Over the years since I have been a Christian I have had many people try to persuade me that the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.
For those that don’t know what that means, I’ll offer a brief explanation. Among Christians that hold that the Bible accurately records the past and has predicted and continues to predict the future (I happen to be one of those). There are a majority of believers that hold to the idea that at some point in the future Jesus is going to return to the Earth to judge the world and establish His rule over the Earth for a thousand years. In addition to this belief there is also another belief that prior to His return, God is going to bring terrible judgment upon the world in a similar way that He judged the Egyptians during the time of Moses in the book of Exodus. This period of judgement is believed to last for a total of 7 years before Jesus actually returns, and this 7 year period is often referred to as the Tribulation or Great Tribulation. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a belief that prior to this Tribulation, true Christians that are alive at that time will be unpredictably and instantaneously caught up from the Earth by God, their bodies transformed into immortal bodies and that during the 7 years of judgement and suffering on Earth, Christians will be in Heaven being spiritually married to Jesus and will be enjoying a 7 year feast.
It is the teaching that Christians will not be present during the Tribulation that I take issue with. When dealing with this subject I will be appealing to the Bible to make my case. Some of the examples will be parallel to other stories or types from scripture and others are declarative statements on the subject. All will demonstrate the the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is built upon weak presuppositions that can easily be refuted.
Reason 1:
One of the main arguments that I have heard to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that a loving God would not allow His children to suffer through such a difficult time.
This argument is foolish. There are numerous examples in both the Old and New Testaments of people that suffered to the glory of God as testimony to those who have gone before and those who will come after us. I think of Job who through no fault of his own suffered terribly while his “friends” rather than showing him sympathy falsely said that Job was suffering for the wrongs he had committed. But in the end he was vindicated and God blessed him greatly. Job did not know it but it was actually God who was vindicated and Satan was defeated.
The book of Hebrews gives a list of heroes from the Old Testament that describes how they endured suffering by faith. These were given as examples to us.
But lets move to the New Testament. Did the Father love Jesus? Of course He did, but Jesus was crucified and then raised to glory. John the Baptist, beheaded. Steven, stoned to death. The Apostles, stoned, imprisoned, tortured, destitute, murdered.
The early Church was persecuted beyond measure. Parents were made to watch their children be murdered right in front them unless they renounced their faith in Jesus. They were covered in pitch, tied to poles and set on fire to entertain the Roman rulers. They were fed alive to lions and bears in front of cheering crowds. They hid in burial tunnels beneath the city of Rome.
And history is replete with these examples to this very day. If you are raised a Muslim in a Muslim country and become a Christian, often you will be put to death. The Communists have murdered countless Christians because they dare to believe that God is greater than the State.
So let me ask you, does God not love those who have suffered for His Name? That is a rhetorical question. Of course He does. So to say that God will exempt Christians from suffering because we are His Bride is not consistent with the rest of the Bible. Instead we should say as Job did, “Though He slay me, yet will I hope in Him”
Reason 2:
Exodus: A parallel to the coming of God’s Judgement and Deliverance. Moses himself said that God was going to send someone after him that was like him, speaking of Jesus. Pharaoh held God’s people in slavery for generations but the time came when God said enough, I will judge those who oppressed My People. He sent Moses to stand before Pharaoh telling him to repent, and each time Pharaoh ultimately refused. So God sent terrible plagues on the land of Egypt, very similar to the plagues mentioned in the book of Revelation. In Exodus God made a distinction between His people and the people of Egypt when it came to how the plagues affected them, but still they remained in Egypt as God’s judgement rained down.
It was after the plagues and judgments that God caught up His people and took them out of Egypt, but only those who were covered by the blood of the Passover lamb. When Pharaoh pursued them God Himself took Pharaoh and his army and drowned them in the depths of the sea. In the same way, the book of Revelation states that after God’s judgement and deliverance he binds Satan for a thousand years casting him into the abyss. Sound familiar? It was after that that God literally dwelt in the midst of his people. In the same way when we are caught up to be with God we shall always be with Him. These are the things Paul said we should comfort one another with. When do we need comfort? When we are suffering.
Reason 3:
The Bible explicitly states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. After this resurrection we are told that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what we refer to as the rapture. But when does the resurrection take place? The scripture clearly answers this question. At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues. I have dealt with this topic in depth in other posts.
Why Am I Writing This?
It’s not because I want to pick a fight. Pre-Tribulationism is a potentially dangerous false teaching. Why? Because it exempts us from suffering and at the same time teaches that a God of love will not allow His children to suffer. As we draw nearer to the return of Jesus our faith must be able to withstand whatever may come because we are told that many will fall away from the faith. Jesus even said “When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the Earth?” May He not say that of us. Consider our brethren in lands hostile to the Gospel and pray that we will have the fortitude to stand with them when our time of testing comes. Amen.
Scott, one of the biggest traps ever set by the devil is the pre-tribulation teaching. Millions will take the mark and be sentenced to Hell because they were told they would not be here when that took place. They will tell themselves this cannot be it because they told me I would not be here when the mark comes on the scene. We have to stop kicking the can down the road and realize we are here. Wishful thinking has created a lot of false teaching.
Well….there it is….possibly the most ignorant argument I’ve heard to date against pre tribulation thought.
I am indeed stunned at the hate, the anger, and the vitriol that rolls out here on this forum against anyone who loves Jesus but has a different understanding of His return.
It is ego, and arrogance on a level I can’t understand, and it is YOU who have surely driven thousands from faith in Jesus Christ with the “I’m right” and you’re wrong evangelism. Shame on you…all of you who purport to be “experts” In Christ’s love, grace, mercy, and righteousness!
I pray that all of you come to a saving knowledge of Christ’s love for EVERYONE who calls upon Him.
