One of the many arguments I hear in favor the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is comes from 1Thes 5:9 which reads:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ…
This is not an explicit statement that Christians will not be living on the earth during the tribulation, instead it says that God has not appointed or destined Christians to face His wrath. Instead of starting with the assumption of a pre-tribulation rapture and then using this text to affirm it, lets look at what the text says in context and see what other examples of escaping God’s wrath can be found in the Bible and see if they can shed light on this important subject.
In context the passage reads 1Thes 5:1-11
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
This is one of few passages in scripture that at first glance seems to support the pre-tribulation position, and pre-tribulationists appeal to it often. However when you read it without a pre-tribulational presupposition the meaning of wrath is fairly clear.
The context of the passage begins by affirming that Christians should understand how Christ will return, and does so by contrasting how the day of the Lord will come to those who believe and those who don’t. The unbeliever does not see it coming because they are in darkness. Christians on the other hand are in the light and should not be taken by surprise at His coming.
Then there is a warning for Christians not to fall asleep and and to become like those in the world. Next is a command to walk soberly, in faith and love, and hope of salvation. It is after mentioning the hope of salvation that Paul says, “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,” again salvation is mentioned.
The contrast and comparison should be obvious; salvation-wrath-salvation. Salvation is mentioned twice and in both instances are contrasted with wrath. However the salvation mentioned is the salvation of the soul, not salvation from the tribulation. The context definitely bears this out.
So what does wrath mean, is it synonymous with the tribulation? The answer is no for two reasons. The first is simply the context of the passage. The second is that the contrast between the wrath of God and the salvation of Christians is repeated throughout the New Testament. Below are just a few examples:
- John 3:35-36
- Romans 1:16-20
- Romans 2:1-11
- Romans 5:8-11
John Nelson Darby 1800-1882
It is also highly unlikely that that the deliverance from wrath spoken of to the Thessalonian church referred to escaping the great tribulation by way of the rapture. The reason being the day of the Lord did not occur in their lifetimes or in the lifetimes of Christians living for the past 2000 years. To claim otherwise would mean that the true meaning of this text was hidden until the advent of dispensational theology and the pre-trib rapture teaching when it was introduced to the Church in the 1830’s by John Darby. It would be hard for the early Christians to take comfort from a promise that they did not understand.
Too many times so called ministers pick and chose verses out of context! We need to read all of the context to understand what, who is being addressed! Look close at the verses and you should see darker numbers and lighter numbers to the next darker number. This gives the context of what is being talked about. Also the intro of the books. Like 2 Peter tells you who is being talked to. CONTEXT IS EVERYTING! Everyone can make the Bible say anything they want by not giving the whole context. To mean what ever they want the verses to say. SHAME ON THOSE WHO DO THIS! All of us are also guilty of reading the Bible too fast. Missing words or thinking we see words that are not there. SLOW DOWN! READ THE VERSES 2 or3 TIMES! Then think about what you read!
Thank you, what do you see are the potential dangers of believing a pre-trib rapture
Deception, disillusionment, and falling away.
I think another danger is that God does not grant repentance to those who will not acknowledge the truth.
Hi
To prescribe to an idea there is no rapture is foolish in itself. The rapture is not a coming of Christ but an appearance. MOST PEOPLE BECOME CONFUSED BECAUSE THEY PRESCRIBE IT AS A COMING, THE 2ND COMING. THUS CAUSING CONFUSION. The bible tells us that his children God’s or son’s and daughters those he gave the right to become sons. Those that belive in Christ in other words for it is through Christ that this is given. As it is Christ that overcame the sin of Adam, me and you. death. Thos that belive that because God judged my sin , if I accept Christ, by rendering Christ who knew no sin to be judged by accepting my sin. Firstly you call God a liar when He says His sons shall not go through his day of wrath. 2ndly you deny the works of Christ.
Hello David,
Your argument is without merit. First of all, I never said there is no rapture. So you are misrepresenting what I have written and believe. Second, if there is confusion, it is because pretribulationism is not explicitly taught in scripture and in fact, contradicts much of what scripture does teach on the subject. It does not follow a logical line of reasoning. Third, most pretrib teachers refer to the rapture as “a coming” of Christ. Hence you now have a second and a third coming and that is confusing for the person who blindly accepts it. Fourth, Jesus warned His disciples in Matthew 24 that at the end of the age, His followers would see tribulation worse than anything previously seen on earth. So who is really denying the works of Christ and at the same time, rendering His warnings to believers as null and void? I never said that going through the tribulation somehow pays for sin but disregarding Jesus’ plain warnings especially in these times is a recipe for apostasy.
Hello. My name is Michael. I have pastored the same NT Baptist Church for 21 years now. My question is this: “If the Church, will go through the Great Tribulation, and seeing that the majority of the Church is in Heaven, wouldn’t God have to send the Church back to the earth to go through it?
Hi Michael, thanks for your question. This is an interesting question that I’ve never been asked before. I don’t actually see this as a potential problem with a posttribulational position. The question assumes that a belief that the Church going through the tribulation, necessitates the “whole Church” experiencing it. I think this is analogous to a politician that creates a non-existent problem so they can take credit for solving a non-issue.
Paul, when discussing the order of the rapture says, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.” 1 Thes 4:15 So Paul is making it clear that not all believers will be alive when Christ returns. There is an expectation that believers will continue to “fall asleep” until Jesus returns. That in and of itself does not necessitate the rapture to be pretribulational.
Hello Brother Scott. Thanks for taking my question, and I truly enjoyed the phone call. I so desire studying God’s Word and I also enjoy the challenge of understanding, and being open to interpretation, along with attempting to explain myself. I read your reply to my question and I appreciate it. I also understand that the primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, in which you refer to (vs.15) in the (NASB) using the word “precede” = “to come or go before”, however the (KJV) states, “that we (Church-Bride-Body, etc.) which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not “prevent” = “To keep from happening” them (Church-Bride-Body) which are asleep. Which states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. God’s removing of His people from the earth before the Great Tribulation, seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character concerning the rapture and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” I’m sure we both agree that the book of Revelation, which teaches primarily the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Great Tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.
And let’s not forget Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. I think it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. Not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Great Tribulation. I want to thank you, also for asking me about the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5, because that is a question that I had never been asked before, as well, so I had to go back and study it out. I soon realized that Revelation 20:6 identifies those involved in the “first resurrection” as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29). So, The “first resurrection” must place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the “first resurrection”. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4). I then also realized that Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the “second resurrection” as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29). I also saw in the book of The Revelation that the event which divides the “first and second resurrections” seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5). Which stands to reason that the purpose of the Rapture, the purpose of the Great Tribulation, the interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation. Thank you, my friend for making me study… I truly mean that.
