The $10,000 Reward
Goodfight Ministries (not myself) offered a $10,000 reward to anyone that can find a single passage in scripture that clearly places the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. So far no one has been able to do that. However, an individual that mistakenly thought that I had offered the $10,000 posted a challenge on my Facebook page, insisting that he had the one passage that proved the rapture occurred before the tribulation and that I should pay him for it. Here is the passage:
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Rev 5:6-10
If the reader is unfamiliar with this argument, please read through the passage again and see if this seems like an obvious proof text for pre-tribulationism without a presupposition. Chances are you won’t.
The gist of the argument is this:
- The 24 elders in Rev 5:9 sing a song in which they declare themselves to be redeemed.
- The number 24 in scripture is used of 2 completed groups, levitical priests and musicians, therefore the use of the number 24 indicates a complete Church.
- The 24 elders appear in a heavenly scene before the commencement of judgments.
- Therefore the 24 elders represent the raptured Church and this supposedly settles the debate.
One author named Greg Lauer put it this way:
“The identity of the 24 elders is nothing less than a key that unlocks with stunning, irrefutable clarity the question of whether the Church—the body of Christ—will remain on earth for the duration of the coming seven-year Tribulation, or if the Church will be raptured before it begins.”1
Let’s see if in fact this settles with “irrefutable clarity” whether or not the Church will be present on the earth during the great tribulation.
Problems With Premises
The 24 Elders Declare Themselves To Be Redeemed
In the 9th & 10th verse of Chapter 5 it reads:
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Emphasis Added
This verse is taken from the NASB translation of the Bible, and is consistent with most English Bible translations. However in the KJV instead of using the terms them and they, the terms are rendered as us and we. Below is how the same passage reads in the KJV of the Bible.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
There is definitely a material difference here in translation. There are basically 2 groups of source documents that were used to translate the Bible into English. One is called the Texus Recuptus or Received Text, from which the King James Bible was primarily translated. The other group of documents are known as the Majority Text or Revised Text and are the source of most modern English translations. In my opinion, the Majority Text is more reliable. But rather than shift the debate over to KJV vs non-KJV, the question of whether or not the 24 Elders speak of themselves as redeemed or not still does not address the core question as to whether or not this is a proof text for pre-tribulationism.
John Walvoord former President of Dallas Theological Seminary and unofficially recognized as the Dean of Pre-Tribulationism wrote in his commentary on the Book of Revelation that the identity of the 24 Elders was problematic because of the discrepancies in original documents and in no way did he attempt to equate the 24 Elders with the raptured Church, although he did lean toward them being redeemed men. Instead it was simply a question as to whether they were human or angelic beings.
“…there is difference of opinion as to the identity of the twenty-four elders. In 5:9-10 additional light is cast upon their character. If the text of the Authorized Version is correct, the twenty-four elders in their new song declare that God has redeemed them by His blood out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation and has made them kings and priests. If the twenty-four elders are actually redeemed by the blood of Christ, it is clear that they could not be angels but must be redeemed men. Some ancient versions of Scripture give a different rendering. In keeping with this variation in text, the song herein recorded is translated in the American Standard Version of 1901 as follows:
Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.
If this latter rendering is the proper one, it leaves undetermined whether the twenty-four elders are men or angels. It records only that they pay tribute to the Lamb, as the One who was slain and who purchased men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. Such a song would be worthy of angels as well as redeemed men.
The fact that there is a variation in texts in this passage, however, by no means determines beyond question that the text used by the Authorized Version is incorrect. This is still debatable, although most textual scholars of the twentieth century prefer the revised text. Even if the revised text is accepted, however, though it removes absolute proof of the human origin of the twenty-four elders, it does not constitute specific proof that they are angels. It merely leaves the matter open. In view of the fact that the twenty-four elders are pictured as having crowns of gold and clothed in white raiment, as if they are already a complete people judged and rewarded, the weight of evidence still is in favor of considering them as representatives of the church, the Body of Christ. The alternative suggestion that they are angels, however, is possible.” 2
The problem with the premise in this case is that if the 24 Elders are redeemed, it does not logically follow that they represent the Church raptured before the tribulation. So at this stage there are 2 major problems with this theory. One it is questionable as to whether the 24 elders are or are not redeemed. Second, if we accept that they are, we still have a long way to go in proving that they represent the raptured Church. There is a third problem as well. It is not just the 24 Elders that sing, it is also the 4 living creatures. These 4 living creatures are mentioned by the Prophets as angelic beings in Eze 1:10 and Eze 10:14. It is also obvious contextually throughout the book of Revelation that the 4 living creatures are angelic beings. How then can they be redeemed and sing the same song as the 24 Elders?
The Use of 24 to Signify The Complete Church
This is an extremely weak argument. First of all it is not stated explicitly that this group of Elders represents the raptured Church. Instead we are asked to go back and look for the use of 24 in scripture for a corollary. Those given are representative of the divisions of the levitical priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24, and the musicians.
Many Pre-Tribulationists Believe The Church Is Not Mentioned In Revelation From Chapters 4-19
Many pre-tribulational Bible teachers are emphatic in insisting that the Church is completely absent from Chapters 4-19 of Revelation. If this is indeed the case, then that position militates against using Rev 5:9-10 as a proof text for pre-tribulationism. So what you have here is one group of pre-tribulationists nullifying each-other’s proof texts. John MacArthur however has staked out both positions as being valid which is an obvious contradiction. In one sermon MacArthur stated:
“It is a curiosity and should be noted that from chapter 4 verse 1 on through the remainder of this book, the church is never mentioned. It is not mentioned. There is no mention of the church at all, which seems to fit the fact that the Lord is going to show John things that happen after matters concerning the church. And so, we can assume here that the church is out of the picture. And by assumption, therefore, many would say the Rapture must occur before these things begin to take place.” 3
Then conversely in another sermon he states the following:
“All the beings in the universe break out in praise. Verse 8 says, ‘And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures,’ that is the cherubim, the four living beings, ‘and the twenty-four elders,’ you remember they represent the redeemed and raptured church, ‘fell down before the Lamb, they fell down in worship.’ This is the moment for which all of heaven and redeemed earth has been waiting. Now as we come in to this song of worship, this time of praise, we begin to notice some marvelous things. And I wish we had time to just literally exhaust all of it but stay with me and we’ll move rapidly and say what time allows us to say.
When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, again they represent the church so the symbolically they are the raptured church, fell down before the Lamb.” 4
You can’t have it both ways. Either the Church is mentioned between Chapters 4-19 or it is not. It is inconsistent to say on one hand that the Church is absent from Chapters 4-19 and then say that the 24 Elders in Chapter 5 represent the raptured Church.
Other Examples Of Pre-Tribulationists With Differing Opinions on The Meaning of Rev 5:9
J Vernon McGee
J Vernon McGee, was a pioneer radio broadcaster, theologian holding a Doctorate in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and host of the Thru the Bible Radio Network program. He said the 24 elders represent the Church, including the tribulation saints. He acknowledges that the 4 living creatures sing the song also despite being angelic beings. In his own translation however he relies on the majority text in Rev 5:10 and renders the disputed words as them and they instead of we and us. 5
John Darby
In his commentary on the book of Revelation, John Darby, the co-founder of the Plymouth Brethren and father of pre-tribulationism says that the 24 elders are priests. John Darby wrote his own translation of the Bible, and in it he translates the words in Rev 5:10 where the Elders are singing, by using the pronouns them and they rather than us and we. Further in his Revelation commentary he makes no attempt to equate the 24 elders with the Church in any way but appears to consider them to be more angelic in nature however that characterization is debatable.
…When He has taken the book, the living creatures and elders fall down before Him with golden censers full of the prayers of the saints. They are priests here…. I read the passage thus:-“Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every kindred, and hast made them unto our God kings and priests, and they shall reign over the earth.”… The four living creatures, that is, all the exercise of God’s power in creation and providence, join their Amen, and the elders worship God in the excellency of His being. But the living creatures and elders are joined (verse 8) in falling down before the Lamb. I do not think they are meant to be distinguished in the latter part of the verse, but merge in the elders, symbolizing different service but not now two classes…6
Clarence Larkin
Clarence Larkin is best know for his hand drawn illustrations of dispensational time-lines and end time events, particularly for the tribulation. In his commentary on the book of Revelation Larkin states the the 24 Elders are the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles. On the one hand he says they do not represent the Church, but in the same sentence affirms the false idea that this proves the rapture occurs before the tribulation. It should further be pointed out that Larkin also believed that the Great Pyramid in Egypt confirmed his end-time predictions in his book Dispensational Truth, chapter 32 “DISPENSATIONAL TEACHING OF THE GREAT PYRAMID.”8 This is the same error that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses fell into by using the Pyramid to predict Christ’s return.
While the Four and Twenty Elders are representative of the Old and New Testament Saints, they do not, as a whole, represent the Church, for the Church is composed only of New Testament Saints. The Old Testament saints are merely the Friends of the Bridegroom. But the fact that the New Testament Saints, as represented by the Twelve Apostles, are required to make up the 24 representative characters (Elders), is additional evidence that the Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation.7
C.I. Scofield
Arguably one of the most effective pre-tribulation teachers in history, CI Scofield published an annotated reference Bible in 1909 and revised it in 1917. His Bible had sold over 2 million copies before the end of WWII. Since then it has sold millions more. Scofield’s notes influenced many pre-tribulational teachers including Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye. In his annotated reference Bible, Scofield makes no mention of the significance of the 24 elders anywhere that they appear in the book of Revelation however he always associates the 4 living creatures as being Cherubim referenced in Ezekiel 1:5.
Conclusions:
- It is unclear whether or not the 24 elders are referring to themselves or others textually from the passage.
- Both the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures sing the same song. There is no debate that the 4 Living Creatures are angelic beings which have not been redeemed and are not part of the Church. Therefore the use of them and they fits the context more logically than us and we.
- If the 24 Elders have in fact themselves been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, it still leaves open the question as to who they are or who the may represent. It does not automatically prove they represent the Church raptured.
- The lack of unanimity among notable pre-tribulationists regarding the identity and significance of the 24 Elders makes using it as a proof text extremely problematic.
- It is a self defeating argument when held up to the other more popular pre-tribulational contention that the Church is not mentioned from chapters 4-19 of Revelation. To hold to both positions is logically inconsistent. However that doesn’t seem to bother John MacAurthur.
If this is the best example that can be made to provide a single passage of scripture that clearly places the rapture before the tribulation, then I think Good Fight Ministries could safely raise their offer from $10,000 to $1,000,000.
In all of the above discussion I fail to see 1Peter 3:22 Jesus Christ, ‘who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand — with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.’
God, Jesus, being eternal, have an unending kingdom.
Many verses allude to the timeless nature pre and post mankind. Man and his creation, fall and redemption are but a hiccup in Almighty Gods timeline.
Having said that, it seems as though the 24 elders in Revelation may be the council that has been there a lot lot than we think.
This body of authorities may have seen the fall of Satan, the war in heaven, the creation of the world and mankind, the raising of Enoch.
Their crowns and white robes may be symbolic of their power and pure nature to even be a part of august assembly.
If the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Heb. 13:20, why would anyone think the age of the New Covenant Church is going to end before the Second Coming of Christ, and then God is going back to the Old Covenant system now found to be “obsolete” in Heb. 8:13?