Dude—you’re hilarious! Regarding hate, anger and vitriol—what comes off your keyboard is ten times worse than what anybody else has written. In fact, you can’t counter any of the arguments for the Post-Tribulation Rapture, and you know it. So all you can do is insult, and yell and spread poison—it seems to be all you know.
And you say you love Jesus—but you appear to be the one who can’t stand anyone who has a different understanding of His return. Ego and arrogance? If we don’t spout the same tripe you want everyone to believe, it’s because we must have ego and be arrogant? Now who’s the arrogant egoist? No one’s taken in by your posturing, Greg.
Do you think you can win an argument just by shouting down everybody else? I suppose so—you have no other way of making your point. You sound like Jacob’s uncle Laban in Genesis 31:43, who when he couldn’t refute Jacob’s charges of all the times his uncle had cheated him, cried out in frustration—“These daughters are my daughters, and these children are my children, and these cattle are my cattle, and all that thou seest is mine:”
Your postings are like the impotent cursing of a double amputee, jealous and envious of all those who are still healthy and young enough to run. May God keep you from choking on your own bile.
So you think Scott has driven thousands away from Faith in Christ? Considering there have been only 250 postings on his site I strongly doubt he’s had that much effect on Christians—certainly not on those whose Faith is far stronger than yours—you, who can’t endure an opinion even slightly different from your own. And “I’m right and you’re wrong?” The Truth of Scripture is not a matter of multiple choice. There is truth. And there is lying.
And once you yourself come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ—you can instruct us in what, we so evidently are greatly lacking in!
I would suggest you meditate on Proverbs 11:9—“ An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.”
Thank you unrequited confirmation.
I have never read a reply filled with more hatred and loathing.
And I’m on Facebook!
You take care and look me up when you get to the other side.
It is so true… many Christin people told me they will take anything (even the mark of the beast) as if they are still on earth, the marks are NOT from the beast! They are supposed to be rapture before the marks they said!
The slaughter of God fearing people for their faith never stopped. Rome, Islam, Roman Catholicism and Nazi Germany have all done the deed, as have many tyrants, some known and some not so well known, for political power, like the current leader of N Korea.
Islam (Boko Haram) kills dozens of Christians in Nigeria every day. The Tribulation has been going on from before Christ. Daniel and his friends were rescued from Satan when they refused to bow to him. Sometimes you live to be old and sometimes you don’t. The only pass the current Church gets is being the woman in Rev 12 who is taken by the wings of a great eagle to a wilderness for 2500 years out of the reach of Satan.
There is more than enough work to do just now to rescue the perishing and care for the dying, as the song says.
What this means if there is NO pre tribulation rapture then the Body of Christ will have to embrace the Antichrist face to face. The Body of Christ will have a choice to take the Mark or be slaughtered. Most of the Body of Christ will NOT survive the Great Tribulation because our reliance upon the Holy Spirit to endure tribulation. In this Great Tribulation time ALL who believe on Christ will have to depend upon their own self will and own strength to endure in their faith. The believers in that time will have to see the most horrible sex and violence especially in Revelation 9 to watch the wrath of God and be exposed to this and many other types of judgements of God and horrible disasters. This means the Bride of Christ in large part will not survive. ONLY self willed people of faith will make it by the skin of their teeth having seen the desolation, destruction and perversity of evil. At the end Israel will NOT be in existence. Jesus Christ will have to find another place on earth to establish His reign.
Paul, I suggest you re-read Matthew 24. It is a warning to believers so that they do not fall away. Also, you are deceived by thinking that the Holy Spirit would abandon believers during the Great Tribulation. Instead, believers will take comfort in the word of God and His Spirit that indwells them.
Your false presuppositions are blinding you to the truth.
Scott,
I ask you to list one time that GOD poured out His wrath and did not save the righteous.
You can quote scripture all day long and as we all know the same scripture you quote for no pre trib will be quoted by another for pre trib.
But ask yourself about the nature of God, for God does not change, and He has in fact saved the righteous each and every time He has poured out HIS wrath.
Suffering on this Earth, nor persecution on this Earth is God’s wrath and absolutely cannot be equated with what has been and what is to come as it relates to God’s wrath.
In Christ Jesus one is in fact righteous, blameless, and without stain. The very notion that God would leave the righteous behind to endure that which He has ordained since the dawn of time for the wretched unbelievers is downright ridiculous.
Jesus warns over and over, as does Paul that we should not be found sleeping that day.
If we’re in the midst of a tribulation how could any believer be “sleeping”!? It’s insanity.
It is also a fact that even Jesus does not know the day, the hour, or the minute of His return, yet He knows EXACTLY the day of His return after the tribulation, as do we as it is clear as day spelled out in the Word. The Bible says, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command…” The post trib Jesus sends angels to reap the harvest. It also says His return will be “as the days of Noah.” People had plenty of warning and time to get right, but in the end the rains came suddenly and forcefully while the righteous who endured and believed were in fact spared.
I’ve honestly never understood the confusion.
There’s an old saying, “He who frames the question wins the debate.” Your entire premise is logically indefensible. Let’s examine your flawed premises.
I could go on dealing with the remainder of your faulty premises, but believe this is sufficient to demonstrate that your questions and statements are built on a foundation of sand.
Scott—very good points. In fact, what you said about the Plagues of Egypt actually serves to support the Post-Tribulation Rapture, as a type.
In Exodus 8:22-23 God says—“And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.” This was after the first three plagues. This means that the Israelites had to suffer (to some degree) the Nile turning to blood and barfing up frogs, and the the land bringing forth lice.