Shalom Michael!
You are right, all believers in Christ will be in the Resurrection/Rapture. The question is, when will this happen and has the First Resurrection two stages or is it one. The Greek protos points always to the first, here of two resurrections,the next is 1000 years later and not 1007. There are 3 resurrections in the bible, where the body changes into immortality. 1. Christ and the First-fruits (OT Saints). 2. AFTERWARDS they that died in Christ at His 2. coming (parousia). The OT saints are not included in the first resurrection, they are First-fruits and not in the main harvest of believers in Christ. 3. The end are believers of the last judgement, written in the book of life.. This is the harvest of people that go into the Kingdom of God. The so called tribulation Saints are part of the main harvest (First Resurrection). They die in Christ and belong to the body of Christ.
1. Thess 4:15 “we (includes Paul) which are alive and remain (Greek survive) points to His 2. coming.
Concerning the Wrath of God, Post-trib agrees with every other view, we are not appointed to His wrath. The Rapture comes before God pours out His wrath. Again, the question is, when does His wrath come. Rev tells us, that it comes in 6:16+17; 11:15-18: 16:15-19 and 19:15. That is at His 2. coming. Is there a gap of 7 years between our Salvation(Rapture) and the Wrath of God, the destruction of the wicked? Luke 17:29+30 says both are on the same day. Paul says the same and called that day the DotL in 2. Thess 2:1-4. (BTW the Greek noun apostasia has no departure in it. The bibles that have departure, translated it from the Latin Vulgate and in their commentaries say it means falling away or apostasy.) The Day of the Lord are not the 7 nor the 3 1/2 years, because that day is connected to the cosmic disturbances (Mat 24:29: Joel 2:31: Acts 2:20). It happens at His 2. coming.. He comes at a thief for the unbelievers 1. Thess 5:1-5 and Rev 16:15-19, the believers know the times, Jesus (Mat24:29-31) and Paul (2.Thess2:1-9) told us, after the revealing of the AC and after the Great Tribulation.
Rev 3:10 is promised to one of the seven churches. Jesus says in John 17:15, that we will be protected from the evil one. This will happen in Rev 12, the true believers in Christ, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). Mystery Babylon and her daughters will face the plagues in the Great tribulation.
Hello Michael. I enjoyed our conversation as well. I’ll get right to the point with regards to the issues you’ve raised. First the intended meaning of the word phthanō which is alternatively translated as precede or prevent.
Thayers Greek Dictionary defines it as:
T. A. Robertson, the foremost Greek Scholar of the 20th century said regarding this verse:
Based on this and the context of the verse, it seems to me to mean what it says. The dead rise first, then living believers. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no implication that living believers would have any way to prevent the dead from rising. So such an interpretation is not warranted. In this case the KJV does not render the best translation.
Your second point, “God’s removing of His people from the earth before the Great Tribulation, seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character concerning the rapture and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world.” It would be great if God said He would raise the dead and us with them before the tribulation, but He never did. You won’t find it taught anywhere in scripture. Also, predicting future prophecy based on what we think God would or should do is dangerous. Especially if He has said the opposite. Job’s friends used this same type of reasoning to falsely accuse Job of offending God and incurring His judgement when the whole time Job was innocent. God in His mercy has given us great insight here by allowing us to see what Job did not. Job persevered under tremendous trial and in like manner, I believe that God wants us to persevere. And just as Satan said to God that Job would curse Him to His face, Satan, the accuser of the brethren is standing by to unleash his worst against us believers, telling God we will fail just as he said that Job would. If keeping believers from the great tribulation were in keeping with God’s character, He never would have allowed righteous Job to suffer the way he did.
Third, I believe you’re making the same mistake that other pretribulationists do by conflating the great tribulation with God’s wrath. They’re not the same thing. I deal with this topic in greater detail in this article and deal with Rev 3:10 in more detail in https://nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted.
Going back to Rev 20. Of course other dead have been raised. Elijah and Elisha both raised the dead, a man was raised from the dead when he touched Elisha’s bones, Jesus is reported to have raised people from the dead during His earthly ministry like Lazarus, Jesus Himself rose as did many of the prophets and saints at His resurrection, Peter raised Dorcas and Paul raised Eutychus. The fact that they are dead in Christ in Rev 20 and are called “blessed and holy” does not mean that those who have already been resurrected are part of the first resurrection spoken of in Rev 20. In 1 Cor 15, Paul says that there are the first fruits (already past), and those who are Christ’s at His coming. This dovetails perfectly into Rev 20 and in this scenario, no pretrib rapture is stated nor implied. Also, in the second resurrection, it is not stated that only the wicked will be raised. Some people will die during the Millenium and they will be raised too.
Stay in the word, but not to validate what you already believe. Let it have the final say. I don’t claim to have all the answers but I know that preribulationism is not arrived at through sound, Biblical exegesis.
Shalom Scott!
I agree with your reply to Michael. Rev 3:10 I studied more closely. The keep means to preserve from the evil one, like in Jn 17:15, where Jesus prayed, not to take the Saints from this world. But the meaning is not from out of, but a separation from, that means like the woman in Rev 12 to be protected and nourished by angels in refuge places. The hour is the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years and not 7 years. The AC gets power with 10 kings (Rev 17:12) for one hour, which are also 3 1/2 years (Rev 13:5). In no way is Rev 3:10 a proof for a Pre-trib Rapture!
According to the resurrections we have to distinguish between the resurrection of a single person with His mortal body and the resurrections in 1. Cor 15:23&24, this three resurrections are of the Saints with an immortal body, every one in his order, first Christ and after Him (with Him) the AT Saints. The Greek in 1.Cor 15:20 says, that Christ’s resurrection is the First fruit (First fruits Strong’s) for them that fell already asleep. Afterwards come ALL the NT Saints (including Saints of the Tribulation). Then the end, the resurrection of Jn 5:29 of the just (Millennium Saints) and the unjust (the rest of the dead).
This resurrections are the harvest with First fruits, main harvest (First Resurrection) and gleanings. The resurrection of the NT Saints tells us,when the Rapture comes, because Paul gave us the order. Pre-trib is adding another resurrection, as they do with another coming of Christ and another 7 year dispensation
To start, my understanding and insight is post-great tribulational of the resurrection rapture.
The first fruit to be raised immortal is only Messiah Yeshua then upon His 2nd return those who have died in Him where both old and new saint who died in faith will recieve the promise together.
In your comment that those who were previously raised back to life before Yeshua and after but before the first general resurrection, you assume they were made immortal in the Image and Glory of Yeshua’s humanity?
I don’t accept this because Yeshua was always the preeminent one who would recieve all the promises and gifts toward the human elect first especially of immortality within the human nature .and it is through Faith in Him that we will partake in the spoils of His firstborn inheritance that was ratified in His death, at our appointed time.