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Heb. 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Heb. 12:22-24.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by
husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God’s Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God’s chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the “son” in Psalm 2? Who is the “suffering servant” of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
Watch the YouTube videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
It’s a pity that the predisposition in a subject determines the narrow mindedness. Why the focus only on the ‘we’ verses ‘they’ question, not once looking what’s in Greek, where the ‘man’ in ‘men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them’ is missing, making the revised text suspicious. But there is so much more, their attributes, which are all named in the preceding chapters as rewards for the overcomers of the churches. Their activities, comforting, praying, worshiping and teaching are all church activities. They offer prayers – which must be their own because the bible teaches that no intermediaries between God and the saints are necessary any longer – only Christ, who is depicted as the ‘other angel’ in Rev.8 – starting everything, also the trumpets. The fact the church is no longer mentioned is because the body of Christ is no longer on earth, as candles, as testimony, bus in heaven. The ‘you can’t have both’ argument is not valid Testimony is done now by tribulation saints – no not a word ‘found’ in a verse of the bible – but yet fully biblical, reading that the beast waged war against ‘the saints’. What else must these people be but ‘tribulation saints’? And of whom is the loud voice in heaven, calling those tribulation saints ‘brothers’, if not a human being, whereas an angel is never called brother anywhere in the bible. This is confirmed by Rev.19:10 an Heb.1:14, 2:5 and 11 and 17. And where do we hear angels sing and play harps in the Bible (keeping to the text, not the stories that Christianity has made of the text)?
Wow Peter! One thing at a time, please. To your first point, the subject of the post. It is written specifically to demonstrate that Rev 5:6-10 is a weak proof text for pretribulationism. It’s narrow deliberately so no apologies for that. I’m not going to address all your other rambling points except for this. Saints as a term is used of Christians throughout the New Testament. The idea of left-behind “tribulation saints” is a man-made false doctrine.
Wow, the hoops people jump through to make themselves believe the lies men have created at the behest of satan. John 3:13 is a great verse to think on and ponder what that means. The 24 elders are certainly not humans as they are in heaven with the four creatures with the four heads, and fall down on their face and worship each time the four creatures give honor and glory to God the 24 elders fall down on their face in worship. Then in the new heaven those four creatures and the 24 elders are there. And all the humans that ever were are there in the new earth, with God and Jesus.
One must put all the Bible together in order to get the whole truth. Look at John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10 keep from Terreo Ek, Greek means to guard protect watch over, Jesus says keep from the evil one NOT REMOVE!
Jesus in John 6:39,49,44,54, Says when the resurrection is, on the last day. In John 11:24 someone else knows when the resurrection is also, the last day!
Revelation 20:4-6 discusses the first resurrection, which is at Jesus bodily return to this earth. Rev 16:15 says Behold I come as a thief for the last time, at the 6th vial, before the 7th vial is poured out showing what? That He has not come back as of the 6th vial.
Look at Rev 14:14-20, notice verses 14,15,16 is showing us the shout of the archangel to He who has come on the clouds in power and great glory, notice Jesus reaping the earth, we know from Matthew 13:39 that the angels are the reapers and they come at the end of the age. Then no sooner are we removed from the earth and made immortal and incorruptible, then Jesus turns around and pours out the wrath of God all over those who came to make war with the Lord at Megiddo. All humans who have given themselves to the Lord are the saints!
Psalm 18 the whole chapter read carefully, shows clearly it is a last moment rescue. Him coming on the roiling boiling black clouds with lightnings and thunderings. Matt 24:29-31 tells when the resurrection/rapture occurs, AFTER the tribulation. How much more clear can the word get? I wish people would seek the Lord through His word on the whole truth.
Armageddon is shown to us in Ezechiel 39, the carrion birds are invited to feast, also in Matt 24:28, Rev 19:17-18. Also the humans being redeemed from the earth are in the skies on the sea of glass mingled with fire at this time but in Rev 19:4 we see the elders again in Heaven at that time. Now then move on down to verse 10 of Rev 19 and see there where the angel who was speaking to John whom John was ready to worship, and see what he the angel says to John???? But he said to me see that you do it not, for I am your fellow servant and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. So the angels call themselves brethren with us!
People show they have accepted man’s word over the word of God, and don’t know the truth at all, then get angry with everyone else because we don’t accept man’s words over the word of God. It’s a crying shame.
I believe in the Post-trib Rapture. You have not to correct me. But your comment, that the 24 elders are not redeemed humans, I do not believe. I agree with you in most of what you wrote, I think, that is important.
God bless!
That’s great you believe the truth. However, there’s nothing at all that says these are redeemed humans. How could they be the apostles when John was seeing them present time his time, but he wasn’t there yet? No human can look upon God and live. Those beings have been in Heaven since God created the heavens. He did that before creating the earth. Also, the angel John bent down to worship in Rev 22:9 said, see that you don’t do it, worship God. I am your fellow servant and brethren the prophets. Angels consider themselves redeemed also!
You may want to reconsider the “first resurrection” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20. Will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after the Second Coming?
A Millennium Puzzle to solve…
The “first resurrection” in Rev. chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in chapter 11. There are two different types of resurrection in John chapter 5. There is a spiritual resurrection from the dead in John 5:24, and a bodily resurrection from the dead in John 5:28-29.
My view of the Millennium agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thess. 1:7-10, when Paul said Christ returns in “flaming fire” taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel. The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
My view agrees with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when Peter said this earth is going to burn and “dissolve” when He comes as a thief on the day of the Lord. The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
My view agrees with what Paul said in 2 Tim. 4:1, when Paul said both the living and the dead will be judged at His appearing. The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others is found in Rev. 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. (This verse also proves the Book of Rev. is not in chronological order.) The judgment of the dead is also found at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
My view agrees with what Jesus said in Matt. 25:31-46, where He described the judgment of the sheep and goats, which leaves no mortals alive on the planet at the end of the passage. There are also no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Rev. chapter 19.
My view agrees with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness.
My view agrees with what John recorded in Rev. 9:1-2, when an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit, which means the pit was locked before that time. Are there wicked angels already in the pit in Rev. 9:11? John recorded angels already “bound” in Rev. 9:14. The beast “ascends” out of the pit in Rev. chapter 11, which means the beast was in the pit before that time.
Take all of the above and compare it to the symbolic language found in Rev. chapter 20, and the fact the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you will have the truth.
Your view friend does not take into consideration all of the truth of the whole Bible and all of the verses in the OT that go on to describe the whole of the times of the millennial reign either. The entire Bible tells the whole story. Matthew 25 tells of the judgment of the people left alive who didn’t come to Armageddon to fight against the Lord and their judgment. Your view misses a whole lot of information.
Also, who doesn’t know that the book of Revelation is a completely back and forth book, not in Chronological order? I mean the beginning of the tribulation is in chapters 12&13. Matthew 13:39 begs to differ with your view. Ezekiel 39, Zechariah 14, Joel, and Amos both differ with your idea. Sorry but your view just skips out on many things. Take them as a whole story to show the entire picture all together.
We assume the 24 elders are human yet they are seen in Heaven prior to the ascension of Jesus, the slain lamb. The 24 elders are angels. There are multiple verse in the bible that speak of a divine council, the sons of god in the bible. Google the Divine council and you will see. We assume crowns look like what kings and queens today wear, but in the 1st century a crown looked more like a golden wreath, a circle, like the Romans wore. Hmm, a golden circle, crowns, could these be halos that John saw? Where do we get the notion that Angels wear halos? Could it come Revelation and seeing the Heavenly elders wearing golden “crowns”?
Natalie, your comment is pure speculation and conjecture.
Those 24 elders are there in Daniel’s time when we see the four beings with the four faces. Every time the four beings worship so do the 24 elders fall on their faces worshipping also. Certainly you don’t think the apostles are greater than the forever king David?
She is absolutely right and you are guilty of what you accuse her of. You’re doing the same thing, in assuming and or speculating they’re not eternal spirits, aren’t you? She seems as sure as you do, and she has someone who has seen the same exact thing as she has, that since the heavens and the earth were created, that spiritual counsel of elders has been there. They remain in heaven forever as well, why would God have humans in heaven where no one can look upon His face and live?
God will still need Jesus that we may look upon Him for eternity. They will be one again, inside Jesus. It has served God well, that He made Jesus, His Word, into flesh, in many aspects. When I cannot make sense of things I then study it to death, back and forth between old and new testaments. Comparing what the patriarchs of the faith, saw, heard, and were told, and or experienced, with what the apostles of Jesus had to say, and what Jesus Himself said. John saw those elders up there in heaven, before he died, so he would not have seen himself in spirit form there, before he was there.
We will, all of us who are the Lords, be kings and priests with Jesus, here on earth in our immortal flesh for the millennial kingdom. How do we ignore these things? We see the Bible says them, and the Bible is never ever wrong. Jesus is the word of God who put on flesh, that means He’s the voice of God as well. He is God so He speaks truth and no idle word has ever come from His mouth. So we must assume at all times Jesus knew what He was saying.
Hello Tammy, the point of the original post is that Revelation 5:6-10 cannot be used as a proof text for pretribulationism for multiple reasons. Including but not limited to discrepancies in the early manuscript copies.
I further demonstrated that most opinions about the 24 Elders are just that, opinions. Even pretribulationsists don’t agree about it. It is not unreasonable to challenge Natalie’s opinion about halos and divine the council any more than it is to disagree that the 24 elders represent the Church. I haven’t done what you’re accusing me of as I have not attempted to say who the 24 elders are other than what Rev 5:6-10 actually says. Instead, I have said what they are not. At the end of the day, Natalie may be right but not based on sound exegesis, and that is the point of my criticism of her comment. Based on your past comments, I’m surprised by your reaction. Maybe you agree with Natalie’s opinion and that’s why you reacted the way you did. Regardless, other than refuting Rev 5:6-10 as a proof text for pretribulationism, it’s not a subject I’m interested in debating but I do believe we need to criticize speculative teachings.
Where does the Bible teach the word exegesis? I don’t believe in pre trib either, for sure it’s garbage. I agree with you for the most part, just don’t believe it’s true that the 24 elders in heaven are humans. There are no humans in heaven, in paradise yes for sure as Jesus says and Paul agrees paradise is not the part of heaven where God the Father is.
Hello Tammy, The word exegesis can be found right next to omniscient, trinity, rapture, etc. Obviously, those words do not exist in the Bible either but the concepts and ideas behind them do. Having said that, there are plenty of examples in scripture where exegesis is implied.
I don’t subscribe to human words. Hermeneutics and exegesis do not exist in the Bible therefore they are human words that don’t amount to anything important. Just words men made up to say less. Study to show thyself approved is quite fantastic, wastes no words, and makes no words more than needed.
Your sentence contains words that are not in the bible besides hermeneutics or exegesis. [subscribe, bible, fantastic] Without the use of those equally unbiblical words, your sentence is absolute nonsense. All words are human words whether they exist in the Bible or not. You can’t even follow your own rule in the sentence you use to describe it. You might want to reconsider what you’re saying.
I am not arguing foolish genealogy at all as those in Heaven have no genes, they are spirits. It’s clear they are spirits. That’s all I’m saying. We never ever see people in heaven other than the humans under the altar, which doesn’t say anything about them being in Heaven with God the Father. We don’t actually know what that Altar is. It says under the altar once.
As I said before, this is not a topic I wish to debate. However, I still think the conclusions you’ve drawn about the 24 elders are speculative.
