Before approaching this subject I believe it would be helpful to quote the Lord Jesus in the entirety of the passage to get the proper understanding of what Jesus was conveying to His Disciples. It is also important to understand how the disciples understood it.
When Jesus gave this teaching, it was immediately following the beginnings of his itinerant teaching along with miraculous wonders. It was also following the time that Jesus’ disciples had returned from preaching that ,”The Kingdom of God is at hand.” The disciples’ ministry was accompanied by many of the same miraculous signs that Jesus performed Himself. Their expectation was that Jesus the Son of David would rule the world as King from Jerusalem in the very near future. Ideas like church age, tribulation saints, and all of the other particularly pre-tribulation rapture ideas were completely foreign to them.
In fairness though they also did not understand Christ’s redemptive purpose either. But let’s approach Jesus’ teaching on this parable with the same understanding they had.
Matt 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Matt 13:36-43
Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
It does not require much commentary to see that the harvest occurs at the end of the age. Notice that the wheat (Sons of the Kingdom) are allowed to continue growing all the way to the end.
When I sat down to start writing this I originally planned on writing a long dissertation, but it occurs to me that it is not necessary. The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is obviously false. There is not a single verse of scripture that teaches it, and it is absent in church teaching throughout history. The burden of proof is on those who teach it, not those reject it. So here is my challenge: Present your evidence.
Thank you Scott.
In studying 1 Thes 4: , we really need to read 2 Thes 2: where Paul gives a (first and then) timeline to clarify that the antichrist has to come first. Also Psalm 91 makes alot more sense with the wicked falling at our sides and those protected in the secret place under the shelter of the Most High, spectating the rewards of the wicked.
Also here’s a timeline thought:
Has anyone ever considered that the seals,trumpets and vials have connections to each other? Meaning 1st seal then 1st trumpet then 1st vial and so on. I’m intrested in your thoughts. I’ve written a grid with 3 coloms, Seals 1-7 on the left, then Trumpets, then Vials. When your read them across instead of down it’s very intresting. 111,222,333,444,555,666,777. Noticing the 6’s coming before the 7’s
Jesus said let no decieve you and if that time wasn’t shortend even the elect would be decieved.
Here is another interesting posssible connection: 5 months the Noah Ark was lifted on the water, and the great tribulation being limited to 5 months in Rev 9:5,10. As in the days of Noah?
Scott:
In the parable of the ten virgins (innocent because they are in Christ) we see an end time division taking place in the body of Christ (the division is already present in the institutional church). This division takes
place after the ENTIRE body of Christ becomes supernaturally aware that the return of Christ is IMMINENT but not IMMEDIATE. 10 is the number of TESTING, and I believe that this specific time of testing
covers the 4th, 5th, and 6th seal events of Revelation. During the testing the “foolish” virgins fall away from faith in Christ (the final generation of “TARES”) while the “wise” persevere and overcome the testing of their faith
to become the ultimate form of the “WHEAT.” (Rev 7;2-8) Compare that with the details given to us in Matthew 24, and we have a fairly comprehensive idea concerning what will happen before the coming of the Lord.
We also have a CALENDAR for all of the 7 primary events of REDEMPTION. This calendar does not demonstrate ANY possibility for a pre-tribulation “rapture.” The ONLY resurrection demonstrated in THE calendar
of redemption given to us by GOD takes place on 1 TISHRI, identified as “TRUMPETS” and as “the last day.” The following event takes place 9 days later on 10 TISHRI, identified as “ATONEMENT” and as the great and terrible “day of the Lord” when He returns with all His saints to destroy His enemies and establish His millennial kingdom, beginning on 15 TISHRI, identified as TABERNACLES, and ultimately fulfilled 1000 years later
on that same day as we tabernacle with Him in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth.
Thank you for your presentations of the truth as they are compared with ANGRY lies and deceptions.