But after that point none of the plagues were able to touch the Hebrews. The final seven plagues of Egypt spared the israelites. Just so, at the end of time, the Last Seven Plagues of Revelation 16 will not touch the believers who yet are alive in the Earth. And after the Final Plague of Egypt, came the Exodus, when the Children of Israel departed from the land of their oppression. Just so shall it be for the believers. The Final Plague of Revelation 16:17—“And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.” This is the third scenario of Christ’s return (the first and second are at the opening of the Sixth Seal, and the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet). The Book of Revelation is not a linear account. Though John reports the events in the order he wittnessed them, he did not witness them in the order they occurred on Earth.
I just want to say that if whoever dismissed the idea of pre-Trib rapture then they will be like the 5 virgins who are not prepared and ran out of oil. I believe in Pre-tri rapture for many reasons, not because some preacher filled my head as one of the comments stated. If the rapture does not come before the Trib, I will simply believe that I misunderstood and it will not affect my faith. But if people aren’t ready, they will miss it. That would be sad. And I would hate to be a person who wrote an article which persuaded them it was true.
Also you might recall that God rescued Noah and his family from the destruction of the world.
As for the comments about it not being fair that people have been persecuted and the church should not get out of it, ,missionaries are being persecuted. And just because I have not had my head chopped off because of being a Christian, there are other forms of persecution. And those people who have and will die, their reward will be more crowns than I shall receive.
The five virgins are Believers who were not ready and lost their faith. They did not make it. Matthew 24:45 – 25:46. Four stories which all say the same thing – emphasis is on those who were not ready. Could finish with – and they lived unhappily ever after. Jesus was telling these stories two twelve men who had been with him for three years i.e. Believers. Why is he telling Believes that they could wind up in Hell? Because they can.
Noah was saved by obeying God, he was ready. But he was no taken out of the word.
You are correct, whether you believe in Pre or Post Trib Rapture has no affect on your salvation.
One may believe a lie, honestly thinking it is the truth. But if you examine the reasons that men and women gravitate toward lies, it starts becoming clear that they are not as innocent. Why is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as popular as it is? Well, since it promises that one doesn’t have to suffer, the answer seems pretty obvious. Now I don’t like the idea of suffering more than any body else, but I’m not going to lie and say the Scripture promises a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, just because I’m a coward.
One of the “defenses” of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, is that there is supposedly no mention of the Church in the Book of Revelation. So folks make the assumption that it must be because the Church has been raptured. Such a deal! They embrace this comforting lie.
What they don’t embrace is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:9-10—“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.” Jesus spoke of a universal persecution and apostasy. Not as comforting a thought. And that (and no other reason) is why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is so popular.
And without exception, those who believe in this deception never dig very deeply into the Scriptures. Their Biblical exegesis is as shallow as their Faith. For Jesus spoke of such people in Matthew 13:20-21—“But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”
And why are they so shallow? Jesus answered that in verse 15—“For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
So it is very important what one believes. It could indeed affect one’s salvation.
What a lovely and wholly Christian sentiment.
The only reason to believe in a rapture is cowardice?
Huh…and what a brave little soldier you are sir!
Mean spirited, ego maniacal, but ever so brave as well.
The very same scriptures used to defend a post trib rapture are the very same verses used to defend a pre trib rapture and dozens upon dozens of Biblical scholars, more verses than you, have come to equally frustrated conclusion. This fight will never end until arrogant men like you put aside their ego and let it go.
Are you winning souls to Christ with your angry rhetoric? No! You’re not….so ask yourself….exactly what is your motivation? Your deeper than thou faith? LMAO! Nope…it is ego….arrogance.
So go forth oh mighty man of ego and win the hearts and minds of the cowardly to “your side”.
In response to Laura—
There is sound reason to dismiss the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. As Paul said in Second Timothy 4:3-4—“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
We dismiss it because it is a fable.
We dismiss it because it is not sound doctrine.
But chiefly, we dismiss it because those who believe in this lie are building their house upon the sand. When the ocean is peaceful the beach seems like an excellent place to build. Likewise this doctrine—it looks like it has Scriptural backing. But the storm will come—but the Rapture won’t.
True story. In 1992 a group called Taberah World Mission preached that Jesus would be coming and rapturing His people in October of 1992. I read and have their book (The Last Plan of God). I keep it because it’s such an example of coming to a completely wrong conclusion based on the Scriptures.
And do you know what these people said when November of 1992 rolled around, and they were sill here? They didn’t say, “We were wrong.” No, they said, “GOD LIED TO US.” All believers in this false doctrine are in danger of saying the same thing.
Your assumptions are way incorrect. Belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not the oil. Neither is this belief what opens up the Gates of Heaven for you. God will take whom He chooses. If the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is true there will be people like me who will be surprised, but we will not be kept out. And if the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not true, and if you actually manage to survive forsaking the Lord during the Tribulation, or are not martyred, you will find the Gates of Heaven open to you—independent of your belief in this false doctrine.
This much I do give you. You are willing to admit that you misunderstood. That is a great thing. That is the sign of the courage of a True Faith.
You use Noah as an example of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. You could use Lot, as well. But neither of these is properly to be understood as illustrating a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. They are illustrations of escaping the Final Judgment of God. White Throne Judgment.
Consider that in both the cases of Noah, and Lot, no one in their respective worlds was spared. No one repented and either got on board at the last minute, or left Sodom with Lot. Noah had made his preparations for 120 years. Lot escaped by the skin of his teeth, only because the Angels grabbed him and dragged him out by the scruff of his neck.
But during the Tribulation it will be possible to be saved. Revelation 11:13 says—“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”
A better example of what will happen to the believers during the Tribulation occurs in Exodus. We know that Egypt endured ten plagues. At the end of the world there will be seven plagues. But in Exodus 8:21-23—“Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.”
Now this is significant because at this point three plagues had struck Egypt. But God, at that point, separated the Land of Goshen where the Hebrews were, from the Land of Egypt. The remaining Seven Plagues did not affect the Children of Israel. Catch the meaning? Just as the Children of Israel were not touched by the last Seven Plagues of Egypt (though they were yet in the land) just so will those believers, and those who become believers, during the Tribulation, also be untouched by the great disasters to come, because these are the Wrath of God, and we are not appointed unto Wrath.