That although to know relationally God we have everlasting life qualitatively, it is not until the appointed time that all saints who have died in Messiah Yeshua both old covenant and new covenant at the point of His coming with the clouds like a thief in the night during the 6th vial will such saints partake together in the conformity of Yeshua’s image and glory obtaining together of all those who have died in faith, quantitatively everlasting life at the first and blessed resurrection of which death has no power over. Being the resurrection unto everlasting life(Daniel 12:2)
No other resurrection besides Yeshua’s and the first general resurrection upon His return with those who died in faith at His 2nd coming does death not have power over the person.
So even though others were raised to life before and after Yeshua’s death and resurrection no one who dies in Yeshua will be conformed quantitatively to Yeshua’s image and glory as immortal until the first general resurrections unto everlasting life at His 2nd arrival.
So yes this means others who were raised to life before by the prophets of old. And after Yeshua’s resurrection wether it be of Matthew 27 or by the Apostles of new. These people were raised mortal.thus they were still able to die.
But those who although were brought back to life and or raised mortal as saints, when they return spiritually with Christ in the clouds they will at the first resurrection which is the resurrection of everlasting life will be conformed to immortality.
There is a lot of controversy between the believers in Christ Jesus as to when the rapture will happen. Please keep in mind that as believers in Christ Jesus (His birth, sinless life, death on the cross, resurrection, ascension, our rebirth through the Spirit) We are all counted as children of God through faith in Christ Jesus, let us keep in mind that our Lord has called us to obey his commandments and one of the greatest commandments is that we love one another.
My prayer is that the body of Christ be united as one and have that mind of Christ towards one another in all humility and humbleness regarding one another as better than ourselves, not being puffed up in knowledge towards one another please consider 1 Corinthians 13:2 “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing” Is it more important to the Lord that we know when the rapture will happen or is it more important to Him that we are abiding in Him and are fruitful ie love, joy, peace, longsuffering towards one another.
Let us adopt an attitude of wait and see, what ever is appointed by God will happen, if pretrib happens great, but let us also be prepared for posttrib keeping this scripture in mind:( Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”) We should not let contentions arise over the interpretation of bible prophecy lead us into unloving behaviours such as spiteful remarks being posted towards one another or outright separation in the body of Christ.
The more important issue is that God has called us to oneness as a body having the same care for one another and towards one another not based on our personal knowledge and interpretation of the scriptures but on our willingness to obey his commandments regarding how the body of Christ should treat one another and love one another, consider this if we are pleasing to Him regarding our relationships with one another then I am sure He would be willing to lead us towards a greater understanding of scripture, but if we are already arguing and responding to one another in such ways would the Lord see fit to give us more to argue about?
Hello John. I’m in agreement with you in part and share your concern. Allow me to clear up a fallacy in this regard. The fallacy is this, “If we contend over doctrine i.e. truth we become unloving.” Happily, you don’t fall into this at the beginning of your statement as you rightly seek to qualify what a believer is based on an understanding of truth. That truth being a correct understanding and belief in “His birth, sinless life, death on the cross, resurrection, ascension, our rebirth through the Spirit.”
Now let me ask you, if you met a person that identifies as a believer, would you consider it unloving to correct that person if they denied the virgin birth, or said that Jesus sinned, or said Jesus did not die on the cross or that His death was not a one-time sacrifice for sin, or said that Jesus was not physically raised from the dead but spiritually raised, or that He was neither raised or ascended, or denied that Jesus can regenerate sinful men and that we have to earn salvation? You get the point?
It is logically inconsistent to say that contending for the truth of prophecy is any different than contending for the facts of history. All the prophets speak of His future return, Jesus Himself spoke of facts concerning His return, The Apostles spoke of the circumstances of His return and what we must do to be ready, and Jesus through the Apostle John (the Apostle of love) who spoke more of love and unity than any of the other Apostles gave us Revelation, an entire book dedicated to the prophetic events that are coming. So, it is no more unloving to contend for the truth of revealed prophecy any more than it is any other vital doctrine related to Christ.
Here is where I share your concern. Believers can contend in an unloving way and with impure motives. Therefore we must have discernment, love of the brethren, and love for the truth so that when we contend over truth, we do so in a way that honours and pleases the Lord. Remember that when Jesus prayed for us to be in unity in John 17 He also said we are to be sanctified in truth. Unity at the expense of truth creates unity against the truth.
Amen to that brother, I totally agree that we need to contend for the truth of the Gospel especially when it concerns the foundational redemptive works of Christ Jesus and our individual understanding and acceptance of those truths.
Galations 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Let me just say that when it comes to defending the truth, salvation issues are of ultimate importance as scripture states that it is not the will of God that any should perish but that all should come to repentance and acknowledgment of the truth. I would also suggest that a true conversion could only happen through a correct understanding, acknowledgment and personal acceptance of those foundational gospel truths.
Let us consider this scripture: John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” So even if I have believed and accepted the gospel I can take no credit for it. We should always humble ourselves under the almighty hand of God even if we are convinced that we know what the truth is.
1 Corinthians 8:1,2 Now concerning things offered to idols; We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
Is it required of God that we know all mysteries and interpretations of prophecy to receive salvation and enter into His kingdom?
2 Peter 1: 20,21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Prophecies are only truly confirmed once they come to pass and we see them happening as spoken of, and consider this we may not truly understand them until they are fulfilled. When Christ appeared in the flesh who thought that he was going to have to submit himself to the cross in obedience to the Father as he did. It was only after these things when the disciples were on the road to Emmaus that He opened their understanding to all the prophetic scriptures concerning him and what was to happen to him. (luke 24:13-27)
God gives us His prophetic word so that we will know and believe that he is God, to inspire us to faith and obedience to Him.
Isaiah 46: 9,10 “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. Saying, My counsel shall stand.
Our understanding of unfulfilled prophecy is only important to the extent that we will recognize it when it comes to pass so that we may fall on our face before our Creator and Savior in awe of His greatness. Since the rapture will be happening in a moment of time our true understanding of it will be instantaneous and we will be immediately with Him, and we shall know Him for we shall see Him as he is. So in closing might I suggest that we prepare ourselves for a post trib rapture by obeying him today through prayer and supplication for all saints to the edification of ourselves and others, willing to be loving and kind to one another when discussing these issues and if necessary agree to disagree on these not so important truths so that we may focus on defending the more important foundational truths of the gospel to the saving of souls by our living testimony combined with the Word of God. This issue of pre trib, post trib will work it self out with time, we just need the patience to wait for it. Love and peace to all those who are eager for the fulfillment of His prophetic word concerning His appearing to us and our gathering to Him. Amen.
