The 2016 Pikes Peak Prophecy Conference hosted what was called The Great Rapture Debate between Pastor Joe Schimmel of Blessed Hope Chapel and GoodFight Ministries taking the Post-tribulational position and noted author and teacher Dr. Doug Stauffer taking the Pre-tribulational position. This is the first of seven videos covering the topics of the rapture in Church history, the rapture in the gospels, the rapture in the epistles, the rapture in Daniel & Revelation, and Q&A. This is one of the best debates on this subject ever held. Why? Because pre-tribulational teachers, by and large, are unwilling to debate. Hopefully this will be the first of many more as the day approaches. Special thanks to Prophecy in the News for hosting the debate, to Doug Stauffer for having the courage to debate, and to Joe Schimmel for his excellent defense of the Biblical-historical truth of post-tribulationism.
Related Resources:
Left Behind or Led Astray?
https://www.goodfight.org/product/left-behind-or-led-astray/
Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulation?
https://www.goodfight.org/product/pre-mid-or-post-tribulation/
The Great Snatching Away
https://www.goodfight.org/product/the-great-snatching-away/
wisdom-of-fear (.blogspot.com)
Thank you for your efforts. The more, the better.
The Greek word megas (great) only accompanies the word thlipsis (tribulation) as an adjective to the thlipsis three times in the New Testament. Two of these are found in the Revelation, and both are unambiguously talking about a (great) tribulation to be experienced by the saints.
Those who apply great tribulation to something which is the experience of the unbelieving world, are conflating God’s wrath with the tribulation of the saints at the hands of political authorities and persecuting unbelievers; and they seem to (conveniently?) never comment on Mat.24:9-14, which clearly states that the saints will become hated of all nations for Jesus’ name’s sake, and delivered up to tribulation (Greek: thlipsis), and killed.
The seed sown on stony ground has no root, and as soon as thlipsis (tribulation) occurs on account of the word, they immediately skandalizo (become offended and fall away – Mat.13:21) – the same Greek words are used in Mat.24:9-10: “Then they will deliver you up to thlipsis (tribulation) and kill you, and you will be hated of all nations for My name’s sake”. Then many will skandalizo (be offended and fall away) and betray one another and hate one another”.
The gospel must obviously be preached in all nations (Mat.24:15) before Christians can be hated of all nations.
Compare the statement that the man of sin will not appear until the falling away comes first (2 Thessalonians 2), and compare the lawlessness mentioned in Mat.24: 12 (from the Greek word anomia: lawlessness) which accompanies this falling away as a result of the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9, with the lawless one (son of perdition), and the false prophets with the power and signs and lying wonders of this “son of perdition”.
I’ve listed all the New testament verses talking about the persecution and tribulation of the saints. It’s quite obvious that the first of the only three mentions of “megas thlipsis” (great tribulation) in the New Testament (in Mat.24:21-22) is also talking about something experienced by the saints at the hand of the unbelieving world. It’s not talking about God’s wrath.
The understanding of “great tribulation” as something happening to the unbelieving world as a result of God’s wrath has so permeated the minds of most Christians, that by now far too many (possibly most) Christians have to be de-brainwashed. Satan knows that nothing can make it easier for him to cause Christians to fall away than if they are not informed and prepared for great tribulation.
The “elect” are not the Jews that are gathered to their homeland in the Millennium, Dr Staufer errs, because they are brought by Gentiles in earthly vessels (Isa 66:20; 60:9; 14:2 and49:22). Mat 24: 29-31 is the Rapture. But Pre-trib is right, the Greek word erchomai, which stands for His coming in the clouds has the meaning of coming and going Mk 6:31. Jesus takes them to Heaven for the Wedding etc and comes back with them to earth as army (Rev19:14). This happens on the DoTL, they come back in minutes, because they are out of time and space. To have a Wedding in Heaven for 7 years is absolute nonsense, Heavenly different. The DoTL is a 24 hour day with morning and evening (night) (Zech14:7).
Benjamin, erchomai does not mean coming and going, it means coming or going depending on the context but not both. In the case of Mark 6:31, erchomai is followed by the word hupago which means to depart. So the scripture does not say that Jesus comes and then goes. Instead, it says we rise up to meet Him.
Shalom Scott!
I know, what you are saying. But the meaning of erchomai is not a coming and staying in that sense either. So when Jesus comes for His elect in the air the Greek word erchomai is always used. I think Pre-trib is right, the Wedding and the reward are in Heaven and than they coma back to earth (Rev 19:14 and Jude 14) as an army for judgement.
