispensational theory: which is applied as if it were assumed scientific fact! An example of dispensational circular argument is John being called up to heaven to see the things that will take place “After these things” ( proving Pre-Trib ). This is based on the assumption that the church age dispensation ends just before the 70th week begins. this being the case the church age believers must be removed before 70th week ( instead of 70th week they use “TRIBULATION,” an additional misnomer since we know from Matt.24:15-28 that the great Trib is only half of the 70th week ).
First let me says that we are brother in Christ and that your part of my spiritual family:) You says in one of your post if the KJV is the only one what about the others persons who does not speak english. I will answer by what about the first 5 books that were written only in Hebrew?????????????? if Others peoples wanted to read it in the times of Moses? What about the manuscripits that were translate from hebrew to Greek in the time of Jesus? The Lord always unse only one language to keep his word. He use 7 languages in all human history and in the end time it is english. Im a french and i leard english to read the true word of God. And to understand that the Lord will rapture us before the tribulation you need to have the word of God the KJV. That is why so many peoples are confure about that subject because they read corrupt versions and made their own theology out of it. they pick 1 verse from NIV, one verse from ASV etc… At the end they become their own private interpreter of the word of God. No authority.
Of course if you really wants to prove your point with a good doctrinal study on the pretribulation rapture you need to find a study of that subject from a King James bible believing church. That will be a lot more complete that the study that you choose to prove your point.
Dominique, Thank you for your reply. I suggest you re-read the post. You did not address a single point that I raised. Instead, you chose to invalidate everything I said by saying that I’m using the wrong English Bible when English is not even your first language. I welcome you to use the KJV as you go back and look at the points I was attempting to make and then tell me from the KJV why you don’t agree with my conclusions. The reason I cite multiple translations is to show harmony in translation. But this is not a forum for KJV only debate. It is show what Christians should expect in the last days.