I agree with you that salvation issues are of ultimate importance. I would submit to you that in some cases, a proper understanding of future prophecy, particularly as it relates to the second coming, is a salvation issue. Why, because we are warned by Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, and others about the need to endure at that time. We are warned about the Antichrist. We are warned in Revelation that anyone who takes the mark of the Beast will drink of God’s wrath in full strength. Yet, if you believe in pretribulationism, those warnings, you are taught, are not for you. So in my mind, this is just as much a salvation issue as anything.
I disagree with your understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21. This goes back to being a problem with the manner in which Bible translators decided to divide scripture with chapter and verse numbers. This creates in some cases, a break in the continuity of the thought of the Author. Look at the passage without the verse and chapter break in context and you will see what Peter means.
So the point Peter is making with the italicized statement is that the Apostles interpretation of prophecy is rock-solid because they were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ place as the prophesied Messiah and Son of God and that because of their eyewitness testimony we should pay even more attention to the prophetic word. The caveat about “no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,” does not mean we can only understand prophecy in the past-tense. It is a warning that false teachers will introduce their own false interpretations of the prophetic word to draw disciples after themselves. This is what the context indicates.
The eminent English 19th Bible scholar Samuel Tregelles said the pre-trib theorists effectively consigned ALL the warnings to the Church in Matthew 24 to the “Jewish waste paper basket”.
Pre-tribulationism would have us believe that the Church will not be not be around when Antichrist is doing his worst,; so what was the point of the Lord’s warnings, if His people were NOT going to be around to heed them? Unbelieving Jews wouldn’t listen to them, or would they? I think we ALL know the answer to THAT question?
Daniel KNEW from the WRITTEN word what course of action to take, for it is written; “I understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:2.
Should not we all be like Daniel? and heed what is written? or do we don an attitude that “it really doesn’t matter, for it will all pan out well in the end if we believe in Jesus?” The question, then is “WHICH Jesus?” For the TRUE Jesus warned against “false Christ’s, and false prophets” Matthew 24:24.
Pre-tribulationism is a false teaching, that has NO exegetical support anywhere in Scripture, unless you want to read doctrines INTO its sacred pages, in which case we could believe almost anything!
Let us not forget that in John 6 Yeshua said He would raise up everyone who has ever believed on Him at the last day. He made that statement4 times. What Jesus said in John 6 eliminates the possibility of a 2 stage 2nd advent that leaves future members of His church behind.
In Matthew 13 we are told that wheat & tares grow together until the harvest. Wheat, His church, tares, those still abiding in sin. Jesus goes on top say that the harvest is the end of the age. What the Master said in Matthew 13 eliminates the possibility of Father’s dealing with natural Israel separately from any7 other group of sinners. Jesus’ words also eliminate any separation between naturals Israel & gentiles in the body of Messiah. See Ephesians 2:14 in that regard as well.
SamFox
I just want you all to know that I am a pan-a-linist when it comes to the argument on the pre, mid and post tribulation arguments. What that means is, that being born-again by the Spirit of God, it will pan out in the end, no matter which one of us is right. Those of us who hold the pre-tribulation view, will wait on the rest of you to get their, and welcome you with open arms. I know one thing that if you are not careful, all of you great theologians will start feeling animosity toward each other, and the devil wins. Sometimes it is better to say I agree to disagree, and yet have the love of Christ for each other remain intact. Proving yourself to think you are right, and arguing the point until someone is mad bears no fruit for the kingdom of God. If I were to ask Scott or the rest of you, how many people have you led to Christ this year, chances are it would be either none or very few. Let us concern ourselves to winning the lost to Christ, and then you can teach them what your view on the tribulation is. May God Bless All Of you!
Dear Jy,
Your comment is smug and condescending. You claim to take the moral high ground by calling yourself a “pan-a-linist” and then admit you’re really a pretribulationist. Saying you’ll forgive the rest of us who are supposedly wrong about the timing of rapture. Let me be clear, I do not consider myself a “great theologian” as you put it. To the contrary, I consider myself to be a simple Bible-believer and follower of Jesus, nothing more or less.
You say these disagreements lead to animosity among believers. In this we agree. This is what the Lord says:
Love apart from truth is not love and Christian unity is intended to be predicated on love and truth together. Read Jesus’ High Priestly prayer in John 17. This is not about me stoking my own pride in a vain attempt to prove that “I’m right.” I’m compelled by the love of God to proclaim His truth which includes His warnings about the last days. These warnings are not “just for the Jews” as so many pretrib teachers assert. These warnings are for His disciples.
Your final comment is foolish and presumptuous. Who are you to presume, not even knowing me, how often or to what effect I share my testimony of Jesus? Examine your own self.
I’m going when He calls whenever that will be and praying for strength to die for my beliefs if necessary.
Paul’s ministry ends with the mystery of the Rapture he received from Christ. What did Paul say if another Gospel was preached other than his?
Galatians 1:8, 9. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
He repeats this TWICE! Now read here which happens during Revelation (tribulation)
Revelation 14:6, 7. “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.”
This angel would have to be accursed! Paul gave us the Gospel found in I Cor 15:1-4. There can’t be two salvation plans at the same time. Paul’s ministry would have to end, which is why the Rapture must be before the Tribulation. The seventieth week is the last 7 years. Plus if you read I Cor 15 in context, it’s clearly showing you all the Jewish Feasts. The Rapture is likened to the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets not the trumpets of Revelation. The Day of Atonement would be Armageddon and Tabernacles would be Jesus sitting on His throne in Israel in which all nations left will be forced to follow (Zech 14).
There is a difference between Day of Christ (light) vs. Day of the Lord (darkness). The day not overtaking you as a thief. We are of the light. The Second Coming of the Lord is the day spoken of not to overtake you like a thief. You can’t have two salvation plans at the same time. Paul’s ministry revealed through MYSTERIES is where were at now in Grace. We are saved by Grace by faith, not of works. Nowhere does Paul teach us to endure to the end. Sure, I think we should all be ready to die for our faith, but in the Tribulation, it’s a matter of your soul being in Hell taking the Mark (which is a work).
Eric, this is another example of forcing an interpretation on a passage of scripture in order to get it to agree with your doctrine. This Angel is not preaching another gospel. It emphatically states that he is preaching the everlasting gospel. These are not two different gospels. There are not different gospels for different ages. There is only one gospel, it is called:
In all these references and more to the gospel (101 in total) there are only 2 places where a different gospel is mentioned. Every other instance is dealing with the one and only gospel.
When Paul is warning against a different Gospel in Galatians, he is referring specifically to the idea that it is necessary to observe the law of Moses in order to be saved. This was a distortion of the gospel that would allow people to earn salvation through their works as opposed to being accounted righteous through faith in Christ’s sacrifice. Some other examples of a different gospel presented by angels would be Mormonism and Islam.