Scott,
You have no idea what this parable is about do you? Ha! The whole point of the “wheat and tares” parable is that you can’t tell the “wheat” apart from the “tares.” This has nothing to do with the church – we are “peculiar people, set apart, different from the world.” The church is not wheat, we are the barley harvest (see Ruth, who is at the feet of Boaz, the kinsmen redeemer during the barley harvest). We have but little chaff and have to be winnowed. Wheat has a hard outer shell that must be broken by way of a board called a “tribulum”. The wheat and tares parable addresses those who go into the tribulation and who will become believers, they will have to go the the period of trial and testing (Rev. 3:10) to be “separated” from among the tares.
Read Hosea 12:10, then study the prophetic patterns in Elijah’s translation.
Here a table that makes it easy: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgqfU6QVpvLQiyqaV8WFBV9E6DFf
Pre-trib is absolutely biblical.
Have fun wasting your time fighting it!
Jamison,
With all due respect, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You are reading into the text something that is not there and you’re employing a word concept fallacy. The example here is that you have equated barley as a spiritual meaning for the Church. First of all that is something that is not literal and cannot be proven exegetically. But you take the absurdity even farther by saying in effect:
The Church is represented as barley
Barley is not wheat
Therefore wheat cannot represent the Church.
That kind of reasoning is invalid.
It is that same kind of invalid reasoning that led to the pretrib rapture hysteria of the 1980’s.
It was said by many pretrib teachers, “The fig tree is Israel.” Referring to the parable of the fig tree in Matt 24:32. It was then deduced that the budding was Israel’s rebirth in 1948, and that the word generation in vs 34 meant 40 years. This led to to many pretrib teachers predicting the rapture to occur in 1988. This idea was spread widely through Christian radio and television and many books on the subject were published about it, including “88 Reasons Why The Rapture Will Happen In 1988.” Instead of appealing to these word concept fallacies, how about just looking at the context? In Matt 24, the fig tree is not Israel, it is the sum of the things that Jesus said would happen progressively toward the end of the age and His second coming. Those things from the context are: false Christs & spiritual deception [vss 4-5], increasing wars, famines & earthquakes [vss 6-7], intense persecution [vs 9], apostasy from the faith and hatred [vs 10], rise of false prophets with large followings [vs 11], love growing cold [vs 12], worldwide dissemination of the gospel [vs 14], the abomination of desolation [vs 15], false signs and wonders at the hand of false prophets [vs 24], sun and moon darkened. According to Jesus in vs 32, all those aforementioned things are the fig tree. I will say this though, I do believe that the rebirth of Israel is a great sign of the end times generally speaking, particularly since it was prophesied happen. Physical Israel does have a future and I reject replacement theology, however dispensationalists make far too many false distinctions between the two.
As to whether or not I understand the parable of the wheat and tares, it is explained by Jesus Himself in Matt 13:36-43. There is absolutely nothing in His explanation that excludes the Church or Christians.
There is support for a pre-trib rapture found all throughout Scripture. Even still, just by a matter of eliminating other views, pre-trib remains. There is no rapture after Jesus returns (with the Saints). There is a final resurrection on the “last day” of those who were beheaded; and there is the separation of the sheep and goats. There is no rapture or translation that takes place. There is not one Scripture that shows a post-trib resurrection of the dead in Christ from the past 2,000 years.
The raptured church is in heaven in Rev. 5 and comes back with Christ in Rev. 19. The church (33 AD to Rapture) cannot be found in any context within chapters 6-19. It is the time of God’s wrath as found in Rev. 6:16,17; 11:18; 12:12; 14:8,10,19; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; 18:3; 19:15 (Gr. ‘orge’, ‘thymos’).
According to Scripture:
1) The 144,000 that are sealed are Israelites. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. They are seen again in heaven in Rev. 14. Simple enough, next.