So you believe the Bible doesn’t tell us anything about who these elders in heaven are? They’re on 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God. That’s huge and humans couldn’t do that. There are no humans in heaven. Mankind says humans go to heaven Jesus and Paul agree paradise is where it is. You don’t want to speak on it but keep saying I’m speculating. Lol it’s a bit inflammatory of a thing to say, wouldn’t you agree?
There’s plenty of verses on the subject enough to prove it out. Not sure how that’s, in your mind, speculative?
I really don’t understand why this of all things is such a point of contention or why it matters so much to you.
Did the Apostle John see a vision of the “souls” now in heaven with Christ in the Book of Revelation? Where were the souls of the Old Testament prophets and the Apostles of Christ during the first century, and where are they now?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol “C” Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
“It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view.”
The quotation above is from the book “Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]”, by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
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PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
Amen Natalie
Matthew chapter 24 is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible. Jesus said that prior to His return it will be like in the time of Noah. Violence
is increasing day by day, and that was one of the reasons the Lord destroyed the earth due to all the violence of men. Jesus warned of increasing
pestilence of wars and rumors of wars etc. Whether fake news or real/ they are warning of impending pandemics. I made the mistake of sharing
with someone at church that I didn’t believe in the peripheral theology of “pre-trib” rapture and this person is distancing themselves from me.
One has to ACCEPT the Pre-Trib stance or technically you cannot be a member. This is not scriptural. It’s getting scary. 🙁
“One has to ACCEPT the Pre-Trib stance or technically you cannot be a member. ”
“The “pre-trib. rapture” teaching cannot be found stated in scripture, but now pastors, evangelists, missionaries and Bible school and seminary professors who teach it would lose their jobs if they rejected it! This is the major reason why this doctrine continues to be taught – a religious system has made it a requirement for such to be “on the payroll”, in spite of the fact that neither the Lord Jesus nor His apostles ever taught it!”
Shalom!
The 24 elders are not a proof for a Pre-trib Rapture. Even some Pretribbers agree that Rev 5:9 cannot be used as a proof. The KJV is not the best translation. It should read “and has redeemed them (instead of us) to God”. In Rev 7:9-17 we can see, that the elder is not included with the raptured Church. It says them and they.
The 24 elders belong to the Church in Heaven and are OT Saints,they are the firstborn (1.Cor 15:23),who are resurrected with Christ (the spirits of just men made perfect Heb 12:23). They are resurrected with a new body and therefore could be seen (Mat 27:52+53).
The 24 eldersin heaven have been there all along and were never humans. They will be there in heaven for eternity. Humans don’t go to heaven they go to paradise. Paradise is where Jesus has been preparing a place for us. If people only paid attention to this fact that the elders remain in heaven not paradise which is for humans, it’d Be great!
No one has ascended to heaven except He who first descended! That’s Jesus Christ alone. No one can look upon God and live. When God brings down the new earth from the new heaven, He will live with us inside of Jesus. We were given Jesus, God in man form, that we may look upon Him and continue to live.
There is not one place in the word that says we live in or go to heaven ever. We are not saved and redeemed to go to heaven, we are redeemed to bring us back to what we were always meant to be, made into the image of they who are one, God! Earth is and always has been our inheritance. Study it and find the truth of it. The Lord will reward those who diligently seek His face on all matters.
Principally, I comment on this ere site regarding matters pertaining to the so-called rapture, not to challenge unorthodox ‘Christian’ beliefs. Yes, there WILL be a rapture; but this is only the mechanism that God in Christ employs in the catching up of His dead & alive saints ; 1 Thessalonians.4:17, when Christ returns at His Second Advent.
But, what is paradise? Is not paradise heaven, and heaven paradise? Yes, paradise was (and will yet be) on earth in the new heavens and earth as Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, & 2 Peter 3:13 plainly declare, but paradise and heaven are contiguous terms; they are inextricably linked. The Scriptures that prove this are numerous; Luke 23:43, John 12:26, John 14.2-3, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8 etc. Will we not be as the angels in heaven, Matthew 22:30? Heaven is God’s throne, and the earth His footstool; Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:49. Heaven and earth cannot be separated, the earth is down here, the heaven is up there (yes, we DON’T live on a planet) how high is the third heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:2? and can the depth of the earth be measured, Revelation 20:1, & a great many other Scriptures?
I forgot to mention! Where is our Saviour right now? At the Father’s right hand (in heaven -above where His departed saints are with Him) Acts 2:33, and elsewhere.
So what? You do not realize there is a huge separation between where God the Father is and the right hand of God where Jesus and His departed from earth saints are? Look at John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
No one has ever seen God. No one can see God and live!! Paradise is yes up in the third heaven somewhere, but not in heaven where God is! Look at Revelation 21:9-21 and realize something here, every time someone talks of visiting heaven the third heaven it is not called heaven but paradise. Also look at the description of paradise which is new Jerusalem coming down to us the earth the new earth is our inheritance. No one ever said we go to heaven to live for eternity.
John 3:31
The One who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:42
They were asking, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?'”
John 6:62
Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?
2 Cor 12:2-6 The Vision of Paradise
2 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
I am not speaking just to speak i am trying to help you see the truth. No one can see God and live! It is not done. Paradise is not heaven where God lives and no one is going to heaven. Paradise Jesus said John said Paul said, not heaven where God is. The 24 elders are not human beings who were here, they have been in heaven with God since He created the angels and the heavenly beings. It’s no stretch to understand that earth was made for us and we for earth!
The Millennium has two reasons why it must be, three actually. It is the millennial sabbath rest for earth and her inhabitants. 2 it is to fulfill the promises to Abraham that his seed would be more than the sands of the sea. 3 it is to prepare us for eternity in the presence of God, who will come down to us in the form of Jesus they will be the temple there.
I don’t understand the “so what” comment, why the need for this?
Certainly, I agree, there is PRESENTLY (italics-not shouting, and so thereafter) “a huge separation between where God the Father is and the right hand of God, where Jesus and His departed from earth saints are”, as you say.
This is because the departed saints have NOT yet received their glorified bodies, so currently they CANNOT enter the holiest place, which they shall yet do in a soon coming millennial Day. For they are still “under the altar” Revelation 6:9. The saints WILL yet enter into His presence AFTER the “the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.” Revelation 15:8. after which “They SHALL SEE His face”; Revelation 22:4.
In our PRESENT frail bodies (as also the departed OT saints) we CANNOT approach Him; 1 Timothy 6:16.
When Christ said “it is finished” John 19:30, THEN (at His Second Advent) His saints “WILL inherit ALL things”; Revelation 21:7. We will THEN “see Him as He is”; 1 John 3:2. And if we are “to be like Him” as this verse clearly teaches, THEN we will have access to “the throne of grace” Hebrews 4:16, when all the redeemed (those names in the book of life) will know THEN that they are meet for heaven; when they will behold “Him as He is”.
The Saviour Himself said (do we believe Him?); “He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father.” John 14:9. Psalm 105:4 exhorts us to “seek His face evermore.”
I believe that the heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-27 will be VISIBLE above the earthly city of Jerusalem during the soon coming millennial reign; Psalm 8:1.
May we all grow in grace and truth.
I believe that the heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-27 will be VISIBLE above the earthly city of Jerusalem during the soon coming millennial reign; Psalm 8:1. SAY WHAT? How do you believe that? what verse makes you think that? Nowhere does it say that new Jerusalem shall be visible while we live out the millennial reign. That makes no sense you have decided something and made it into a doctrine of your own huh?
You are making whole things up as you go along here. Where did you get the idea that because we are like Christ that we will be able to come and go from heaven to the earth any time we want? Where is the verses that makes you think that besides being like Christ? Who ever said such a thing? The Lord in His word prepares us for all things and tells us everything we need to know and never did He says we will come and go from heaven to earth and or that new Jerusalem shall sit over head above us. How would new Jerusalem then be presented to us all as a gift?
I am sorry but you just show clearer and clearer that you do not know what you even believe, or i should say why you believe the beliefs you believe. That’s pretty foolish to create all kinds of things for yourself to think and or believe because you take something that doesn’t mean at all that which you decided to believe it means. So therefore you are not someone to listen to because you are unstable in your thinking. No one can look upon God and live how does that equate to you that because we will be just like Christ immortal and incorruptible that we can now go look upon God? where is there a verse that tells us we are doing that ever? Jesus is the express image of God, that does not mean that we who didn’t first descend can now ascend. Whoever has seen Jesus has no need to see the Father, because Jesus is that express image of God.
We are being made into the image of Jesus, not God the father. We were human before we were saved and before we are made incorruptible, but even as immortals we are still only the image of Jesus, not God. We cannot come and go to the heavens because only He who first descended can ascend, get it? He was God He was with God before He gave that up and became a perfect Human being the only perfect human being. We can never be Him, we can only ever be immortal because He made us that way. He Jesus was not made of a man He was made by God (Himself) into a seed which the woman without a man brought forth, we can never be that ever. Then we would be God’s ourselves, and that will not happen. We cannot unbecome humans. What need would we have of God if we became God’s ourselves?
The argument over the identity of the 24 elders usually centers around the claim that the Church is removed from the earth seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Dispensationalists also often describe the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation as “144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams”. However, the text describes them as “firstfruits” of the Lamb. The Apostle Paul uses the same language to describe Christians in Romans 16:5. Paul also describes Christians as “virgins” in 2 Corinthians 11:2. If you go to the modern nation of Israel and ask those living there which tribe they come from you will find most of them have no idea. Why not? During the diaspora there was tremendous intermarriage between the various tribes. Therefore, unlike the Apostle Paul, most today do not come from one particular tribe. We also have to remember that the 10 Northern tribes were taken into captivity by the Assyrians, long before the time of Christ. Based on these facts it is likely the Book of Revelation is using the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes in a symbolic manner. We have to admit the Book of Revelation is full of symbols. The Lamb is a symbol of Christ and the dragon is a symbol of Satan. We should keep all of this in mind when we are arguing over the identity of the 24 elders.
I really liked this article and all of your responses. I agree with you on many points! The Gog Magog thing in Ezekiel 36-39 is absolutely shown to be armageddon. The kingdom with Christ where we will be kings and priests with Him for the 1000 year reign the first 7 years is when we will 1) be burning the weapons of war that Jesus made ineffective against Him, and 2) when we will be picking up bones and burying them for 7 months.
I would love to gab more with you on email.
You have to admit The LORD knows the identities of the 144,000 Jews gathered out if the twelve individual tribes whether they or YOU do or not. He knows every single one of His Sheep from the two folds and everything about us that we DON’T know. We do well to believe simply what He has said and not make it any more or less than what He plainly, literally has said.
The only way I can get your idea to literally match the text is to assume that these 144,000 are the souls of Old Testament saints, who are with Christ now.
I know the idea does not match Tim LaHaye’s books, but it is a “literal” choice.
Byrch/Joe – I am writing about the identity of the 144,000 in my upcoming book “The Final Harbinger”. These are literal Jews just as the text states. We read more about them in Rev. 14. They are virgins, fautless, and are/were the first fruits unto God and the Lamb. Who are they?
The 144,000 will be resurrected for a special mission during the tribulation. They are 144,000 male children that were killed by Herod “in all the coasts” of Israel when he was trying to kill baby Jesus. These are the first martyrs unto Christ. This is why they are “faultless” before the throne, have no guile/deceipt in their mouths and are virgins; they follow the lamb everywhere He goes (Rev. 14:4-5). The prophecy found in Ezekiel 37 prophesies of this resurrection just prior to the Gog-Magog war (Ez. 38 & 39). While this has always been interpreted as an allegory depicting the rebirth of Israel, Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones speak of a literal resurrection (Ez. 37:10) of “old dry bones” (Ez. 37:11) that had once been “slain” (Ez. 37:9) .