Hello Benjamin, If you see what I’m saying, then why do you continue to cling to pretribulationism at the expense of language? I stated previously that erchomai can mean either be coming or going depending on the context but not both at the same time. Do you disagree with that statement? If so, present your evidence. There are 665 occurrences of the word erchomai in the New Testament. Can you show me any examples of where there is an obvious use of the word for coming and going at the same time either explicitly or implicitly? Understand that saying something to the effect of, “pretribulationism proves it,” is a circular argument.
Rather than trying to establish pretribulationism from scripture, you should just look at what the scripture simply and plainly states. If you do, you cannot come away with pretribulationism.
Shalom Scott!
I am almost 40 years Post-trib, you misunderstood me. I agree “erchomai is coming or going. In the case of the Rapture He is coming in the clouds. that is not an advent or arrival as parousia and He goes back to heaven, were the Rapture takes place. Everything is prepared, the Groom takes His bride. After the Rapture the multitude is seen in Heaven Rev 7:14+15. 2. Cor 4:14 goes in that direction. At least two bibles say; that they are presented to God. Jesus said that He comes and takes His bride to the mansions in heaven (Jn 14:2+3). After that they come as an army back to earth (Rev 19:14+15 and Jude 14)
Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mar_14:24 And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb_8:13 In that He says, “A NEW COVENANT,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV
Re Session 2 of the same debate, here’s what I ran into earlier this evening:
Re Margaret MacDonald, here’s what Dr. F. Nigel Lee stated: “Dave MacPherson, in his various books, has made a major contribution toward vindicating Historic Christian Eschatology. The 1830 innovations of the disturbed Margaret Macdonald documented by MacPherson—-in part or in whole—-immediately spread to Edward Irving and his followers, then to J. N. Darby and Plymouth Brethrenism, and were later popularized by the dispensationalistic Scofield Reference Bible, by Classic Pentecostalism, and by latter-day pretribulationists like J. F. Walvoord and Hal Lindsey.” (Dr. Lee stated this as the holder of nine EARNED doctorates [!] and as Australia’s most eminent evangelical scholar!) Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Main Point” and “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart” to find out what Dr. Stauffer censored. Stauffer’s “research” failed to notice that even Hal Lindsey calls Margaret a partial rapturist in his book “The Rapture.” And Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” refers to partial rapturists as “pretribulationists” (p. 105) – pretribs who, in their “rapture charts” see “church” BEFORE the rapture as well as seeing “church” AFTER the rapture; they are “church splitters”! It’s amazing how many pretrib defenders have seized on Margaret’s statement “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist” and then gotten into a tizzy in public while ranting and screaming that “Margaret was a posttrib” or, even worse, that she was demon-possessed or in a trance or that “MacPherson has covered up many before 1830 who clearly taught pretrib”!!! Google “Scholars Weigh My Research” to find out other evangelical leaders who have endorsed MacPherson’s research since 1970. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth,” “C. I. Scofield’s Hidden Side,” “Famous Rapture Watchers” and “Dr. Watson’s Pretrib Non-Discovery” – just some of the hot articles on the British blog “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing” hosted by noted teacher Treena Gisborn. BTW, this past July 5th, pretribber Dr. Erwin Lutzer told a packed Moody Church that there are now posttribs as well as pretribs among the MBI personnel, adding “Here at the Moody Church we have decided to not draw a line in the sand about these two views.” (!) But MBI is only reflecting the many worldwide who are now abandoning pretrib for other rapture views – and scary world events are helping to bring about the collapse of the 188-year-old pretrib fantasy!
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31, and Matthew 26:28. The Church as a whole has never been a “Gentile Church”, as Dispensationalists often imply. Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. James addressed his letter to “the twelve tribes” who were his “brethren”, and the “faith”.
The New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20. Therefore, it cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
The whole time that my wife and I were in a Dispensational church body we never heard a Sunday School lesson or a sermon on the New Covenant. I now know why. Many Dispensationalists either ignore the New Covenant or deny that it is now in effect, because they fully understand what the New Covenant does to their doctrine.
The charge of “Replacement Theology” often comes from those who have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds on Galatians 3:16, They have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8. They have replaced the word “so”, which is an adverb of manner, with the word “then”, which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26, They have replaced the blindness of “part” of the Israelites, with a “partial blindness” of all of the Israelites. They have replaced the New Covenant fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary, with a covenant with the modern State of Israel in Romans 11:27. They have replaced the “son” who is the “heir” to the land, with those who reject Him as the “chief cornerstone” in Matthew chapter 21.