2) The multitude seen in Rev. 7 before the 7th Seal (and subsequent Trumpets/Bowls, etc.) is even opened are “they which came out of great tribulation” (the tribulation caused by Seals 1-6) and have experienced hunger, thirst, and the heat of the sun. They are wearing long white robes (Gr. ‘stole’) such as those given to the martyrs in Seal 5 (‘stole’ – do a word study my friend). To assume this group includes the church as a whole, the dead in Christ from the past 2,000 years, is eisegeis and adding details to the text that are just not there. Not all believers – by any stretch of the imagination – have gone through great tribulation, hungered, thirsted, or experienced great heat. The text in this passage does not speak of a general resurrection of the “dead in Christ” at all. Next.
3) The 2 Witnesses of Rev. 11 who are killed and raptured are two literal prophets that prophesy the first 3.5 years of the 70th Week. Next.
4) The multitude on the sea of glass in Rev. 15 are “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.” These are those who were “harvested” from the earth in Rev. 14. They were taken alive (i.e. John does not ever mention them as being the ‘souls’ of the dead as in Rev. 6:9; 20:4). They did not take the mark of the beast, neither did they worship him, and they were not killed/beheaded either (see Rev. 20:4), but got “victory” over the beast. Again, this does not apply to the church, the dead in Christ since 33 AD, but only those of the last 3.5 years of the 70th Week. That is why we read about this in Rev. 15. Next.
5) The “dead in Christ” rise first, right? So, according to post-trib, the rapture could not possibly take place until after the resurrection of Rev. 20:4. But where is the church mentioned here (CONTEXT)? This resurrection specifically concerns those who were beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast as is plainly stated. Not all of the “dead in Christ” from the last 2,000 years were beheaded. To believe this proves a post-trib rapture is clearly eisegesis and “adding” things into the text that simply is not there. Further, if Rev. 20:4 is the resurrection/rapture, then who are the armies of heaven clothed in fine linen, clean and white. Scripture tells us who – the bride of Christ, the saints who were previously resurrected/raptured and are returning with Christ as written in Zech. 14:5; Jude 14; 1 Thess. 3:13; Rev. 19:14.
No where in Scripture can mid, post, pre-wrath rapture views identify the church in the book of Revelation outside of chapters 5 and 19. The context of what is shared above NEVER applies to the dead in Christ from 33 AD to the pretribulation rapture as typified in Rev. 4:1-2.
When you take the “text” away from its “context” – what you are left with is a big ‘ole CON!
Jamison,
Pre-tribulationists claim that the Church is not mentioned from the 4th to the 19th chapter of Revelation and therefore claim it is correct to conclude that the reason is that the rapture has already occurred by the end of the 3rd chapter. This is incorrect for two reasons:
1. The first is a logical fallacy called an argument from silence: “to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than on presence.” An argument from silence proves nothing.
2. The Church is in fact mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. There is more than one word used to signify the Church and or Christians. One is ekklesia which is most often translated as Church or Churches, and the other is hagios which is translated as Saints. The word hagios appears 229 times in the New Testament. In every instance it is used in reference to the Church or Christians, except as we are told by pre-tribulationists in the book of Revelation where the word appears 13 times. Twelve of those occurrances appear in within chapters 4-19 and several of those place the “Saints” in the tribulation. The Church is also clearly identified as being in the tribulation in Rev 12:17.
I did a more comprehensive article regarding showing how fallacious an argument it is to claim that the 24 elders in Rev 5 represent the raptured Church.
http://nopretrib.com/who-are-the-24-elders-in-revelation-56-10/
If anyone is ignoring context, it is people like you that cling to a false doctrine that cannot be demonstrated, let alone proved from scripture.
Scott – can you provide just one verse that portrays a post-tribulation rapture in Revelation? I would love to see what I have been missing.