Match up the prophecies from Matthew 2:16-18; Jeremiah 31:15-17; and Ezekiel 37:1-14. Rachel is told “there is hope, your children will once again come to their own borders.”
What Satan meant for bad, God is going to use for good!
Jamison,
You are banned from making any further comments. This site does not exist for you to promote your book. You are a false teacher and deceiver. You just made the outrageous claim that the 144,000 are the infants slain by Herod?! The order to slay the male children under 2 years old was given specifically in the city of Bethlehem and the vicinity. There were not 144,000 inhabitants of Bethlehem when Christ was born, let alone 144,000 infants. Your false, unbiblical pre-tribulationism is bad enough, but now you are blatantly creating new interpretations of prophecy out of thin air, and trying to promote your book at the same time. Go peddle your lies somewhere else. To anyone reading these comments, know that the book of Jude was written to warn us about people like Jamison Broome.
Well put, I agree. Herod took no chances, he started from the coastline, and from every tribe, he wanted to remove any and all threats, is there any doubt as to why they had to go all the way to Egypt to escape? If Herod only killed around Bethlehem, Joseph could have taken the family to Nazereth.
The Lord knows who His own are yes they hear His voice and they follow Him! I am one of those sheep i do not listen to people very often they must be exceptional at speaking the truth that the Lord has shown me Himself through His word, by the power of the Holy Spirit!
You should try listening to everyone, not just those who are “exceptional” at speaking the truth. Jesus came to heal and rescue the sick, not the healthy. When you listen to the sick, you will hear in their speech the pain and suffering of their sins. This could be an opportunity for you to pray for them and share the good news.
Scott,
Since coming to the Lord I have never believed pretrib just from elementary reading. This was almost 20 years ago. I practice home church like the plymoth brethren due to finding weak or false pastors.
I use to enjou J Macarthur until reading his belief on the wine being grape juice and mutual submission in marriage. I found out his pretrib calvanism has gotten in the way of my listening to him.
How can someone continue to listen to sermons from a pastor who makes such blatant mistakes? How could you not think they are making errors in other ways? I am all for not throwing out th e baby with the bathwater in secular matters, but what if they have errors in other matters I dont discern and I teach or allow my family his/their teachings?
Hello Jeff, with respect to John MacArthur’s ministry. I do not recommend him for several reasons.
1. He is a Calvinist. Cavlinism is an unbiblical system of theology that gives believers a false sense of security that is very similar to that of the Pharisees.
2. While I think he has rightly exposed exposed Charismatic and Pentecostal manifestations as being fleshly or demonic, he takes his position too far by advocating cessationism insisting that the gifts of the Spirit died out with the Apostles.
3. He has stated that Christians knowingly take the mark of the beast and still be saved.
4. He is a pre-tribulationist.
If your home Church consists just of immediate family, I would caution you. Isolating yourself from other believers leaves you and your family vulnerable. Our enemy seeks to divide us from one another but our faith is something that is meant to be shared in community. Also beware of heavy shepherding. While I agree with you that there are many weak and false pastors, there are also good ones that God has raised up despite their imperfections. Pray that the Lord will lead you to a good fellowship. I think your concerns over grape juice vs wine and mutual submission are peripheral issues, not something in and of itself that should prevent you from having fellowship with other believers or as a reason to reject a Bible teacher. But in John MacArthur’s case he teaches things that deny God’s power and have the potential to damn the soul. In all things, know God’s word, walk with Him humbly, love others more than yourself, be true to His word.
I feel a bit guilty that I did not address the topic of your article. It is my belief that the 24 Elders do represent a group of resurrected saints. I think the KJV gets the wording correctly of “us” and “we.” I’m no expert on the various manuscripts, and I am not a KJV only person. But I do believe that not only are the 24 Elders resurrected saints, but the 4 Living Beings, the 4 Horsemen and the Angels with the Trumpets and Vials are glorified saints as well.
It also makes sense to me that the angel that flies through the sky “preaching the everlasting gospel to those who dwell on the earth” (Rev.14:6) must represent glorified saints too. Simply because the task of preaching the gospel is given only to the Church. When the Church is Raptured and the tribulation is ongoing, the only productive way to spread the gospel will be from those who have glorified bodies and can reach all parts of the earth at once. The preachers from heaven will be partly responsible for the great revival among those left behind and will give them strength to persevere. Those that believe the 144,000 are the great evangelists that causes this great revival have no biblical support, IMO. The 144,00 are not even “sealed” until the tribulation of the saints is over.
It is incorrect that Pre-Trib believers say that the church is not mentioned between chapter 4 through 19(?) in the book of Revelation. They should recognize that the Church is mentioned and arranged into various groups for various purposes in heaven. The saints that do live on the earth during the tribulation are also a part of the Church. So in reality, the Church is mentioned throughout the book. It is just that many don’t recognize them because of the symbology used.
I know that many may have a hard time believing that the “4 horsemen of the Apocalypse” could be saints, or even good angels. But we have 4 horses of various colors described in Zechariah 1 and 6. In those chapters, they are “the good guys.” They do the will of God from heaven. In Revelation, the 4 horses execute the judgments written in the little book that the Lamb opens. “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” There is no mention that heavenly angels have a right to judge the world, but it does say that saints have that right. After all, the world was given to mankind to rule. Not heavenly created angels.
More evidence that these various heavenly groups are resurrect saints comes form Jesus Himself. He said that the overcomes in the Church would break the nations to shivers, just as He received that right from the Father. Rev. 2:26-27 – And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
A careful reading of those verses mentions that it is not only Jesus who breaks the nations, but the overcoming saints do as well. This requires them to be in heaven in a glorified state well before the Second Coming. This also coincides with Psalm 149
5″Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.
Mr Sebastian,
I have to say I take issue with some of your assertions.
To assert that the four living creatures, the four horseman, and the angels blowing trumpets and pouring out their vials are all glorified Christians is pure speculation and is not supported by the text or the context irrespective of the 24 elders. Further there is no compelling evidence that the angel flying and preaching the gospel in Revelation 14:6 is a Christian either. While it is true that Jesus commissioned the Church to preach the gospel, there is nothing in scripture that indicates the Church has a non-compete relationship with the angels. In fact there are numerous examples of angels conveying the news of Christ’s appearing in Dan 9:20-27, Matt 28:1-7, Luke 1:11-17, Luke 1:26-38, Luke 2:8-14, Acts 1:9-11.
Also it is inconsistent with the pretrib position to admit that the Church is mentioned by the term saints in the chapters 4 and following of Revelation. I seriously doubt that you have been given special revelation that is a variation of pre-tribulationism especially since pre-tribulationism itself is a new doctrine which happens to be false. I suggest before you seek hidden meaning in the scripture that you stick with what it plainly says.
Hello Mr. Pruitt,
I have not sought hidden meanings, nor do I have special revelation. I know from Scripture that human men are sometimes called angels. It simply means messenger. Sometimes God Himself is called an angel. I think we can come to some conclusions who is who from the context.
I have no problem believing that the letters to the churches in Revelation that addresses the “angel of the church of….” is a human being. I think that we as Christians disagree and can get into debates on many different topics for the simple reason that translations can differ substantially at times. We may differ by depending on what translation one believes is most accurate. To me, the fact that Revelation begins almost immediately calling a human being an angel, helps us to understand the book better.
In Revelation 21 and 22, the angel that talked with John claimed to be “thy [John’s] fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets”- Rev. 22:9. This angel couldn’t, in my opinion, be a created heavenly angel. He is John’s fellow servant, and a prophet, like John. This angel had “the seven last plagues,” as stated in Revelation 21:9. This makes him a saint. You don’t have to believe that. Of course, you can’t believe that, because of your post-trib position. But that is how I read it.
If the KJV and other similar translations is most accurate on Rev. 5, which I have a right to believe that they are, then there is absolute proof that the 24 Elders and 4 Living Creatures are glorified saints. They have been rewarded and have crowns and thrones and have become “angelic”, which is a promise to Christians. Knowing this, and seeing how the angel himself described himself in Rev. 21 and 22, I believe the angel with the plagues is also a human being.
People want to know what it is we Christians will be doing in heaven when the Day of the Lord arrives. The Bible tells us. But most want it to be a mystery. I noticed that some of the mysteries that remain among many Christians are actually answered in the Bible. But it depends on finding the most accurate translation. I don’t think any one particular version is always the best in every instance. But believing the KJV in this chapter (Rev. 5), settles the mystery of who they are, and when the Rapture takes place.
Since modern Dispensational Theology is a big part of this question, some of us might be interested in a new book written by Pastor Matt Furse who is a Baptist from South Dakota. The title of the book is “Who is Israel?” Pastor Furse uses scripture to answer the title question. It is available at Amazon.
Scott Pruitt wrote;
Hello Mr. Sebastian,
I appreciate your persistence. However the reasons I outlined before have not changed. If anything your recent comments have given me more reason to regard Bloomfield as suspect. The reason being that you associated his teaching as a continuation of the teachings of Joseph Seiss. Joseph Seiss was a dispenstionalist but he was also a proponent of the occult and gnostic heresies regarding pyramidology and astrology. While I have not read Bloomfield’s books, I did research him a little bit following your comments and discovered that at least in one instance his exegesis of OT prophecy contradicted the Apostle James if the following quote is in its proper context:
https://alivingtext.com/arthur-bloomfield-bad-exegesis-22cc776452ae#.d9d10dqcg
Hi Mr. Pruitt,
I won’t try to get you to read Bloomfield anymore, as you have made it clear that you won’t. Hopefully others who read this will and will make up there own minds.
In regards to that one critique of which I was already aware, I don’t know what other problems he has with Bloomfield’s writings, but revealing only one objection is, in my opinion, not a very good reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. I could give you at least 3 areas of Bloomfield’s teachings that I disagree with! In one instance, he made a prediction that turned out to be totally false. He believed Antichrist would be responsible for breaking up the USSR. At least I give him credit for knowing that it had to break up! He died a decade before the wall came down. That hardly keeps me from rejecting his books outright.
I don’t know of any one person that I respect with a Christian ministry where I don’t have at least 2 areas of disagreement on Biblical topics, and especially prophecy. At my own church, I occasionally disagree with the Pastors and Elders on various interpretations. Being that I have been reading Scripture since the 1970s, it is only natural that there would be various differences of opinion. That by no means causes me to consider them “suspect” unless it is outright heresy.
Though I completely disagree with R.C. Sproul on eschatology, and at least one other issue that will remain unsaid, I still love much of what Ligonier Ministries teaches. Though I can give a whole list of things about J. Vernon McGee that I totally disagree with, I still listen to him daily and hold on to that which I believe is truly Biblical. The same is true for a lot of other well known ministries.
I was also already aware of Seiss and his Pyramidology. But I was not aware of his belief in astrology or gnosticism. I do know that Bloomfield never spoke on such things. I was reading C.S. Lewis a few years back and was surprised to see that even as a Christian he held to a belief in evolution. I wouldn’t discard his writings completely just because he believed something that I know is contrary to my understanding of Scripture. I don’t know, maybe Lewis discarded his evolutionary beliefs at some point.
Anyway! I would like to eventually discuss the specific topics on this site and leave all this behind. Agreed?