As Jesus said in John 17:15—“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” This is the perfect answer to those who misuse Rvelation 3:10 as proof: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
You are spot on Scott. An outline on this from a book by David Pawson “Living Hope”
The Separation at His Coming – Matthew 25 (Matthew 24:45 – Matthew 25:46)
A) Four Stories
1. Master puts faithful wise servant in charge and does a good job OR suppose he is an unfaithful servant and is wicked, beats his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards
2. Ten Virgins – 5 Wise, 5 Foolish
3. A man going on a journey-gives servants 5 bags of gold, 2 bags of gold, 1 bag of gold. Talents.
4. Separate the sheep from the goats – whatever you did for the least of these brothers you did for me.
Four stories which all say the same thing – emphasis is on those who were not ready.
Could finish with – and they lived unhappily ever after.
Jesus was telling these stories two twelve men who had been with him for three years. Jesus is the central figure in each story.
B) Six Features of these four stories
1. Center around one person – owner of house, bridegroom, businessman, king
2. In every story a crisis is precipitated by the return of the central figure AFTER A LONG TIME
3. Some people were ready – How?
a. First story the faithful servant is ready because he got on with the job he was supposed to do
b. Second story the bridesmaids ready because they had built up enough resources to carry on for some time
c. Third story tells us that if God has invested anything in us, he is expecting interest back.
d. Fourth story is those who are ready are those who are caring for the needs of Christ’s brethren.
4. Those who are ready are rewarded
a. First story reward for being faithful is greater responsibility
b. Second story there is an opportunity to celebrate, enter into joyful celebration.
c. Third story is both he first and second mixed together, promotion and joy
d. Fourth story it is to reign with Christ on a throne, enter into a kingship prepared. There are two sides to being prepared
5. Some were not ready – because they had NOT done certain things
a. First case a man had been left to give food to other servants and did not.
b. Second case they were supposed to have enough oil and did not.
c. Third case the man with one talent, bag of gold, had failed to improve it.
d. Fourth case, they gave the whole thing away by the tone of their response
6. The unready are punished.
a. They are not forgiven – not one of them.
b. They are not given a second chance – not one of them.
c. Advent – The Second Coming – Judgement
d. In each story the people who are finally rejected had a connection with the central figure in the story.
C) So, how can we be ready? What was wrong with those who were not ready?
1. Their relationship with the lord was inadequate
2. Their relationship with his brethren was inadequate
a. He did not recognize them ( “I don’t know you”)
b. They had not recognized him
Jesus comes with God, the dead are raised with sound of trumpet. They can’t go any earlier.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 NIV
[14] For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. [15] According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
John, by the way you framed your statement, you sound like a Jehovah’s Witness almost implying that Jesus is not in fact God in human flesh.
That translation is actually mainstream Protestant. Go here and compare. I did a double take until I realized the KJV uses the word Him instead of Jesus. That makes the sentence mean something else entirely when rendered that way in English. God either brings the dead with Him when He comes back, or God brings Jesus and the dead with Him when He comes back..That would be the Muslim freindly version as they and the JW’s don’t believe Jesus is God, but will return at the End. Both those renderings in English are wrong The KJV is correct but still awkward.
In the original Greek it sounds like ‘If we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, then God will also raise those who died in Jesus. (and) Jesus will bring them when He returns.’ In plainer English, when Jesus comes back He won’t leave those who have died in Him behind. The Greek original uses separate words for Theos and Iesou. The rabbis have a saying that any translation is imperfect because it involves commentary. The Dakes rendering of Genesis 1:28 is wrong because “replenish” in the KJV had 3 different meanings in English, but only one in the original Hebrew and Dakes assumed the wrong meaning. Most English speakers even now have trouble with that because the most common English meaning comes from Greek.The Hebrew and Latin agree. Don’t be too hard on people who get their Bible solely in English.
https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
While pretrib rapture may be the favoured view amongst christians, the Jewish rabbi’s knew the time of Messiah, just got the details wrong. I throw in scripture from other view point as the defence is always worthwhile, even if only because person has had to think about what to write. It is a wonder we get any understanding of the bible in english if there is so much wrong translation. Didest i sayeth that correctly?
I summarized the verses in 1 Thessalian’s 4
In the first place, there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Matthew 24:9-10 clearly speak of a Universal Martyrdom or Apostasy. “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.”
This is also shown in Revelation 6:9-11—“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
All too many Christians put what the Bible actually says, to their interpretations. There is no reason, whatsoever, to assume that the above verses refer only to the “Tribulation Saints.” Christians would always have to make such a choice—providing they actually knew what the Mark would be.
A big assumption you’re making is that the Holy Ghost will be taken away from the earth. What do you base that on? Second Thessalonians 2:6-7 says—“And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” If you make the baseless assumption that this will be the Holy Ghost, it proves that you don’t know what it is that withholds. Do you assume that it’s the presence of Christians that is holding back the Antichrist? Rediculous!
But one of your worse assumptions is that the Church is Christ’s Bride. It is His Body—not His Bride. Revelation 21:2, and 9-10 clearly identify the Bride of the Lamb as the City of New Jerusalem (the old Jerusalem being the Whore of Babylon, the seven mountains being the mountains upon which Jerusalem is built upon: Mount of Olives, Mount Scopus, Mount of Corruption, Mount Ophel, the Original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the Hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built).
You also say there will be no Israel and “Jesus Christ will have to find another place on earth to establish His reign.” But Zechariah 14:3-4 says—“Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”
Scripture says that Jesus will set foot down in Israel. How can you say then that He will have to go someplace else? Your belief in this Unscriptural Doctrine of Man has led you to deny the Scripture says. Do you need any further proof you’ve let yourself be deceived?