Here is one of my greatest concerns about pretribulationism. If one takes the position that there are different gospels for different people groups or time periods then one has in effect a different gospel and therefore has the potential to fall under the same condemnation described by Paul in Galatians. The gospel is eternal. It starts in Genesis.
The gospel being preached by the angel in Rev 14:6 is the gospel, it is the everlasting gospel, not another gospel for another age or another group. That is heresy.
It pleases me to burst all of your “no rapture” theories by reminding you there are new conditions added to salvation during the tribulation.
NOWHERE in scripture is a Christian required to refuse the MARK and endure to the end of the tribulation in order to be saved. In addition, Jesus, speaking to his Jewish disciples in Matthew 24 gives instructions for Jews living during the tribulation just before he comes to earth, and those instructions cannot apply to the Church. It’s a message to tribulation converts and Jews, not to Church Age believers. Rightly dividing the word of truth respects the historical, grammatical method which leads to an understanding of the different dispensations in the Bible.
Lest anyone think the Mark is metaphorical for some invisible anti-Christ belief…that isn’t possible either, because this MARK in Revelation is one that allows people to buy and sell things. Without this MARK people will be forced to become scavengers and survive in the wild until Christ comes. Not taking the MARK will also cause many to be beheaded.
Darby is not the one responsible for starting the Rapture doctrine. Ephraim the Syrian taught it 383 AD in one of his books translated by Grant Jeffreys years ago…..and other writings by early church Fathers affirm it too. It is found in the Bible. It is not made up by man. It is the result of exegesis, not due to eisegesis as some claim.
Bottom line: there has to be a resurrection followed immediately by the rapture. This will be a visible event. No a secret one. It must be so, otherwise the gospel is a complete lie. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, it is a free gift, lest any man should boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9. The tribulation has a change in requirements for salvation that do not exist in the Gospel which is for the Church Age.
There is no way anyone can refute the above argument without denying their own salvation.
Don, I think you are too bound by your theology to think clearly.
To begin with and to be clear, I’m not saying there is no rapture, I’m saying it is not pretrib. To say I’m promoting no rapture is misrepresenting my position.
You’re also attacking a position that I have not taken by attributing to me a statement that there is a special condition for salvation that I never stated, that’s called a straw-man argument. By definition, a condition of salvation is a requirement that must be met. The requirement on our part for salvation is to repent and believe on Jesus. Having done that, we are going to believe the entirety of scripture, including all the warnings. One of the warnings is, “”If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Rev 14:9-12 That’s not a new condition, its a simple warning to all mankind given by an Angel.
Your contention that Matthew 24 is only for the Jews is a fallacious argument as well. If you applied that consistently throughout the gospels then one would have to conclude that at least 90% of Jesus’ teaching is only for Jews because He spoke to a Jewish audience most of the time. Incidentally, what we refer to as the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 is reiterated in Luke 21 and Mark 13. However, in Mark 13 Jesus makes it clear that He did not intend for His message regarding the end to be for the Jews only because He ended by saying, “What I say to you I say to all,” Mark 13:37. There is absolutely nothing in the text that would indicate that these prophecies were solely applicable to the Jews. You claim to use a historical-grammatical method of interpretation but what I’m seeing in your explanation is Eisegesis (reading into the text what it does not say).
Whether or not Darby originated pre-tribulationism or not is irrelevant. The fact is it emerged as a doctrine in the 1830s around the same time as the birth of Mormonism, Jehovahs’ Witnesses, and 7th Day Adventistism. Prior to that, you cannot find it in Christian writing. Yet it was the overwhelming consensus of the pre-Nicean fathers that they expected the Church to go through the tribulation. Also, the Ephraim quote is from Psuedo Ephraim which cannot be attributed to the Ephriam the Syrian since the only copies date from medieval times. And as a frequent guest and host on TBN Grant Jeffrey has no credibility as a faithful translator of anything. He frequently quotes the early Church fathers out of context to teach pre-tribulationism when the fathers were clearly post-trib. If pretrib is derived from exegesis as you say, provide just one verse that says the rapture happens before the tribulation, or one verse that separates the second coming into two events separated by seven years.
I agree, there must be a resurrection followed immediately by the rapture. Guess when that happens. “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.” Rev 20:4-5 So the resurrection which precedes the rapture includes tribulation martyrs. I agree it will be visible. I agree that salvation is by grace through faith, a free that cannot be earned. I disagree that there is a change in requirement for salvation during the tribulation. It will still be by grace through faith. But a theology that equates obedience with works-salvation is flat out wrong. The new testament is filled with warnings and commands for believers. We do well to heed them now and especially when the Church has to face the Antichrist. Failure to trust and obey will result in falling away.
There, I have refuted your arguments and I’m still saved by God’s grace.
Shalom Scott!
I agree with you 100%. Regarding the wrath of God in 1. Thess 5:9 (“orge” in Greek) we are saved from is the Sudden Destruction, which will hit the wicked by surprise, for the believers Jesus comes not as a thief in the night, they know the times and seasons, Paul told them and they will be raptured before God’s orge wrath. Yes Paul told the Thessalonian when the Rapture happens, not the day and hour, but the times and seasons (1.Thess 5:1). And Paul;s timing (2.Thess 2:1-3) is the same as Jesus taught in Mat 24:29-31, after the Great Tribulation. But back to the “orge” wrath of God, which is the final judgment of God, the condemnation to hell, which will hit the wicked at their death or at Christ 2. coming. The tribulation, even the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years) is not God’s orge wrath, but thumos wrath, where repentance is still possible to be saved, the dispensation of grace goes from Luke 16:16 till His 2. coming (Rev 14:6). The orge wrath of God comes at Christ 2. coming after the Great Tribulation (Rev 6:17 at the 7th seal; 11:18 at the 7th trumpet and 16:15 at the 7th vial). That means the seals, trumpets and vials are not in sequence, but are parallel in the Day of the Lord, His 2. coming, that does not mean they begin the same time. Everyone can see this in Rev 6:14 and 16:20. This 2 verses happen the same time, because they cannot happen twice and therefore the context are also parallel, all the earthquakes are one and the same (Rev 8:5;11:19;16:18).
God bless Benjamin
Scott Pruitt, Excellent response. I completely agree!
Don L, If you will look carefully, you will find that there are no Bible commentaries, Like Adam Clark’s Clark’s Commentaries, that teach or affirm a two stage 2nd advent of Yeshua Messiah. The rapture teaching came after Darby introduced Scoefield to the PTR teaching in about 1835. In spite of obscure references to people like Ephraim the Syrian, the two stage 2nd advent that leaves a future portion of the church behind was never a mainstream doctrine in the church until after Scoefield put the false teaching into his reference Bible. The lie grew from there.