Hello Mr. Sebastian,
I apologize for taking so long to respond. I certainly would not discredit someone because of one thing I disagree with, unless that one thing is an essential of the faith, and there were at least 2 verifiable examples. Having said that, you are now giving me more reasons to doubt Bloomfield’s prophetic insight, considering that you you have admitted he made a false prophetic prediction. Combine that with his affinity toward Seiss, who I consider to be heretical, and you’re no helping his case in my eyes.
Anytime you want to raise a biblical issue/question as it relates to the second coming, including those that you have gleaned from Bloomfield, feel free. I believe in testing all things by the word of God.
Hello Mr. Pruitt,
No need to apologize. It is your site and you can take as long as you want to respond.
First, I want to say that I don’t intend to negatively debate or criticize you in any way. I totally understand where you are coming from. I’ll just say what I believe the Scripture teaches and if you agree, great! If you disagree and can prove me wrong, great!
Before I ever discovered Bloomfield’s books, I had already come to many conclusions in my study of eschatology. But I felt that I must be missing some things, but I didn’t know exactly what.
I believed that prophecy had to be more complex than what the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib and pre-wrath people were teaching. I also came to believe that if the majority of Christians believed a certain way about prophecy, then that way would probably be “off.” Why? Because Jesus said, among other prophets, that the end times would be very deceitful and many within the Church would fall for false teachings. We are told that as we get nearer to the Tribulation, many false prophets will arise and proclaim “the time draweth near.” So Jesus said many false prophets will be teaching prophecy and the second coming, and will lead many astray. So I came to believe that the majority (“many”) of Christians will probably not have the best understanding of what is to take place.
Secondly, most of us are trying to cram into 7 years what will take longer than that to fulfill. There are also great events described in the Bible that must occur before the Tribulation/Day of the Lord begins. I think this is true regardless of what position one takes on the timing of the Rapture. As a pre-trib believer myself, I do NOT believe the Rapture, as the popular dispensational saying goes, “is the next great event on God’s prophetic calendar.”
So what am I expecting before the Tribulation begins? One thing, among other things, is the coming of Antichrist. If I understood you correctly, I think we agree here. You have stated on this site that Thessalonians specifically says that Antichrist must be in power before the Tribulation begins? This is true. It is Antichrist that actually causes the last “great falling away.” These two things, the coming of Antichrist and the great apostasy/falling away, is therefore before the start of the Tribulation/Day of the Lord. Therefore the Tribulation or the Rapture cannot occur tomorrow!
I believe that the “coming” of Antichrist (“with all power, signs and lying wonders”) is a SEPERATE event entirely from the “revelation of the man of sin.” We have been told by the majority that the coming of Antichrist is the same thing, and occurs at the same time, as the revelation of Antichrist. There has never been a hindrance to any “antichrist” figure that prevents them from coming to power. Hitler and Stalin are just two examples of “antichrist” people coming to power, among many others.
When Antichrist first comes to power, very few will recognize him as the “Antichrist.” This is not his “revelation”. The majority of the world, even some professing Christians, will be deceived by the power, and the great signs and wonders and will think of him as a saviour of the world. So when will Antichrist be “revealed” and when will the world recognize him for what he really is? When will they know when he is actually Satan’s man? In other words, when is his “revelation” as Satan in the flesh? Later, when a mass resurrection occurs and Antichrist also appears to “rise from the dead” through the indwelling of Satan. Antichrist will already be in power and have an empire by that time (pre-trib). Satan actually tries to prevent the Resurrection and catching up of the believers, BTW.
I believe the Scripture teaches that it is the Rapture that is the time that causes the Antichrist’s “revelation.” The Rapture/Resurrection does not, nor does the start of the tribulation itself, cause Antichrist’s coming to power, for he must come to power some time before then. This is the part that most Christians do not believe, which I believe is a big mistake. It is the fact that this final Antichrist comes to power miraculously before the Tribulation. Again, this should be understood whether one is pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. Antichrist is actually one of the necessary signs of the last days. When the Rapture/Resurrection eventually occurs, I believe the Holy Spirit will no longer hinder evil and will let Satan/Antichrist have supreme rule, and thus Antichrist then attacks and successfully annihilates Christians with all his ability for 3 and 1/2 years.
This gets to my opinion on whether the Church goes through the Tribulation or not. The answer is yes and no. I think understanding Jesus’ warnings and the Olivet discourse is critical here. And I think the majority of Christians misinterpret it. I just heard the late J.Vernon McGee in his old broadcast make a shambles of the Olivet Discourse. I believe that the Olivet Discourse, as well as the letters to the Churches in Revelation, teaches that many within Christian churches will not be ready when He comes (pre-trib) for the Church. Though many believe in Christ and in His Second Coming, Jesus taught that if some refuse to repent, He will come unaware and fight against them. He will cause some in the Church to be cast “into great tribulation”. – Rev.2:22. In other words, His coming for the church is first, followed by Tribulation to those who don’t repent.
So, it is my belief that many in the church will be left to go through the tribulation, like those in the Laodicean church, and other churches. Christ considers them to be part of His church or this letter to them wouldn’t be in the Bible. When the tribulation begins, there will be a great revival among many of those left behind. Though the Holy Spirit no longer hinders evil, He will be very active on behalf of those who call on Him during this time of trial. They will be the great multitude from all over the world that are beheaded for Christ. They are still a part of the church. I believe this period is 42 months and is still part of the “Church Age.” This tribulation of the saints coincides with the “SEALS” in Revelation. By the 7th seal, the tribulation of the saints is over. Then comes the fire, under the Trumpet and Vial judgments. This takes another 7 years. Israel’s “tribulation” occurs within the final 7 years. I believe that there are 10 and 1/2 years between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Shalom Sebastian!
Your statement, that the Holy Spirit will be active in the last 3 1/2 years in the Great Tribulation and that the “so-called” tribulation saints are Christians and belong to the Church is a Post-trib view! You are also right, that the dispensation of grace (Church Age) goes till His second coming. By the 7th seal the Great Tribulation, including the trumpets and vials are over. Because in Rev 6:17 His wrath has come and 19:15 tells us that this happens at His 2. coming, which is after the Great Tribulation ( Rev 11:18 (10:7) at the 7th trump and 16:15-19 at the 7th vial). The 2. coming (Greek parousia) and the Rapture are at the Day of the Lord (2. Th 2:1), which is one day (Zech 14:7) and happens after the Antichrist is revealed (2. Th 2:1-4)’. You are right, that disproofs the imminence of the Rapture, but also Pre- and Mid-trib. Yeshua (Jesus) taught us Post-trib (Mat 24:29-31).
The resurrection is before any Rapture can happen, in fact it is one event and Paul said “we ALL”, that are every believer in Christ, including “tribulation saints” (1. Cor 15:23+24) are transformed in a moment and this happens at His 2.coming after the GT (Rev 20:4-6), the First Resurrection is on the last day (Jn 6:39+40) at His 2. coming and not 7 years before. the Greek word for first resurrection is protos, that is always first and not last, here the first of two resurrections, the next is 1000 years later.
You are also right, that many will be deceived by the AC and fall away, others are thrown into the GT and receive the plagues (Mystery Babylon). They think they are the true church and will see no sorrow (Rev 18:7), but the true church is spiritual Israel, the natural olive-tree. I believe the true Israel of God will escape the GT and will be protected and provided by angels in refugee places (Rev 12).
God bless! Benjamin
I think all true students of prophecy, especially Pre-Trib believers, should read all 5 of Arthur Bloomfield’s books on Bible prophecy.
Whether one agrees with him or not, you should at least be familiar with his teachings. Why?
It is my opinion that he understood the ins and outs, the ups and downs, the complexity and missing pieces
of the prophetic puzzle that almost everyone misses. He was Dispensational, or was, since he passed away in 1980.
He had major differences with the majority of popular dispensational teachings and rightfully so.
Most of the popular dispensational teachers have their timelines messed up and also have many missing and
important events missing from their teachings.
My advice? Stop studying the LaHaye’s, Ice’s and the Lindsey’s of the world and start reading Arthur Bloomfield.
After you’ve read all 5 books, then we can talk. You will thank me later!
Since I have not read this author, I cannot recommend him. Just like anything else, test everything by the word of God and be a Berean.
Hi Mr. Pruitt,
I was very close to discarding the Pre-Trib view in the late 80s/early 90s.
Like many have come to see, there are many popular Dispensational teachings that have problems.
You have noticed many of them and have exposed some of these problems on this site.
I’m still reading through your site.
Since I am trying to be a Berean, I came across a book by Arthur Bloomfield (he was a Methodist Minister) during that time that I had begun to doubt the Pre-Trib view.
What I found was that Bloomfield had better Biblical answers to those dispensational teachings that I believed were off-base, and he proved to my satisfaction,
that the Pre-Trib view is actually the correct view.
In my opinion, he generally has better interpretations on prophecy, more Scriptural backing than all the various interpretations out there that I know of.
I have read “The Rapture Plot”, R.C. Sproul, Gary DeMar etc, and looked at many other various Anti-Pre-Trib views over the past few decades,
including the Historical view of Revelation and the Pre-Wrath view. I find far more problems with those interpretations than I find with dispensational teachings.
Bloomfield, though I don’t believe he is right on everything, still has not been discredited by anything that I have seen since I have studied his books.
In reading through your site so far, every objection you have for rejecting a Pre-Trib Rapture he has an answer to.
You won’t agree with him I’m sure.
But I would love for you to read his books and try to refute what he teaches, because no one since the early 90s has been able to persuade me that he has it wrong.
You won’t find all his arguments in one book though. A person really needs to read all his books to get his complete teachings.
In other words, I would not attempt to discredit his writings until you know and see all he has to backup what he taught.
God Bless!
Hello Mr. Sebastian,
Thank you for your interest in reading my articles. I can understand why you would not be convinced by authors like R.C. Sproul and Gary DeMar. They oppose pre-tribulationism and dispensationalism not on the basis of whether or not the scripture teaches it, but instead they oppose it because it conflicts their agendas. In R. C. Sproul’s case it conflicts with his reform theology. Reform theology pays little to no attention to future predictive prophecy with the exception of those that wish to identify the Pope with the anti-christ. Gary DeMar is a reconstructionist and as such he wants, through the efforts of the Church, to bring about the Kingdom of God on Earth through political and social means. Both of these views would look at pre-tribulationism as being in conflict with their goals. They both adhere to the idea that the Church has replaced Israel, a false idea that makes God a liar, breaking His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Where I come from on this issue is the same view that was shared by the early Church for nearly 300 years. That is what is called historic premillenialism. I reject the amillenialism of the Catholics, Orthodox and many of the reformers, as well as the postmillenialism of the reconstructionists. This is where I find common ground with pre-tribulational dispenstionalists, because they too recognize that having the Church replace Israel spiritualizes what the scripture plainly teaches quite literally. Where pre-tribulationists go off the rails is when they fail to realize that in order to place the rapture before the tribulation they also have to spiritualize the text, because there is not even one passage that affirms the idea, and prior to 1830 it was nearly unheard of.