In the translation from Greek to English the King James made an error in 2Thes. 2:7 by adding the pronoun ‘HE’ to the Restrainer and then failed to reset the pronoun ‘HE’ later when it refers to the ‘Son of Perdition’ as found in the original Greek. Thus leaving the English reader to think that the Restrainer was the one removed when in fact it refers to Satan being cast down from before God as found in Rev. 12:10. Satan comes back to earth in the image of the now dead Anti-Christ the man who was wounded unto death in Dan. 11:45, and none could save him.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 HE has been added to restrainer which changes meaning of the next HE used
I just wrote on this subject, then got the idea to see if there was anyone else commenting on this very question, and I found you all. Here is how I see it from what I just finished writing:
Going back to 2 Thes. 2:6-7, reviewing the original Greek to the King James Version translation, there arises a problem with the pronoun “He” as used between the two different versions. The verses are first given as found as written, then I will add a modifier later to clearly stating who the pronoun is referring to. The object of verses 3b-4, which is the revealing of the “Son of Perdition” is the him and he that is referred to in the verses below.
Greek Transliteration to English from: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
6 And now that which is restraining you know, for to be revealed him in his time. [1 him]
7 The for mystery already is working of lawlessness; only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present, until out of [the] midst he might be [gone] [1 he]
{‘might be’ also could be translated ‘become’} = until out of [the] midst he becomes
Now the KJV:
6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. [1 he, 1 his]
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [2 he] [each ‘he’ refers to a different celestial being]
There is NO pronoun used for the Restrainer in verse 7 of the Greek, so the pronoun “he” at the end of verse 7 still is referring to the “son of perdition’s” revealing – “until out of [the] midst HE might be [gone]” in Greek. Then there was translated in the KJV where the HE was added before “who now letteth will let”, which now makes the next HE read as if the HE is now the Restrainer also, in “he be taken out of the way”. The original HE still stands in the meaning given in God’s word and a faulty translation cannot change any interpretation of what the Holy Spirit said through Paul.
So to clarify the meaning as written in the KJV I will state who is meant after each pronoun his or he.
6 And now ye know what witholdeth, that he [the Son of Perdition] might be revealed in his [son of perdition] time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he [restrainer] who now letteth will let, until he [son of perdition] be taken out of the way.
“Or a better translation could have been “7…, until he [son of perdition] is removed from of the midst” that he [son of perdition] might be gone [cast down] – from before the Throne”.
“Cast down” comes from my view that Satan is the ‘son of perdition’ of verses 3 and 4 and refers back to the battle in the heavens found in Rev. 12:7-13 between ‘Michael the archangel as the Restrainer’ and Satan. Also refers to Dan. 11:45 [demise of antichrist the man] Dan. 12:1-2 & 11 because 2 Thess. 2:4 describes the Abomination of Desolation, which is also the same time as the “Time of Jacobs Trouble”. Rev. 12:10 “…the accuser…is cast down which accused them [from] before our God day and night”.
We all must verify key verses were properly translated to retain their original meaning, or others will build an entire false doctrine out of it, as is the case here.
May I quote you in another place where people are saying there’s no rapture before tribulation. I will name you as the person who wrote this.
I came upon this discussion by accident and after reading many points on both sides I noted the agreement that, there is a rapture! Many if not most are therefore claiming sincere belief in God’s grace through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, His only Son.
Immediately upon reading each presentation, I also noted whether the message contained acrimony/acridity or courtesy /kindness in general. On that basis I considered whether you were searching for Truth or simply pushing your truth I judge no-one but direct each of you to Titus 3:10 &11. This refers to fruitless disputes about the law but surely also the issue of division within the church.
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3.23
Having read some of your post’s, I would say that most of you could comment with a more Christian attitude.
A couple of replies then to my main point. Referring to H. Raguskjold’s comments. You say 1Thess is about salvation but take a look at the next verse 10″He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep we may live with together with Him.” How would that happen, ‘if we are awake, we could live with Him? Some will be taken-up alive! Raptured! Would yo be able to point to a verse or verses to connect God’s wrath to the great white throne? In John 17:15 Jesus is speaking to and about His disciples, not to Christians in general. “I pray for those who will believe in Me through their message.” As for your comparision to the plagues on Egypt. Did not God lead the Israelites out of Egypt alive and take them to the promise land?
Now let me get to my point of view. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post -trib; after all each view can be proven by the right verses, then especially by also ignoring others. They must all be correct. God only wants us to know things when the time is right for it. Dan 12: 4 “…close up the scroll don’t write this down for is about the time of the end.” Again, in Rev 10:4. So, looking for a verse to tell us when or even if there is a rapture, is futile.
After saying this there is such a thing as logic. If it smells like an apple pie, then there must be one somewhere close.
Also let me say that we do not have the mind of God. Rev. is so complicated no human can decipher many of the things God has planned for us in the end times. Just ask the average fundamentalist Christian what he thinks of the end times, when Jesus comes back. You will likely, hear him say “when Jeus comes, I’m gone, very simple way to look at it, end of story.” Let me just give an example. Have any of you ever considered the number of people groups represented in Rev.? I stopped counting at one hundred and fifty. Our minds cannot conceive of all His plans. He will let us know if we need to know.
No rapture in the Bible? Well, what happened to Elijah, Enoch, Jesus at His ascension, and the two witnesses???? What is meant by Taken-up, taken, snatched, and ‘come up here’. Oh, shall we just take those phrases out of the Bible.