In Romans 11 Paul uses the Olive Tree made up of both believing Israelite branches and believing Gentile branches as a symbol of the New Covenant Church. Paul said the branches broken off of the tree can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. Paul provided no path to salvation outside of the Church in the passage.
Based on Luke 21:24-28, the “times of the Gentiles” becomes full at the Second Coming of Christ.
When David killed Goliath the stone hit the giant in the one vulnerable place, not protected by the giant’s armor.
The New Covenant is the stone that kills the pretrib removal of the Church.
The New Covenant is also one of the most important tools in taking the Gospel to modern Jews.
The “suffering servant” of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
Why have I never seen this simple three-part message presented on Christian television?
Any doctrine which claims Christ did not fulfill the Old Testament promises is a form of Dual Covenant Theology.
This modern doctrine is one of the greatest errors in the history of the Church.
Pastor Joe could have killed the pretrib doctrine much more quickly by presenting the New Covenant scriptures.
Joe, I don’t believe there is any “silver bullet” as it were; to think that there is a formula which will melt those hardened pre-trib hearts, is at best, wishful thinking! I had hitherto never heard of Dr. Doug Stauffer, but one thing I DO know, he is no uneducated fool, but nevertheless he IS deceived.
Jay Edwards mentions Dave MacPherson, and I agree there, is much to commend his work, in his own words Dave never claimed to be a theologian, unlike his erudite late father Norman, nevertheless, let us not think for one moment that he doesn’t understand the fact that pre-tribulationism is NOT taught anywhere in God’s Book. Clearly, with a father such as his, it is not too difficult to see where Dave got his inspiration from, to embark on his detective work-he has proven himself to be a “pain in the backside” of the pre-trib establishment! Now, I haven’t read one book of Dave’s, because I came to the conclusion that pre-tribulationism is not taught anywhere in God’s Book from my own personal study of His written word, and with no little help from men such as B.W. Newton, S.P. Tregelles, A.W. Pink etc, before I had even heard of Dave MacPherson, so WHY would I want to read his work, commendable though I believe it to be?
Regarding those who teach false pre-trib doctrine, I quote Macpherson snr from his excellent book TELL IT LIKE IT WILL BE:
On page 29, he writes:
“The pre-tribulationist believes in three resurrections: the “first” resurrection of Rev. 20.5, the second that follows the millennium, and a “first” some seven years prior to the “first” mentioned in Rev. 20. This takes place before the great tribulation at the Coming of Christ to take away the Church. Although in no place in the New Testament does it state there will be a coming and resurrection prior to the tribulation, their belief that the Church will not be in the tribulation necessitates this assumption. They cannot think of the “first resurrection of Rev. 20.5 being actually the first because there it states that martyrs under the Antichrist, who is the chief figure in the tribulation, share in the “first resurrection” which would make it necessary for them to believe in the Church passing through the tribulation. My personal conviction is that to assume a first resurrection takes place before the “first resurrection” explicitly referred to in Scripture is a case of adding to Scripture which, according to Rev.22.18, carries with it a very severe penalty, if deliberate.”
Dr. MacPherson adds the caveat “if deliberate”, and I can well understand this, but, when I read God’s written word the admonishment is”Let NO man deceive you” Eph. 5.6, 2 Thess. 2.3, 1 Cor.3.18 and umpteen other verses beside! Whether willingly or or blindly deceived, is not the final result the same- do not the deceiver and deceived “both fall into the ditch” Matt. 15.14,Luke 6.39?
Lets not forget that there awaits a greater condemnation for those who would be teachers, James 3.1.
Mr Edwards mentions the “noted teacher Treena Gisborn”, he would do well to enquire whether or not Macpherson snr, or indeed jnr, suffer from the “spirit of Calvinism”!
In my humble opinion, the Two Peoples of God doctrine is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church. In John 10:16 Christ revealed that there is only one fold.
There is a direct link between that doctrine and the pretrib removal of the Church.
Those who taught the older Classic form of Dispensational Theology promoted the idea that the “Church Age” would have to come to an end before God can go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system. Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, the Church Age cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.
It may not be the “silver bullet”.
However, Dispensationalists who understand the implications of the New Covenant, must either ignore the New Covenant or deny that it is now in effect.
Therefore, an understanding of the New Covenant is the closest thing that we have to a “silver bullet”.