SamFox
Revelation 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Hmmmm….HOW will Jesus KEEP us from the trial that EVERYONE else on earth will have to go through??? You really should believe in the PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE. Its theTruth.
Suzanne, a couple of observations. First, this promise to Philadelphian Church is dealing with a time of persecution and testing, not wrath. Second, if we are to interpret this passage as referring to a future Church in time, the Greek language makes it clear that Jesus is promising to help them persevere through the time of testing, not remove them from it. See my comments on this subject in https://nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted/
Furthermore….Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Gods Word states this…not mine….’unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.’
Suzanne, shalom!
You are right, we have to watch. Pretrib says He can come any time. i disagree, because Paul said, the times and seasons are known (1,Thess 5:1), how can that be, if Jesus can come any time? Jesus says, when you see all these things (Mat 24:33), than is the time to watch. But we have to be ready all the time, if alive or dead we have to be found in Him, And when we are in Him, He is the ark, that carries us through. Look at the 3 Jews in the hot oven or Daniel in the den of the lions.
GOD BLESS! Benjamin
Yup. We are not appointed to wrath. But…What was one of the words Paul used to encourage us that nothing can separate us from Father’s love, which I think is the same as saying nothing can separate us from Father Himself. The one of many words is tribulation.
Jesus tells us in John 6 that He will raise up ALL who have ever believed on Him at “the last day”. He says that a few times. That eliminates the notion of the ‘left behind’.
In Matthew 13 Yeshua says the wheat & tares will be allowed to grow together UNTIL the harvest. Further down in the chapter He says the harvest is the end of the age. Amplified Classic Edition says end & culmination of the age. He repeats the end of the age thought near the end of the chapter with the parable of the dragnet.
Paul told Timothy (6:14) to keep all His precepts unsullied and flawless, irreproachable, until the ‘appearing’ of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul said ‘appearing’, not return or coming. Regarding the 2nd advent of Jesus, the terms comes-coming, return-returns & appearing-appears are interchangeable. Paul also told Timothy that he, Paul, would be delivered safely to Father’s heavenly kingdom. Remember, Paul was martyred.
Here is a list of Bible verses that talk about tribulation. Re-read Hebrews 11 & look up Fox’s Book Of Martyrs.
https://mobile.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=tribulation&qs_version=AMP
If one wants to cling to the pre-trib rapture story, go ahead. However, I would STRONGLY urge every one who does that clinging, remember Yeshua said NO ONE knows the time of His 2nd advent. Shucks brothers & sisters, I don’t want to be tortured or such. But I know I have to be ready for that possibility. So do you. I say be ready to go all the way! I am sure the mark is here now. RFID chipping anyone? Me neither. We must each ask our self, am I ready to resist the beast & it’s mark? Is your relationship with the Lord of lords & King of kings strong enough to get you through anything? I work on that constantly!
I’d love to be PTR’d. BUT…what if it the PTR teaching is a set up for the beast system? What if it isn’t true? Are you ready to run the whole distance? To give your life if called upon? Do NOT be seduced into thinking, “I won’t be here, so it doesn’t matter.” Bet your life on Jesus. Not on a pre-trib rapture.
Listen to the song by Natalie Grant, More Than Anything. We need to get to where we want Jesus, well, more than anything or anyone else. Make Him your daily priority. Priority focus on Him. He will take care of all other things. Keep your heart & eyes on Him & He will take care of His 2nd Advent.
Blessings!
SamFox
Suzanne, How were the three in fiery furnace kept? Daniel in the lion’s den? Israel during the judgments on Egypt & their trip through the wilderness? David when running from Saul? Jesus when they came to throw Him off a cliff? Or Paul who spent a day & night in the deep ocean?
OR THOSE the pre trib teaching says will be saved during the ‘great revival’ PTR teaching says will happen ‘after the church is gone’? How will those so called ‘trib saints’ or any so called ‘left behind’ who get saved be kept?
You need a stronger relationship with Jesus. “He that endures to the end will be saved.” Can you endure if there is not a pre trib rapture? Would you be like those in Hebrews 11? Could you lay down your life & die for Jesus if put in that place?
I work to that end. I suggest ALL Christians do so ‘just in case’. No such thing as too much faith.
SamFox
Jesus said in Matthew 28
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them [b]into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you [c]all the days ([d]perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
Since Jesus WILL be with us to the end, we don’t even need a pre trib rapture. Nothing can separate us from Father or His love. Not even tribulation. Look it up.
SamFox
Awesome post and thread. Thank you
I agree with this website, I also agree with the view that Gods wrath is hell, one CANNOT define Gods wrath as the great tribulation, in the Bible everytime God was angry and did something about it people died right away by HIM! Also no-where in the bible is a 7 year great tribulation ever mentioned. That’s all one would have to dissprove to in this debate. So I challenege anyone to prove where the heck does the bible mention a SEVEN year great tribulation where the first 3 and a half years are of false peace. I know what verses people may use… So try me!
However I do see where the bible says that we will be caught up with him and the He and the saints would come back to rule, so because of that I would have to believe in the pre-wrath theory. But we must also remember that God is NOT governed my time, space, and matter, so we can be with God for 1000 years while earth only 1 day has passed by. So whoever thinks that the wedding of the lamb last 7 years is probably implying that since the jews celebrated wedding for 7 days equaling 7 years, one would be able to do that with the rest of the bible making chaos of everthing.
99% of the time hollywood maked a movie about a story on the bible, they PURPOSELY get it wrong including LEFT BEHIND with nicholas cage. Think about it.
There are two comings of christ. The rapture and the returned of christ. It is amazing that you got it all wrong. John darby was not the first to teach the rapture. Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray to be worthy to escape what is coming upon the earth.
Actually Dave that is not correct. Jesus did not teach that He would be coming back twice. The context of Luke 21:36 indicates that the thing(s) to be escaped are carousing, drunkenness, and caring for this life, He is not speaking of escaping the tribulation by being raptured. The text does not support that conclusion. I’ll grant you the argument that Darby was not the first to teach the rapture, it was Paul, who taught that in addition to resurrection, living believers would be transformed at Christ’s coming. But it was Darby that separated the rapture from the second coming by 7 years. That is something that Jesus and Paul did not do.
For a pretty good history of the PreTrib view and its origination. There is a video that came out not too long ago called “Left Behind, Or Led Astray.”