In summary let me say this, you don’t need to read an anti-pretrib book to reject the prerib rapture. All you have to do is read the scripture itself. History also testifies as to what the early Christians believed, but even without historical confirmation, the scripture itself is sufficient to make it abundantly clear that pre-tribulationism is a myth. Conversely, I should not have to read anyone’s book in order to understand what the scripture says about the end times. For that, I look to the scripture, the witness of the Spirit, and what I observe from history and current events. I’m not inclined to read all the books you mentioned for the following reasons: 1). Arthur Bloomfield is not cited as an authority on dispensationalism or pre-tribulationism by its most ardent supporters. If his arguments carried as much weight as you claim they should, I surely would have heard of him before now. 2). The thesis of my comments in general that it is not necessary to read the works of any so-called prophecy expert to understand what the word of God teaches. 3). I am unwilling to dedicate the time required to read 5 new books by someone I already know I disagree with. However if his writings and arguments advance to a level where numerous Christians are being influenced by him, I may at that point change my mind.
I appreciate your interest, enthusiasm, and civil discourse. If you’d like to discuss any of the biblical points, I would be happy to respond.
Scott Pruitt said… “They both adhere to the idea that the Church has replaced Israel, a false idea that makes God a liar, breaking His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”
This claim is normally used by Dispensationalists in order to promote their Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms theology. We find the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31:34 and fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. On the day of Pentecost Peter addressed those in attendance as “the House of Israel. On that day about 3,000 of “the house of Israel” became a part of the New Covenant Church.
It also ignores Paul’s reference to Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise in Romans 9:6-8 by lumping all Israelites into one group called “Israel”.
Paul also makes it clear in Galatians 3:16 that the promise made to Abraham was made only to Christ, instead of the many seeds.
The Church has not replaced Israel. The Church made up of Israelite and Gentile believers is a fulfillment of Israel of the Promise found in Galatians chapter 3. We inherit the promise made to Abraham through faith in Christ as found in Galatians 3:29.
There is no life for the branches broken off of the Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11. Their only path of salvation is by being grafted back into the Olive Tree. This is the “so” manner of their salvation. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled at Calvary, for all races of people. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church.
I am not defending what Sproul and Demar may teach, since I do not hold to Reformed Covenant Theology.
However, the concepts above are plainly written in scripture.
If we love the Jewish people, they need to hear the Gospel now.
There is no future path of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church.
Hello again Mr. Pruitt,
Well said. I agree with your assessment of Sproul and DeMar.
I understand your hesitancy to read Bloomfield. If I may, I’d like to give you at least some possible reasons on why you should check him out, if that’s alright?
First, one reason he is relatively unknown, even among Dispensationalists, is he had drastically different interpretations in many areas that the average dispensationalist just refused to
accept. I think they ignored Bloomfield because he didn’t teach the “same old, same old,” and therefore, they rejected him. If they even knew of him. I’m sure if he repeated the typical teachings of modern Dispensationalism, he would have been more popular. As you know, being in the minority does not necessarily make one wrong.
When I have debated other dispensational brothers and sisters online on Bloomfield’s beliefs, I usually get “Why should I believe this guy? I never heard of him”. So far, no one has given me what I would consider a legitimate Biblical rebuttal of his teachings. To the few people who agreed to read his books, I have heard more than once, “That was an awesome book!” I always ask them if they can you refute any of his interpretations? They mostly say no, except for maybe disagreeing with some of his theology.
Another reason I believe he deserves to be acknowledged is that he basically took the torch from Joseph A. Seiss, who did have a very popular and significant book called “The Apocalypse,” which was originally published way back in 1900. Bloomfield studied Seiss and improved, and I think, more accurately assessed the prophetic Scripture. But I still believe “The Apocalypse” by Seiss is an excellent book.
One reason I have great respect for Bloomfield is the fact that his books were published in the 50s, 60s and early 70s and are totally relevant today. He understood back then what is going on right now in the world better than many of the present prophecy teachers that are popular today.
He was published by Bethany House, which is a very reputable publisher.
He also had a very good knowledge of history and how important WWI and WWII was to the story of the Jews. He believed that Hitler started “phase one” of a three part process that will eventually bring the Jews to Christ. All of this is found in Scripture.
I would love to share with you specific Biblical points where he departs from popular dispensationalism. We can discuss them and also those things in dispensationalism where you see problems and what his understanding would be on those specific topics.
Hello Mr. Sebastian,
I appreciate your persistence. However the reasons I outlined before have not changed. If anything your recent comments have given me more reason to regard Bloomfield as suspect. The reason being that you associated his teaching as a continuation of the teachings of Joseph Seiss. Joseph Seiss was a dispenstionalist but he was also a proponent of the occult and gnostic heresies regarding pyramidology and astrology. While I have not read Bloomfield’s books, I did research him a little bit following your comments and discovered that at least in one instance his exegesis of OT prophecy contradicted the Apostle James if the following quote is in its proper context:
https://alivingtext.com/arthur-bloomfield-bad-exegesis-22cc776452ae#.d9d10dqcg
Scott Pruitt, I am a missionary/ Bible Prophecy teacher, in ministry since 1963. I need to Correct you on Two issues, as I did not read your whole article, but only down to where you discuss the source of New Testament Text. So let me begin with that Issue. The KJV was in deed translated from the Byzantine GREEK, known as the Textus Receptus, But here is your MISTAKE , The Byzantine GREEK , IS THE MAJORITY TEXT, with over 5,300 MSS of which over 90%, ( 4,860 ) are in agreement with each other.
The Foundation for all other Modern Bibles, is The EGYPTIAN PAPYRII Fraud that came from ALEXANDRIA ,EGYPT, and penned by EUSEBIUS, in 330 A.D. So you demonstrate Zero Knowledge about MSS !!!
Next; The 24 ELDERS, represent the Second Order of Firstfruits, ( as explained in my book;..”THE RAPTURE AND ITS SEVEN DIFFERENT ORDERS”
AVAILABLE AT amazon ) The FOUR LIVING CREATURES, ( the First Order of FIRSTFRUITS, , The Graves that opened in Mt.27:50-53 ) Are on the WELCOMING COMMITTEE in Rev. 4:1-4 , when the 24 ELDERS ( The hinderer in 2.Thess.2:7 ) are removed, ( just before the Antichrist makes his Seven Year Covenant with Israel ) That is Why these TWO GROUPS of FIRSTFRUITS, Are declaring that they are REDEEMED SAINTS from the Earth !!! But the Rest of All that are part of the First Resurrection are not yet “Gathered-in”, and that includes the “First of the Harvest, ( The INNUMERABLE COMPANY Rev.7:9-17, The Third and Last order of the FIRSTFRUITS, The 144,000/ Manchild, Rev. 12:1-5, and Lastly at the Second Advent, ( on the LAST DAY Jn.6:39 ) the Two orders of the DEAD IN CHRIST, and “WE THE LIVING THE ONES SURVIVING”
I perceive you have a ZEAL for the TRUTH, But without Knowlrdge. So do your homework, before you make assertions that are not factual or biblical !
Hello Morgan, Apparently one thing the Lord has not given you in 53 years of ministry is a little humility. With respect to your criticism of my use of the terms; it typically only becomes an issue when dealing with KJV only people, which is not the point of the argument in the first place and for which I included a disclaimer. While I do not consider myself to be an expert in source manuscripts or textual criticism, to say I have “Zero knowledge” of manuscripts is hyperbole in the extreme. I don’t have to be an expert on the subject in order to speak to it, particularly when I’m quoting other scholars in the process.
Next I quote you from your LinkedIn Page:
Wow! Now there’s an unassuming statement (sarcasm intended). So if I’m following you correctly, you alone know how to interpret future predictive prophecy based on your system of 7 orders of the first resurrection for which I’ll need to buy your book on Amazon for only $28.95 with free shipping on Amazon Prime. Then I too can understand all mysteries just as you do. Its a good thing for the Church that you came along to set us all straight after 2000 years of ignorance. I can’t help wanting to draw comparisons between you and Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G White, Charles Taze Russell, John Nelson Darby, and all the others that claimed that all Christians need them and their writings to properly understand the Bible. The big difference is they all had a larger following than you.
I do not perceive that you have a zeal for the truth, but rather your own ego. Lastly, please do me the courtesy of reading the entire article before you decide to bless me with your superior knowledge (so-called).
As expected, You Never addressed the two issues I presented, but rather came back with your Arrogant Opinion of my response.
You are a typical neophyte on this issue of Eschatology and Bible MSS. To call the 50 original copies of Egyptian Papyrii MSS that came down from Eusebius, of which the Vaticanus-B and ‘Sianiticus’ Codex-Aleph together with the Alexandrian, are the most readable extant copies, The MAJORITY TEXT, is such a Flagrant exposure of Ignorance, that Not to point it out, would be almost Criminal.
And your Condescending Arrogant response for me pointing this out, highlights even more your total MSS IGNORANCE
Next your Typical “Brainwashed” comment on “KJV Only-ism” , Proves furthermore, that you have NO IDEA that only the KJV uses the Ben Chajim Masoretic Hebrew, as its Foundation for the Old Testament, And Only the KJV uses the BYZANTINE ‘Koine’ GREEK, as its foundation for the New Testament. All other books called a Bible in English, Use either the Fraudulent SEPTUAGINTA Greek, (that Never Existed BEFORE 250 A.D. in the six Column work called the HEXAPLA, or they use the FRAUD called the “Ben Asher-Westminster-Leningrad Hebrew text , for the Old Testament, and the Corrupt Eusebius “CLASSICAL GREEK” Egyptian Papyrii, for the New Testament.
So you have Demonstrated both your Ignorance and Arrogance in one Fell Swoop, by trying to castigate me for pointing out your stupidity!!!
You are a typical neophyte concerning these issues, and should not even voice your ignorant opinion, as those of us that have understanding in these matters, are bound to call you on the “carpet”. That’s besides the Fact, That you should be ashamed of yourself, for not having enough common sense and humility, to accept correction from an “Elder Minister” in the lord .
And one more Thing Scott, “The Seven different orders”, of the First Resurrection as I present in my book, “THE RAPTURE AND ITS SEVEN DIFFERENT ORDERS” Is the ONLY CORRECT Eschatological presentation of the Doctrine of the First Resurrection, notwithstanding your sarcastic taunting comment. I have to wonder if you are a Born again Christian at all, or just a CALVINIST with a bent for insulting those much more seasoned in ministry than yourself !!!
At one time Benjamin Newton and John Nelson Darby worked together within the Plymouth Brethren movement. After Darby adopted the “Secret Rapture” doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church, Newton would not accept Darby’s new doctrine. Darby then launched a personal attack on Newton.
That same spirit is alive and well today.
Yes Scott, I noticed that Same spirit alive and seemingly Well, in your Condescending and Arrogant response to me, as I am an “elder” in the Lord, correcting your Ignorance on MSS , and the 24 ELDERS who are part of the firstfruits.
The scriptures make it clear that you should not accuse an Elder, But I guess you have proven by your response to be a JERK !!
To Top that, You seem to think that you are suffering for the Lord, by being Corrected. And please Do not make me an object of your Devilish prayers, as Correcting you has nothing to do with me and Self importance, it has everything to do with your IGNORANCE . ARROGANCE, and your inflated Self-Importance.
Morgan, in order for me to take correction from you I would first have to have some modicum of respect for you as a Christian. I don’t. Nothing that you have said to me thus far could be construed as being in any way Christ-like. If anything, you come off merely as a bitter old man with an ax to grind about manuscripts. I’ll admit I’m sarcastic and maybe I’m a jerk too, but I would not presume to be THE authority on eschatology, and you shouldn’t either. Further I can assure you with all sincerity that my prayers for you were not devilish. Nothing would please me more than seeing a lost sheep like yourself approaching God as the Publican instead of as the Pharisee. I am nothing. When you can say that in your heart, there will be hope for you. Until then, rail on.