Ok, using logic, Christians are saved from wrath–there will be new converts during the Seal and Trumpet judgements. What, you know the great multitude that no one could count, Rev. 7:9. No, believers will not be killed during that time. The souls seen under the alter in Rev. 6:9 is a different group. Many differences. Maybe those killed by the fourth Seal, or martyrs from all time. They are only souls, that’s what it says. They have no bodies, given white robes but cannot were them until the resurrection when they are complete, together with their bodies. Where-as the great multitude is standing, alive, wearing white robes and worshiping God while the souls are under the alter complaining for revenge. Sure, more will be killed, Rev. 14:13, but not raptured.
About the test of REV. 3:10. Well there is a couple of verses that shows this will be the most important test ever given. Will you, those alive in the first half of the tribulation period, decide to follow God and believe in His Son Jesus or worship Satan, commit allegiance to the anti-Christ and become a sycophant the the false prophet? Every Judgement of the Seal and Trumpet judgements are designed to drive non-believers to this decision. God wants everyone to come to the knowledge of truth. 1Tim 2:4. Rev. 11:13, Survivors pass the test; 16:11 they cursed God-didn’t pass the test.; 16:21 they cursed God.
By the way Matt 19:30 & 20:16, Luke 13:30, all say the last will be first and the first will be last.
What is God’s purpose with the test, the two witnesses, the angel seen flying in mid air, REV. 14:6, If not to add to the number of those in this great multitude.
There is much, much more to indicate multiple raptures in the wrap-up of the age.
Thanks for looking Dennis Leach
Funny thing about false teachings: You’ll never meet someone who came to the conclusions of those false teachings on their own. Said teachings are always handed down by false teachers. Consider: How many adherents to a pre-tribulation rapture have you met that are adherents because they picked up a Bible, one day, read it from cover to cover, and then simply came to that conclusion of their own accord? My guess is none, and I suspect those who might say otherwise of lying to make a point. It’s certainly possible, but far more likely that they were raised to believe it, or their introduction to the faith came coupled with it; having been told to them by some contemporary preacher in a $3,000 suit and patent leather shoes.
I was once very much espoused to this teaching (PTR)… then, I started reading the Bible. PTR friends, I don’t claim to know what is in your hearts, but I do question your wisdom. If you associate tribulation with the literal wrath of God, then something is very off. The two things are VERY different. Furthermore, if you fear tribulation, it’s time for a gut check. I think you’ll find that the Word has no shortage of commands to “not be afraid.” All of PSALM 91 and 2 TIMOTHY 1:7 are a couple that readily come to mind.
Here’s wisdom: Who gains from you being lulled into a state of complacency? Is the mouse that isn’t paying attention more likely, or less likely, to be eaten by the stray cat hiding in the weeds? There are few things that would serve as a greater killer of faith than believing you would be spared the most turbulent time in human history, only to find yourself in the midst of it, thinking you’ve been “left behind.”
The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.
We can never stop learning. Continue to search the scriptures for truth. Some of the knowledge is “timed for the times” We understand what we need to understand as it is revealed. The antichrist will not be revealed until the Church is removed thus removing the “Restrainer” (The Holy Spirit residing in the body of true believers) When Jesus comes for His church, He will be near earth not on earth and will snatch His Church away. Imagine how much turmoil and fear that will be caused at that point. Enter the calming voice of reason “seemingly the answer to the world’s problems” NOT! Those spoken of that will be spared from God’s wrath, are those who will turn to Him during the 7 years of tribulation. Some will know exactly what happened and get serious right away, many will become believers as a result of those who evangelize during that period, as well as the 144 thousand who God will use to aid the harvest. It is those people who will be spared the final wrath. Right now, we are experiencing “the sorrows” or the birth pains leading up to the Rapture, and the 7 years of final tribulation. The awesome thing is, if you are in Christ, all you need to do, is Christ’s business. Be in the midst of that whenever He calls you home, because you don’t know when that will be and it doesn’t have to be in the Rapture. There is no time for complacency at all, in “any case” . Blessings
You speak correctly according to the definition of the word “rapture” according to I Thessalonians 4:17. Part of the failure of understanding the last days in determining the Church being removed is based on assumption. I would also agree that the “Restrainer” is the Holy Spirit according to II Thessalonians 2:6. However, some potential misunderstanding is what is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, in academia we call this, “pneumatology.” You see in John 20:22 Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the Holy Spirit, I believe at this time they became regenerate. Then later on while Jesus was still with them, He said, “And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.” Acts 1:4 which is a fulfillment of what Jesus spoke of in the Gospels according to (Luke 24:49, John 7;39, John 14:16, John 15:26, etc.) I state this, because we must understand the outpouring of the Spirit which gives the church the power to preach the gospel, and we have the indwelling of the Spirit within the believer which doesn’t go away. So, when the “Restrainer” is removed the church will no longer function organically for lack of better term. Again, this is fulfilling John 9:4 we must work while we have light. Also, this connected with the days of Omer, around the day of Pentecost there was 10 days, where the disciples did not preach or teach the gospel and were basically in hiding until the outpouring happened in Acts 2:1-45, which if read carefully you see a reversal of the Tower of Babel. Now, I say all this to say, just reverse what happened at Pentecost for the last days when the “Restrainer” is taken out of way. The Holy Spirit is still here, God just goes back to operating like He did in the Old Testament, and He deals on an individual basis. As for the Church being removed, it cannot happen, there is a short period, not only according to II Thessalonians 2:3, just like the 10 days before the outpouring happened, so will it be before the rapture! I believe the Church is still here for a period, the pre-trib position usually is based on assumptions, and isolating text, to make the point. I am not arguing positions, I am just stating, we cannot assume that God will act differently in last days as He did in the days of old. He is the same and does not change (Malachi 3:6, and Hebrews 13:8) and I will also state He doesn’t change His mind as men do (Numbers 23:19). This coupled with Ecclesiastes 1:9 “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” There are many patterns that God lays out in His Word, because He is consistent. Another key, is Jesus revealed at the last supper who would betray Him in John 13:21-36) why? Because it is giving us a picture of the last days. Why would Jesus, who is our wisdom, reveal the Antichrist to a fallen world and initially a deceived Israel? If God, is consistent then He has no reason not to reveal it to His Church (the Faithful). As for the 144,000 evangelizing, nowhere in scripture can we assume they are preaching the Gospel. There is no revival, as a matter of fact according to scripture men only get worse, men will not repent (Revelation 2:21, 9:21, Revelation 16:9-11) why? Because lawlessness will be increased (Matthew 24:12). Again, tie this back to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. He will no longer convict the world of sin (John 16:8).