The church (as we understand it today) is, in fact, not found in Rev. 6-19. Rev. 2-3 addresses the church as the “ekklesia”. The word “saint” as opposed to “ekklesia” being used does not prove or disprove a pretribulation rapture. Obviously there will be many “saints” in the tribulation. Those who miss the rapture and come to accept Christ during this “time of trial and testing that shall come upon the whole earth.” This is one of the purposes of the tribulation. Rev. 12 speaks of a “remnant,” the “rest of her offspring.” This is obviously not the “ekklesia”.
Post-trib has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Even my 13 year old can read and understand that it is the church, married to Christ, already having been judged and adorned in white raiment, who returns with Him in Rev. 19:14 just as prophesied in Zech. 14:5; Jude 14; and 1 Thess. 3:13. The judgment seat of Christ is mentioned in Rev. 11:18 at the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe) which occurs mid-trib. Even the Holy Spirit thought it was important enough to show Daniel a prophetic vision of the judgment seat of Christ in Dan. 7:9-10. This occurs, chronologically, during the middle of the tribulation BEFORE Antichrist is destroyed at Christ’s return. Daniel writes:
“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.”
This occurs BEFORE Antichrist is destroyed, for Daniel then describes: “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.” – Daniel 11:11
Scripture is very clear, the church is raptured to heaven (Hebrews 12:22-23) and experiences the judgment seat of Christ and returns with him. The resurrection/rapture does NOT happen after Christ returns, throws the Antichrist and False Prophet into the lake of fire, an angel binds Satan and throws him into the bottomless pit – then those beheaded are resurrected.
It is quite sad at how your efforts to attack the pre-trib rapture is so misguided, misdirected, and unfounded. It comes from a lack of understanding, a lack of spiritual wisdom and discernment, and from pride in not wanting to admit you are wrong.
Jamison,
This will be my last reply to you as this seems to be a one-way conversation where you pontificate but fail to adequately respond to the points that I have been making. So once again, I will give reasoned answers to your assertions.
1. In answer to your question, “can you provide just one verse that portrays a post-tribulation rapture in Revelation? I would love to see what I have been missing.” This is easy to answer.
Worshiping the beast and his image, and the mark of the beast are things that happen during the tribulation. Those who overcome the beast by their testimony and death participate in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is post-tribulational. When Paul describes the rapture in 1 Thess 4:13-18 he makes it clear that the dead are raised first, then living believers are caught up. This is simple, logical, literal exegesis. Resurrection precedes rapture, resurrection occurs at the end of the tribulation.
2. I have already answered you regarding the New Testament use of the word saints, but you are using circular reasoning to justify a different meaning of the word when it appears in Revelation. You are in effect saying,
“Pre-tribulationism is true.
Revelation indicates that there are saints in the tribulation.
Therefore the saints in Revelation cannot be the Church.”
If you were to argue that the woman in Revelation 12 represents Israel (which I do not dispute), it is difficult to argue exegetically that, “her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus,” are anything but Christians.
3. None of the scriptures that you quote in your third through fifth paragraphs place the rapture before the tribulation. So I suspect your 13 year old has been influenced by your teaching rather than the scripture itself.
4. Hebrews 12 has nothing to do with the rapture. The rapture is not mentioned or even alluded to in the entire chapter. Instead it speaks of approaching God through Christ as opposed to approaching Him by the law, demonstrating the superiority of Christ and being in the presence of His glory without the condemnation that the law brings. Again you are ignoring context.
5. When someone lacks a valid argument, they often attack the one they are debating. That is exactly what you have done by casting aspersion on my character. Perhaps you should take Jesus’ advice in Matt 7:3-9.
If you can positively identify the church (to include going back to 33 AD) in Rev. 6-18, including the resurrection of Rev. 20:4, with actual Scripture-not adding one single word to the text – I will give you $10,000. Ha!
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
He judges both those alive and dead at His appearing.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ “forever” at the 7th trumpet. How long is “forever”.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The time of the judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet, if we accept the text at face value, instead of attempting to make it fit our manmade doctrine.