This comment is not addressed to Scott.
Dear Morgan, your incessant ranting against me is really a waste of time and effort on your part. I’m really not bothered by your false accusations. Its something I expect as a Christian, in fact I expect it to get even worse as the day approaches. To be reproached for the name of Christ is an honor, so thank you. You have now become the object of my pity and my prayers. I hope in Christ that you will be delivered from your inflated sense of self-importance.
Scott, You said, (quote)…”Morgan, in order for me to take correction from you I would first have to have some modicum of respect for you as a Christian. I don’t. ”
Any Rational person, being addressed by a Missionary in ministry for probably as long as you are old, and receiving Factual manuscript correction, as well as Biblical correction on your obvious neophyte position on the 24 ELDERS and The FOUR LIVING CREATURES, ( that are not the same as those Seraphim in Ezekiel, with six wings rather than four wings of those in Ezekiel, Yet their Testimony clarifying that they ARE REDEEMED SAINTS, and part of those who encamped around the Four sides of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, as per Numb.2, and were represented by the four “leading tribes” Judah , Reuben, Ephraim, and Dan, whose “ensigns (Flags) were a Lion, a Jumping Calf, a Face of a Man, and an Eagle ) …Would have enough common Sense and Decency, to realize that they need to respect and accept the correction given on the Merits of the Facts Alone, besides the length in ministry !!!
But Not You !! As your Overblown Ego took over,( like a crazy Donald Trump,) and you exposed yourself , as an ARROGANT CONDESCENDING JERK !! ( which it seems in your last response, you have admitted to !!! )
My name is Greg Lauer, and I happened across your site the other day and noticed you quoted a passage from an article I wrote last year. I looked over your piece, and although I completely disagree, I am honored to be quoted therein. Thank you for quoting me accurately, because I still stand by what I wrote.
I wondered if you would share your thoughts on a couple of points:
1. Why would the 24 elders be wearing “stephanos,” or the type of crown promised to the Church?
2. Why is Christ no longer sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for us as our High Priest in Rev. 5, at a time when we would presumably be most in need of such intercession, if post-tribulationalism is to be believed?
3. The Bible calls Church Age saints (and I will continue using that term no matter what anyone says) kings and priests. The basic function of a priest is to be an intermediary between sinful men on earth and a holy God in heaven, and I believe that’s *exactly* the type of function the raptured Church is performing in Rev. 4 for Tribulation saints on earth. If not, then when, where, and for whom do we perform priestly duties?
Thanks.
P.S. If anyone would care to read the entire article of mine that you quoted from, it is here:
http://alittlestrength.com/articles/2015/1505-gang.htm
Hello Greg,
Happy to answer your questions.
1).
Stephanos: From an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: – crown.
It is the context that determines the ultimate meaning of a word or phrase that represent a term. In the case of stephanos, there are 18 occurrences of this word in the New Testament. It is apparent that the use of the word is different according to the context. In Matt 27:29, Mark 15:17, and John 19:2 & John 19:5 it refers to the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. In Phil 4:1 Paul says that other believers are his stepahnos using it as a metaphor. Paul uses the same word again in the same way, and then adds that we receive it at Christ’s coming in 1 Thes 2:19. There are 3 occurrences where it is clear from the context that stephanos refers to the believer’s crown and those occur in 1 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, and 1 Pet 5:4. After that It appears in Revelation. The first to instances also seem to refer to the believer’s crown in Rev 2:10 & Rev 3:11. After that, the 24 elders are introduced as having stephanos in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:10. In Rev 6:2 it is the antichrist that wears a stephanos. Later in Rev 9:7 the locusts have a stephanos. Then the woman in Rev 12:1, and finally by an a mighty angel in Rev 14:14. The use of word stephanos in and of itself does not equate identity with the the Church. In some cases it does refer to the believers crown, but that is determined based on context. The context of Rev 4 says that these stephanos are worn by the 24 elders. To make the 24 elders the Church by virtue of the stephanos is not justified any more than saying the antichrist is the Church because he is wearing a stephanos in Rev 6:2.
2).
The scripture says in Heb 7:25 that Christ always lives to make intercession for the saints. There is nothing in Rev 4-5 that indicates that His intercession has ceased so this to me is a non-issue. If Jesus is sitting or standing in heaven, it does not in my opinion have any bearing on the timing of the rapture.
3).
The distinction between “Church age” saints and “tribulation” saints is a distinction that is not made in scripture. It is a theological invention and construct that has no Biblical support. Also the Church being declared Kings and Priests occurs in Rev 1:6 and is a declaratory statement in the past tense, meaning we do not have to go to heaven before we become Priests and Kings. We will rule with Him when he has put all His enemies beneath His feet. Our priestly ministry begins as soon as we are born again. We have been called ministers of reconciliation, meaning it is our mission to be intermediaries between God and men by preaching the gospel and teaching His word. So our priestly duties are already in effect. Besides all that, Jesus is our Great High Priest and He does not need us to be in heaven praying for those on earth, He is fully capable of that Himself. And besides all that, pretribbers generally assert that the Church in heaven is having a big party during the tribulation, not praying for those suffering in the midst of it.
Greg, thank you for taking the time to comment. I hope I’ve given you a few things to think about.
Thank you for your response. Just a couple of comments:
I likewise do not believe the wearing of stephanos proves the 24 elders are the Church. No one single thing does. But to me it’s one more element of a preponderance of evidence that points squarely to the Church.
I don’t consider the fact that Jesus is opening the seals of judgment in Revelation 5 to be a “non-issue.” It’s not just a simple issue of Him standing or sitting, either. He is preparing to assume His role as King. I understand that post-tribbers have no choice but to dismiss the obvious fact that Jesus is no longer interceding for us in Revelation 5, but I certainly don’t see it as a “non-issue.”
If you believe the distinction between Church Age saints and Tribulation saints is just something pre-tribbers made up, I’d like to get your take on one verse.
In John 20, Jesus gives Thomas a gentle rebuke for his refusal to believe, and in one sentence gives us a wonderful characterization of the Church:
“…blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
(John 20:29b)
So…what have we not seen? Same thing Thomas didn’t see: tangible proof of God’s power and presence. By the end of Revelation 6, the Tribulation is in full swing and it is clear from verses 16 and 17 that people recognize what is happening is the wrath of God. In other words, people on earth during the Tribulation are going to see plenty, and they will *know* it is God.
I don’t see how people square “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” with people who come to faith in Christ while they see the judgments of the Tribulation falling around them.
Your take on John 20:29 must be different from my own, because in my mind this one little verse renders the post-trib Rapture theologically awkward and improbable, if not impossible.
So, what *is* your take on John 20:29?
I appreciate your comment that our function as priests starts the day we are born again. I agree, and hadn’t consciously thought of it in that sense. But…I still believe there is more to it than that.
Hello Greg,
Thank you for your comments. Please understand this is not personal, and I’m not trying to correct for the sake of ego, or arguing for argument’s sake. I’m putting in this disclaimer because I take issue with some of the points you tried to make with your response. I believe you you are a sincere believer in Jesus, but I do not think your comments should stand unchallenged.
In your response you stated:
It’s good that you admit that the use of the word stephanos does not in and of itself prove that the 24 elders represent the Church. I went to great lengths to make that point with you, and I think you fair-mindedly conceeded that. However you were originally trying to make the point that the stephanos worn by the 24 elders was the same as the believers crown. As to the preponderance of evidence, pointing to the 24 elders representing the Church. I refer back to the thesis of my article giving the many reasons that there is insufficient evidence to make that claim, based on textual discrepancies and the opinions of dispensational scholars. The only thing I believe we can say with certainty about the 24 elders is that they are the 24 elders. Anything beyond that is speculation and reading into the text (eisegesis). I also believe that whether or not the 24 elders are redeemed or not is immaterial as it relates to the timing of the rapture. Because being redeemed in and of itself does not by extension imply that they represent all believers as “the” Church, but could just as easily be a subset of the Church (which is more likely considering the context). But for the sake of argument, lets say they are redeemed. Do you have an explanation as to why the four living creatures (who obviously do not represent the Church but angelic beings) are able to sing with the 24 elders that they (the 4 living creatures) are themselves redeemed as well as the 24 elders? In my mind this is absurd because the scripture is very clear that Christ did not die for the angels that sinned, and those that did not sin need no redeemer. For this reason on the textual argument I lean to the them and they rendering vs the we and us of those verses.
Next you said:
You missed my point that Jesus never stops interceding as confirmed in Heb 7:25. As long as Jesus is interceding, it is my contention that Jesus’ opening of the seals is a non-issue with respect to the timing of the rapture. Merely asserting that you think it is obvious that Christ has ceased to intercede for believers does not make it so. Nothing in the text indicates that Christ’s ministry of intercession has ceased nor have I found such a claim in any Bible commentaries that I have read. Thankfully I might add, because anyone that is a Christ follower in the midst of the great tribulation is in even more need of His intercession.
The last point you made attempting to make a distinction between so-called Church-Age Saints from Tribulation Saints using John 20:29 is the most reaching distinction that I have ever heard. I’m curious if this was your idea or if you read it from someone else. By this logic, you would have to exclude the witnesses of Christ’s resurrection as being part of the Church-Age saints because they had seen the risen Lord. Otherwise you are making a false distinction. Classic dispensational theology places the birth of the Church in Acts 2 and does not limit it to those who came to faith by hearing only.
The points you are trying to make to justify a belief in pre-tribulationism are easily refutable with simple exegesis and logic. Rather than searching so hard to find proof of a doctrine you already believe, I suggest you simply read the scripture on its face and allow it to inform your understanding. The second coming is one of the most well documented teachings in the scriptures and supported by the writings of the early Church and all of the creeds, arguably as much as the resurrection and more than the virgin birth. You do not find the idea of pre-tribulationism anywhere in history until the 19th century.
Again, thank you for reaching out. I hope you will reconsider your position in light of what I have shared with you. For your sake and for those you influence as we see the day approaching. God bless.
I can appreciate your comments to an extent, but then you go and say something like this:
“You do not find the idea of pre-tribulationism anywhere in history until the 19th century.”
This is simply factually untrue. How many more times does this lie this have to be refuted? This is the sort of thing that drives pre-tribbers insane.
I guess I should have seen it coming, because every conversation with post-tribbers I have ends this way, and there is no point continuing. The only difference in this case is the fact that you didn’t call me any insulting names. That’s unusual in my experience with post-tribbers, and I thank you for that…but I think we’re done here. Thank you for your time.
I apologize if I came across a little bit dismissive in my last post. Forgive me. You’ve been great, Scott, and I appreciate the fact that you argue from the Word. I may disagree with certain points, but that’s life in the biblical lane.
I think that’s why I was so disappointed when you made the comment about there being no mention of the pre-trib Rapture before the nineteenth century.
This is precisely the sort of thing that finally made me swear off arguing with post-tribbers. It’s a dash of the same old baseless bluster that I have grown accustomed to, and was happy to see you were avoiding up to that point.
As soon as you say something like that, in my mind it’s like “Oh brother…here we go again.”
So, what’s next? The pre-trib Rapture was concocted by a couple of rogue Jesuit priests?
Oh wait, I know. The pre-trib Rapture came from the psychotic ramblings of a 15-year-old Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald in 1830, after which some nefarious ne’er-do-well named John Nelson Darby jumped all over it, wrapped a few verses of Scripture around it, and began selling the fanciful notion to wimps within the Church who desperately wanted to fly away at the first wisp of persecution.