There are many other points, I won’t exhaust in this post. The last being the Churches in Revelation specifically (2). The Church of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) and Church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). These are the ones Jesus found no fault with. So, why would he allow one to be persecuted and the other as a sign to all the churches to be removed? Good exegesis is necessary in our interpretation of the text. In fact, they both are told to overcome! Pre-trib will use the Church of Philadelphia as proof of the rapture. There is much more, consistent with the entirety of scripture, we will enter the Kingdom of heaven through much tribulation (Acts 14:22). Be alert, because as we things happen closer together, we need to pay attention to the season(s) we are in, because we need to look up, because our redemption draws nigh (Luke 21:28).
The restrainer is a he, but it is Archangel Michael, who scripturally has restrained Satan throughout history in scripture.
Besides this there are believers on the earth during the great tribulation, and the Holy Spirit indwells them too, so God is not removing Himself from the earth.
And Christ only comes for His bride a second time, not a 3rd time…
Hebrews 9
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Scott,
I agree that the Holy Spirit is not removed. In the Greek, He simply stops restraining. I understand the perspective from Daniel 12:1. However, I believe the picture in Daniel is clarified by Revelation 12:7-11. It is only the Holy Spirit who restrains evil. There is no one outside of God who can restrain evil. Not even angels. Remember, Jude 1:9, the angel Michael said the Lord rebuke you to Satan…! I also get Revelation 20, thr binding of Satan. Again back in II Thessalonians 2:1-7 part of context is speaking about the Mystery of Lawlessness. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer of evil. An Angel does not convict anyone of evil in righteousness, etc.
You can not just force it all, this resisting the devil onto God, God has His angels for reasons, and purposes. Yes all the power comes from God, but God distributed this power to angels so that they can do the things that God wants. God could do it all without angels but He choose to use angels as part of the orderly government of God, and simply following your POV, angels have no reasons to exist, but they do exist, and they do resist the devil, specifically Michael and his angles fight against the devil and his angels, but the power and authority to do this comes from God. If it did not, then they would not be successful. We also are to resist the DEVIL and he will flee from us.
Saying this ‘There is no one outside of God who can restrain evil.’ is a lie. Example here.
Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
I appreciate your response and the dialogue, we agree, except when it comes to the restrainer. There is much to be said, I am not sure this thread is the most appropriate way to converse. I would welcome you to come on our show to discuss this matter. You can visit perhapsToday TV on YouTube to check our our various videos and teachings. Blessings!
I would just add one verse to your great observation about Michael and the War in Heaven.
Back in Daniel 10:21 Jesus tells how Michael the Archangel “there is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael your Prince”
Jesus was referring back to verse 13, where they both had to fight their way to Daniel by overcoming the Prince of Persia.
The word “Holdeth” is key here to linking this event and Michael to the Withholdeth and Letteth as the Restrainer of 2Thes. 2:6-7
These words really don’t appear anywhere else in scripture, but just a few unrelated areas.
May God continue to bless your efforts at getting the Truth out
If you believe in a PTB read the following:
Mathew 24:9
“”9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.”
Matthew 24:29-31
“29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This is saying immediately AFTER the tribulation is over, believers will be raptured. You can’t get more clear than that. The same verses say “then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn”. That’s because they know judgement is coming. Those are the same events that occur on the “day of the Lord”, which is the start of the punishment for non-believers.
As far as suffering, the Bible says NOWHERE that Christians will not suffer or be persecuted. In fact it CLEARLY says just the opposite. See:
John 15:20
“20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.”
The meaning of that is very clear, The servant is not greater than his LORD, meaning the servant will suffer the same fate as the LORD.
Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
In other words, if you are seeking to save your life by getting the mark, & worshipping the AC you will lose eternal life. If you refuse the mark, knowing you will likely die or be killed as a result, you will receive eternal life.
Demonstrating that the Bible does talk about a Rapture (using the word, “harpazo,”) is a proof only of a Rapture—not that it will be before the Tribulation (since the Bible is not in the practice of promoting heresies, nor in the habit of contradicting its own self).
And that there will be a Rapture is not in doubt. That is not the issue.
“We can never stop learning,” you say. By that, you mean that if we keep searching the Scriptures we will eventually come to agree with you. But your position is based on a popular interpretation of the Scripture, and absolutely NOT on the Scripture itself.
Do you know what an assumption is? The Book of Esther shows a classic example of it, when Haman “assumed” that the King’s desire to honor a certain party could only be referring to himself. We who have read that Book know well how that ended!
The Spirit of Haman rests on those who make such assumptions. They say things like, “The antichrist will not be revealed until the Church is removed thus removing the “Restrainer” (The Holy Spirit residing in the body of true believers)”
Where is your evidence that it is the Holy Ghost that restrains the Mystery of Iniquity? That is not a thing that is universally believed. Some have assumed it was the
[1] the Roman government;
[2] gospel preaching;
[3] the binding of Satan;
[4] the providence of God;
[5] the Jewish state;
[6] the church;
[7] the Holy Spirit; and
[8] Michael the archangel.
All assumptions, and nothing but assumptions.
So, neither can you assume that the AntiChrist will not be revealed until the Church is removed.