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com
Dave, with respect to a fellow Christian, you are mistaken. In John 6 JESUS Himself in His own words, made a 2 stage 2nd advent impossible. He also eliminates ‘the left behind’ when HE says, John 6:39, Amplified Bible, Classic Edition-copied from biblegateway.com just as found there-
“And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.” Note that Yeshua said that this is Father’s WILL. Then He says “any of ALL…” & that He will raise “them ALL up at the last day”. Jesus repeated this again in verses 40 & 44. Is the PTR the last day? No.
Our Master also said in Matthew 13:30 that wheat & tares (darnel in Amp. Classic) will grow together UNTILL the harvest. In V39 He says ” And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.” V40 “Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.” Is the PTR the close of the age? No, it is not.
Even the Blessed Hope verse in Titus says “…at His appearing…” not “at His coming”. That is because if you are not preprogramed, you will note, especially in the letters of 1&2 Thess., & 1& 2 Peter, that the terms for the 2nd advent, coming, returns & appears are all used interchangeably. This is because there will only be ONE 2nd advent that leaves no followers of The Way behind. Past, present or future.
Peter & Paul both say crowns are given at Messiah’s appearing, not coming. Jesus said, Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, and I shall bring My wages and rewards with Me, to repay and render to each one just what his own actions and his own work merit.” Peter, Paul &Yeshua are in harmony.
There is much more non eisegesis based proof, but time & space…
SamFox
I’m reading these arguments and all I can say is study the PreWrath view. I changed my view from pretrib to prewrath back in 1990 after reading Marvin Rosenthal’s book on prewrath, and then later Robert VanKampen’s book “The Sign” on the prewrath view. I think the church will be raptured just prior to the Trumpet and Bowl judgements (God’s Wrath).
Didn’t really correct your view toward the truth, as pre-trib ,mid-trib and pre-wrath hold to the same foundation that Yeshua raptures before Gods wrath is poured out because they all mis-interpret passages.
While the scriptures teach that it is within the events of His wrath and more specifically during the 6th vial that Yeshua commands us to look as he comes like a thief in the night at the Day of the Lord returning to deal with the antichrist, his false prophet and his army at the battle of armageddon. Then to pour out the last of the plagues on only those who took the mark of the beast upon themselves.
Saints who remain alive are preserved from Gods orge and thymos while they are on earth no different than in the days of Noah, God preserving lot from the destruction of Sodom but also the Hebrews during the plagues of Egypt while living in Egypt.
Those who remain during the events described in Matthew 24 and Revelation will be caught up together with those who were resurrected to meet their King in the sky before ushering Him to the earthly Jerusalem to sit on davids throne.
Those who remain mortal on earth during the 1,000 year reign and are saved will be sustained the full 1k reign until the gog and magog battle, only then will they be transformed to conform as those who were participants in the first resurrection to obtain quantitatively everlasting life being made immortal in the image and glory of Yeshua’s humanity.
Sense the 2nd general resurrection is unto everlasting contempt and death no saint during the 1k reign will die being that their is no more resurrections to occur for saints unto immortality.
P.S.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand the Rapture-Blessed Hope, if you are believing in a Satanically corrupted bible version
“The Day of Christ” is Not the same as the Day of the Lord.The Day of Christ is ONLY found in the KING JAMES BIBLE.
It has been CORRUPTED and changed in All modern bibles.
It becomes CONFUSED from the distinction of the Day of the Lord(the Wrath of God).
God is Not the author of confusion-the Devil is.
Hence All his CHANGED bible “versions”.
God Does Not Change, nor HIS WORD.
The Day of Christ,read in context in all occurrences(3 times in new testament-Only to Paul) in the King James bible, it Explains when and what the rapture is.
Be blessed in Jesus mighty name.
If it is impossible to understand the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture without relying on the King James Bible, then it is to be even more rejected. Alternative translations often provide insight into the original meaning of a text that was first written in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. To reject all but the KJV demonstrates profound willful ignorance. It is because of people like you that I have started this blog. Hopefully yourself or other readers will come their senses and escape from the lies of Satan and the deceitfulness of their own hearts. 2 Tim 2:22-26.
Saint in Light…
You state, that the day of the Lord is not the same as the Day of Christ. WHY? Is it because you say so? Or is it just because you want it to be? The fact of the matter is that you are basing your belief upon an assumption, not facts. No where is Scripture is the event separated and defined differently.
Fact… Jesus states that he is coming,”as a thief…” Rev. 16:15 and 2 Peter 3:10. Both of these references the Pre-trib doctrine believes to be the ‘second coming’ and not the rapture. However, if Jesus were to come via rapture 7 years earlier, the “goodman” of the house would know at what hour the thief would come… Matt 24:41,42. Thus, the pre-trib doctrine makes Jesus into a liar, for He declared the nature in which He would come, “as a thief…” For the pre-trib doctrine to be correct, Jesus would have to have stated something more like, “a politician in the daylight…” rather than a “thief in the night.” Jesus is not the liar… the separation between the rapture and the second coming is the lie. (Note the KJV verbiage)
The Blessed Hope is the grace of God in action.
If you deny being totally saved ONLY by Grace through Faith in Jesus,
then you Cannot understand the grace of God through the Blessed Hope.
If you are saved through grace Plus works, you cannot understand the Blessed Hope.
If you “hope to persevere til the end”, you cannot understand,
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (the day of the lord is the wrath of God pored out on the entire world)
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
If you do not understand the difference between, The Day of Christ and The day of the Lord, you are reading corrupted satanic bible versions and Cannot understand the Blessed Hope.
Lordship Salvation-ism and prideful works, Cannot understand,
The simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and the Blessed Hope.
You CANNOT receive and understand, ” For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
If you are “saved” by grace plus works,
You will get your wish from God to prove how “worthy” you are, through the tribulation and the wrath of God.
I totally disagree with your premise. Nowhere in my writings have I said that salvation is dependent upon works. Quite the contrary, without the grace and power of God, Christians would not be able to withstand the tribulation. Instead what I am saying is that it is God who will glorify Himself through His Saints during the tribulation. Revelation 12:11, Hebrews 11:32-40.
Today the understanding of what grace is is obscured. Jude tells us this will happen… the grace of our Lord is changed to lasciviousness.
We are not saved by works, but we are not saved apart from them either. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the empowerment to actually have faith. Without grace we cannot believe, and instead we may become scoffers. Believing and receiving is a action verb… a work. We cannot be enabled to do the work without receiving grace to from heaven to accomplish it.
James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead.
Biblical grace is not the same grace that we think of concerning a “grace period” that fits more of the biblical understanding of mercy. Grace is not God turning a blind eye to sin. Grace is the empowerment to overcome sin. Where grace is present, sin is absent… not overlooked. To be saved is to be saved from and issue… that means the issue no longer exists. It does not mean that we are still in the mire of that sinful issue. Being saved is being restored. The power of grace to enable us to overcome is the true definition of grace. Otherwise we have become the evil people that Jude has spoken about concerning grace, and made the concept of grace a license to sin.