It’s a great story filled with skullduggery and intrigue, but it’s YouTubity of the first magnitude that has been so thoroughly refuted that the fact that you’re more than happy to continue believing it is telling. And what it’s telling me is that it was a mistake for me to get tangled up in yet another pre v. post debate. For a few brief moments I thought it might be different this time, but no. It’ll never change.
Worst of all, it squelches my interest in listening to anything else you have to say about the subject.
So, I’ll bow out with this: I will never believe in a post-trib Rapture. Never. Period. People can give me fancy, high-sounding scriptural arguments until the cows fall out of a taxi at 4 a.m., but I don’t buy it. You may as well tell me you’ve got a really swell 10-page mathematical proof that 1+1=3.
One of the primary reasons I will never buy it is because the post-trib Rapture theory, carried to its logical extreme, makes God out to be a liar and a welcher. And it makes me angry when people call the God I serve a liar and a welcher.
Then again, maybe I’m wrong. (After all, as a pre-tribber, I’ve never cracked open a Bible, right?) Let’s say I am for the sake of argument. I’ll believe in a post-trib Rapture under one condition:
That it happens.
If the Antichrist shows up and desecrates the rebuilt temple and initiates the mark of the beast and we’re all running around trying (and largely failing) to avoid getting beheaded and the sun and moon go dark and the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky and we get taken up to be with the Lord, have the marriage supper of the Lamb at a celestial Denny’s and come right back with Him to earth the same day, I’ll be the rootinest, tootinest post-tribber of ’em all. I’ll get me a T-shirt that says “Proud to be a Post-Toastie!” I’ll happily don a dunce cap and write on the board fifty kazillion times “I FELL FOR THE PRE-TRIB FIB.”
Until that day comes, however, I will remain convinced of the truth of a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Thanks, Scott. See you then.
Sorry, Greg. Pre-tribism is not taught ANYWHERE in GOD’S Word no matter how much hermeneutical contortions one must go through to support it. I believed and was taught that heresy for almost the first thirty years of my life until I began to see serious contradictions between what men had taught me and GOD’S Word truly said. Once I simply allowed The Holy Spirit to teach me, holding to pre-tribism was no longer possible. At any rate, I know for pre-tribbers, your position is a fanatical dogma, a non-negotiable “fundamental” of your “faith”. I would encourage you to take GOD’S Word and just simply ask The LORD to show you Himself ALONE what His Word says. If you don’t, your pre-tribism is going to leave you disappointed, disillusioned, and worst of all, unprepared to face the horrors that are coming.
Dear Greg,
In fairness I should have stuck to the topic of the 24 elders for the purpose of this discussion. I do not concede the statement that I made about the historicity of pre-tribulationism, but in this case it was inappropriate to introduce it since it was not the topic of the article and you had not appealed to history when you were attempting to make the case for the 24 elders representing the raptured Church. I too become annoyed when discussing these things, and the person taking the opposing view introduces something new before the first point(s) have been sufficiently debated. For that I apologize. Perhaps in the future when I write a new article with the historicity of pre-tribulationism being the point of contention, we can have a civil discussion about it as we did with the 24 elders. Thank you again for your comments.
God bless.
There are many passages that clearly say that the rapture will be before the Tribulation, but most of them require you to cross-reference two or more passages.
For instance, Zephaniah 2:1-3 says that Israel will be returned before the Tribulation, and then the rapture is in verse 3. Ezekiel 39:25-29 says that Israel will be gathered AFTER the Gog/Magog war, meaning that this war is a Church-Age war which will occur before the final gathering of Israel, and the Rapture.
Isaiah 27:12-13 says that the Great Trumpet will be blown at the time the last remnants of Israel are returning. This is the “Last Trump” that Paul was referring to in I Corinthians 15:52.
Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation, since that was a revelation reserved for John, which wasn’t given until several years after Paul’s death.
The best pre-Tribulation rapture passage is actually from Isaiah 26. Here we have the resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed by the rapture, and then the Tribulation, in the exact order;
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The rapture of the Church is God’s wake-up call for the people of Israel, and the only reason why they will be made jealous! They have not been jealous to date, because they have not seen God do something good for the Church, but when the rapture occurs, they will know they have been left behind!
“Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation, since that was a revelation reserved for John, which wasn’t given until several years after Paul’s death.”
The quote above makes the assumption that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John were getting their information from two different sources. The 7th trumpet is the “last” trumpet in the Book of Revelation. Based on Revelation 11:18, it is the time of the judgment of the dead. In 2nd Tim. 4:1 we find that Christ will judge both the living and the dead at His return.
The New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, spoken by Christ at the Last Supper at Matthew 26:28 and fulfilled at the Cross was accepted by 3,000 of the “house of Israel” at Acts 2:36, on the day of Pentecost.
There is no path of salvation outside of the “everlasting” (Hebrews 13:20) New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 8:6-13, 12:24
The Church is not Plan B.
It is the only plan, until the Second Coming of Christ.
It is the fulfillment of the Promise given to Abraham.
Galatians 3:16, 29
Dan, Thank you for your comment! It is always my hope that when someone comes here to defend pre-tribulationism that they will attempt to do so with Biblical arguments instead of appeals to emotion or statements like, “Christ would not beat His bride,” or “the Holy Spirit revealed it me so I know it’s true,” Etc. Having said that, allow me to disagree with your interpretations with valid reasons for doing so.
First let’s look at Zep 2:1-3. You have already admitted that God is speaking to Israel in this passage so your conclusion that vs 3 is a reference to the rapture is invalid for 3 reasons. 1) Dispensationalists and pre-tribulationists by extension generally insist that is improper exegesis to miss the distinction between the Church and Israel. Since this passage is specifically speaking of Israel, by your own rules of interpretation it would be improper to say that vs. 3 is a reference to the rapture of the Church. Otherwise you would be guilty of replacement theology, which is what pretribbers often accuse others of when their biblical interpretations are challenged. 2) The context in which vs 3 appears is speaking of the day of the Lord which is a time of sudden destruction when Jesus returns to rule as King, not 7 years of great tribulation, apostasy, false prophets and antichrist which all precede the day of the Lord. 3) Nothing in the text indicates that being hidden from “The Lord’s Anger,” is equal to a rapture; pretrib or otherwise. If it were the rapture, (which I do not believe it is) the context here puts it in a post-tribulational context because it occurs when Jesus comes to judge the world.
Next Eze 39:25-29. You’re going way off the reservation here when it comes to what the vast majority of pre-tribulationists believe because by your interpretation the pretrib rapture is not imminent. Most pretribbers teach that no signs need to be fulfilled before the rapture. You are saying the opposite. Also Israel has been gathered and continues to gather in the land. The idea of Church-Age is not a Biblical construct, it is man-made and of recent origin. Again there is nothing in the passage that remotely suggests or implies the rapture.
With respect to 1 Cor 15:52 I’m in partial agreement with you in that when Paul said the “last trump,” he was not referencing the book of Revelation because it had not been written yet. However if this is the trump that Paul is speaking of, the context in both passages do not necessitate a rapture before the tribulation.
On to Isa 26. Actually the order here is tribulation, resurrection, day of wrath. Vss 16-18 deal with the tribulation as alluded to by Jesus in Matt 24. Then the resurrection in 19-20, and the second coming/day of the Lord in vs 21.
With respect, your conclusions are invalid. And your interpretations of scripture do not align with the text, nor do they align with the vast majority of pretrib teachers because of your rejection of the pretrib doctrine of imminence.
Another great response, Scott, to pre-trib error. It cannot be sustained on any point by God’s Word anywhere!
I believe that you have misunderstood J. MacArthur’s statements. He is saying that the church HAS BEEN RAPTURED and that it is not mentioned because there is no need to speak anymore to the church because there is no longer guidance needed for her.
Dear Mrs. Bradley,
In fairness, I do not think that I have misunderstood John MacArthur’s statements. Instead, I’m pointing out that it is not logically consistent to make both claims. Therefore notable pre-tribulationists tend to lean one way or another when it comes to saying who the 24 Elders are. By his own words, John MacArthur has agreed with both arguments, but if one agrees with both, logically one is nullified. They cannot both be true. Unfortunately, John MacArthur is teaching something far worse than pre-tribulationism, although the two teachings are related. John MacArthur has taught that a person can take the mark of the beast during the tribulation and still be saved. This is doubly damnable because first he says Christians will not have to endure the tribulation, and second the greatest test of allegiance between God or Satan, MacArthur claims is not something God will hold people accountable for. He specifically said during a Q&A at his church on the end times:
Contrast that teaching with what is plainly spelled out in the word of God.
Rev 14:9-12
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus
Rev 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Notice something else here? The first ones to be resurrected are those that refused to take the mark of the beast, and Paul made it clear that the dead are raised before the rapture. See 1 Thesssalonians 4:16-17
Jesus said the greatest sign of the end times is spiritual deception in His name. This is one of many examples of that deception. By this we know we are in the last days.
Being a fundamental Baptist, I find it humorous when I hear preachers within my own church rightful declare that there is no universal church; that the local church is autonomous. They say that until they get to Revelation chapter four; at which time they turn Catholic and state that God’s Word omitting mention of a universal church going through tribulation is evidence that a universal church was raptured. God’s Word says it right when he says that the AC will make war with the saints.
Perhaps 12 (elders) from the tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles?
I do not belive in pre-trib fyi.
“Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:13 KJB. What part of “GLORIOUS” don’t pre-trbbers understand?
There is one verse which proves the Church is present during the tribulation period.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Blood Covenant Grace of Jesus Christ.
This verse destroys the claim that the Age of Grace ends with a Pretribulational removal of the Church.
This is supported by Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, Romans 11:27, Galatians 3:16, 29, Hebrews 8:6-13, 12:24 and 13:20.
There is no future way of salvation outside of the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church, made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together into one tree Olive Tree. Romans 9:6-8
My wife and I support Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah Ministries, because the Church is the only way of salvation until the Second Coming of Christ. We need to make sure the branches broken off are grafted back into the Olive Tree.
Romans 11:23
The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant “now” in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.
The churches are told to “overcome” at the beginning of the book. What are we to overcome if not all those things recorded in the book, namely, the beast and the false prophet? Those who overcome will inherit all those things mentioned at the end of the book. We overcome by taking up our cross, loving not the things of this world. The martyrs under the altar are definately the church, since they died for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. In his epistle, John tells us those who hold the testimony of Jesus are those who believe.
You are correct. There is only one Olive Tree, made up of the chosen remnant of Israel, with Gentiles grafted in to become part of the Commonwealth of Israel, one new Man in Christ. And God is able to graft the broken branches back into the Tree, if they do not persist in unbelief. The Church is not a parenthesis in the midst of God’s dealings with Israel. The salvation of Israel does not happen later. It happens now. Today, if you here His voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion. Now is the day of salvation, not only for Gentiles, but for Jews. Those saved, Jew and Gentile, during the time of tribulation will become part of the Olive Tree, Temple, Body and Bride.
A few days ago I received a letter from “Jews for Jesus” highlighting their concerns about the Vatican’s stance on not taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.
Their response can be found at… j4j.co/Vatican
The Vatican’s stance seems to be that since the Jews are already “God’s People,” they don’t need to be saved by faith in Jesus.
Amen…and Amen!!
Amen,Brother!