Agree.
Hi Scott,
Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Paul?The mystery’s of Christ, Only given to Paul for the body of Christ?Especially for these last days?
Romans 16:25
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the rapture, the Blessed Hope, the Day of Christ, a mystery to the world until God revealed it to Paul.
Ephesians 3:1 – 3:4
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:7 – 3:10
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
There are Many more verses….
What pert of these doctrines of Truth are hard to understand?
These doctrines are For Us-Now.They supersede All other OLDER doctrines.
Most Christians in these end of days, Totally disregard and ignore the Truth of the Word given to us through PAUL.
You are in essence, denying what God Clearly says,and choosing to believe another Gospel created by the Adversary.
“Enduring, persevering and “tribulating” til the end”..
God is separating those who Truly believe His Word (through the Holy Spirit of Truth) from those who don’t.Those who Choose to believe in men, doctrines of demons and themselves-deny the Word of God-Jesus, by rejecting what Paul says.
Be blessed in Jesus mighty name-amen.
Sounds like you are promoting an un-biblical view know as Hyperdispensationalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism. Not only does this form of theology affirm the the false idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, it also denies anything other than Paul’s epistles as being authoritative for the Church, dividing the New Testament in parts applicable for Jews and part for Christians. Paul himself refutes this idea. 2Tim 3:16-17.
“There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
The mystery, the Church will be completed at the Seventh Trumpet, when the kingdom of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord, when the dead are judged, and the saints receive their rewards.
In other words the Seventieth Week is part of the Church Age. You refused to believe the Scriptures. Not all Israel is Israel, but only those of the faith of Abraham. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, but we are one in Christ, one new man, one Olive Tree made up of believing Israel and grafted in Gentiles. We are one people.
Ruth, who is a type of the Bride of Christ tells Naomi, a type of Israel, “Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.” And Obed, the son of Ruth and Boaz, because of the Law of the Kinsman reeemeer, becomes a son of Naomi. The Seventieth Week is for ALL Israel, both Jew and grafted in Gentile. In other words, the Church. Dispensationalism is a false doctrine.
Saint, these verses I copied from your post, “51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not “all” sleep, but we shall “all” be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the “last” trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and “we” shall be changed. [emphasis added via ” ” ]
show that by the way you used them in the context of a PTR they are out of sync with what Jesus Himself said in John 6:39, 40 & 44. He said everyone WHO HAS EVER BELIEVED on Him would be raised at the LAST DAY. Paul said the same thing using different terms. Paul said “at the last trump” that ” We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”. Note Paul said “all”, just like Jesus. You miss a very important element in the scriptural foundation regarding the 2nd advent . Jesus’ words makes it clear that His own, from then till now, are ALL raised together to Him & changed per what Paul said about the last trump which is at the last day, the end of the age. End of the age is in Matthew 13 where Jesus said “end of the age’ in two different parables. He also said “the last day” in John 6.
Please note that end of the age, last day & last trump all point to a single niche in what we call time. They all encompass the same event.
Thanks.
SamFox
Saint In Light, here is the blessed hope verse:
Titus 2:13
Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
Why does the verse say “glorious appearing” instead of “glorious return’?
Colossians 3:4
When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory. Note: “THEN you also will appear with Him”.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.
2 Timothy 4:8
[As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return). ” all those ” agrees with what Jesus said in John 6:39 about ‘all who have ever believed’.
Hebrews 9:28
Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.
Note the phrase “to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.” “Those” refers to what Jesus said in John 6:39 & other verses in that chapter that He would raise up all who have ever believed on Him “at the last day”. Paul agrees. We shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed at the sound of the LAST trump.
All verses copied & pasted from BibleGateWay.com I added or deleted nothing. I used the Amplified Bible, Classic Edition.
Thanks.
SamFox
There is a lot of confusion on what God’s wrath is. In Revelation 14:9-11 we are clearly told what the wrath of God is:
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
God’s wrath is Hell. It is eternal not temporal. The wrath of God is where a person is assigned to at the time of death. The judgments that brings about death is the harvest at the end of the age Rev. 14:15. 1 Thess. 5: 9+ addresses this as well. We are not assigned to wrath but to SALVATION. Read the follow-up verses..,”to forever live with Him.” It’s not talking about the temporal. Heaven is our assignment. Precious in the sight of Him is the death of His saints. Death is not associated with wrath other than the assignment afterward… heaven, or hell? God pours out His judgments whether trumpet or bowl, and that harvest at the end of the age, brings about the eternal result. Look back on the trumpets. Prior to them man declares that God’s wrath has come. Man has a temporal view. The Word doesn’t declare God’s wrath until the last trumpet where the unjust is judged (i.e. sentenced to Hell). That where the wrath of God occurs. Here in Rev. 14:9-11 it tells us what God’s wrath is, it’s the fire and brimstone that gives no rest day or night forever and ever. The words in the Greek that are translated into English for wrath are different concerning 1 Thess. 5:9 (or-gay) and the bowl judgements in Rev. 16 (thnmos). Commonly translated anger.
Consider for a moment, a Christian dying a long agonizing death of cancer, then consider one of God’s judgments of His indignation being poured out and the wicked is given an almost instantaneous death of a tsunami, or a bullet to the head. The unbeliever thinks that is the end of it, and they might even consider that a sweet way to go. The temporal removal of the spirit is not God’s wrath. Hell is! Key word to remember here is assigned, or appointed. It’s the end result, not the means of getting there
Revelation 15:1 KJV
[1] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:1 NIV
[1] I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.
Shalom!
To understand the wrath of God we have to consider the Greek, there is the “orge “wrath (G3709) and a different “thumos”wrath (G2372).The orge wrath we find in Rev 14:10 where the thumos wrath is poured out in the cup of His indignation (orge), which is the final wrath of God upon the lost, the torment of hell. The thymos wrath leads to the final judgment, when no repentance happens. Even the vials are not final, repentance is still possible, it says “and they repented not.” But at the 7th vial the “orge wrath is coming with the 2. coming of Christ, which is suddenly and final, no repentance is possible, they will not escape. This is how we have to understand Rev 15:1.
We have to understand that we are delivered from the final orge wrath in 1.Thess 5:9; 1.Thess1:10; Rom 5:9 and Eph :5:6 and this orge wrath is found in revelation only after the Tribulation at His 2. coming and therefore it is post-trib!( Rev 6:16+17; 11:18; 16:19 and 19:15i. When Pretrib is using the english version of the wrath of God, which includes the thumos wrath as their main proof to conclude that the Rapture has to come before the Tribulation without a clear scripture otherwise, so is this behavior very questionable at the least.