Neither can you assume that Jesus will be near the Earth—but not on it. You are basing these notions completely on the idea that First Thessalonians 4:16-17 and First Corinthians 15:52 will occur seven years before Matthew 24:30-31. But let’s look at all three passages:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” [First Thessalonians 4:16-17]
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” [First Corinthians 15:52]
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:30-31]
You, who say we must never stop learning, look at those three passages objectively and answer me honestly—is there a single thing in Thessalonians or Corinthians that is incompatible with Matthew 24?
The fact is you could put them altogether side by side and they would be completely homogeneous (for they are all talking about the same event)—like so:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
Then we which are alive and remain
we shall be changed and
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To quote the Lord (in Job 38:2-3) “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Where is the contradiction in the harmonization of those three passages? And if there is no contradiction why do you teach that there is—that they must be separated by seven years? Wake up—because if you can’t answer me, do you seriously think you can answer the Lord God?
Or if this is too much for you, answer this—
If the Rapture happens seven years before the Second Coming, and according to First Corinthians 15:52, it happens at the Last Trump, then how can there be a trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31—which we know happens at the Second Coming. If the Last Trump occurs seven years before the Second Coming, there would be no mention of a trumpet at the Second Coming. If these two passages speak of events that occur seven years apart, then one of them is a lie. Only if they are occurring at the same time (the Second Coming) can both verse be true.
Last means last. After the Last, there cannot be another. Think about it and believe something so simple that even a child can accept it. As Jesus said, you must become as a little child.
Why do you keep skipping Matthew 29? You ignore the important comment: But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man….
31 and He will send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET (just as in Revelation there will be the last trumpet and in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 speaks of a cry of a command and the voice of an archangel and the TRUMPET of God. 1 Corinthians 15:52 speaks of the LAST TRUMPET. The trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised).
I’m going to assume that you made a mistype. Because I have very good reasons for skipping Matthew 29.
What you write is true, but I don’t see how you imagine it proves a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
[1] Immediately after the Tribulation, Sun darkened, Moon not give her light, stars fall from Heaven. Fulfilled in Revelation 6:12-13—“The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,”
Revelation is not a linear account. We read as John wrote it. John wrote it as he saw it, but what he saw was not linear. Time (or its equivalent) in Heaven does not run concurrently with time in Earth. As Peter said—“one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” [Second Peter 3:8]
The earthly example of the making of a film may help to clarify this (which admittedly goes against the grain of natural human understanding). If in one of Lucas’ Star Wars films, the action begins on the desert planet of Tattooine, and ends on the desert planet of Tattooine, and the middle of the film takes place on Dagobah, that is not how they’re going to film it. Rather they’ll film all the Tattooine sequences at the same time to save cost and time.
In Revelation, John witnesses not one vision of the Second Coming (Chapter 19), but four.
[1] Revelation 6:16-17—“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” The Day of His Wrath IS come, it’s not going to come several chapters later.
[2] Revelation 11:15, 17—“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever…Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.” Taken—currently, not several chapters later.
[3] Revelation 16:17—“And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.” It is DONE. Finished—right in the present moment, not at a later point.
These three passages are talking of one and the same event, seen from three different perspectives—four if you count Revelation 19. Much the same way the Gospels give four different perspectives on the life of Jesus Christ.
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:31]
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” [First Thessalonians 4:16]
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” [First Corinthians 15:52]
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,” [Revelation 11:15]
All the same Trumpet. And as I think I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the Trumpet in Corinthians is specifically called the LAST TRUMP. If it is the last trumpet, there can not be another that comes after it. We know the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24 occurs right at the Second Coming. This then has to be the Last Trump. The only Rapture occurs exactly after the Tribulation.
I could not reply to you again, so I will reply to myself! Sorry, I did not clarify as it sounded like you, Mr. RAGNSKJOLD, were previously arguing in agreement with this so called Pre-Tribulation snatching away. I see you were not, nor do I find anywhere in the Scriptures where Christ will come to take away believers prior to a great tribulation. I never focused on this, until I kept hearing it repeatedly whether on “Christian” type talk radio or sermons. All the more reason each individual needs to read their Bible and know what is the truth and not blindly rely on others.
Side note: Its very hard to see this text when you are trying to post as its so faint. Not sure if this can be changed by the owner of this website.
Wendy—sorry if there was some miscommunication and misunderstanding. On my side I probably didn’t read you very carefully. No excuses (I’m not even sure of the reasons, for that matter!) No, I am definitely not in favor of the Pre-Tribulation (or Mid-Tribulation, or Pre-Wrath Rapture, for that matter.) Rapture. Post Tribulation Rapture only need apply. When I was in a group called Shiloh I believed in the Pre-Trib, not because I’d researched it myself, but because it was what was believed in that group and I was new in the Faith. I certaionly made sense, but then, so does Santa Claus living at the North Pole—if you’re a little kid. But when I became a man I purt away childish things.
And when I became a man, I dug into the Bible for myself. In Shiloh I was in my early twenties. But the older I got, the more something didn’t ring quite right with that doctrine. The more I looked into the basis for it the more I saw gross misinterpretation, naive misunderstanding, and really shallow, childish (not childlike) eshatology.
I kept my mind open, doing my homework and considering the possibility that there might be something I was missing that might prove the Pre. Yet, every bit of so-called evidence crumbled when exposed to the Light of Scripture. Once you’ve seen 99 valid proofs that 2+2=4, the odds evaporate that the 100th is going to demonstrate conclusively that 2+2=59.
If that wasn’t bad enough, the deceptive tactics that some of the promoters of the doctrine used left a real bad taste in the mouth. One woman presented a clip from a certain teacher, hinting that it was irrefutable proof. It didn’t take me even a half hour to discover the flaw in the reasoning. I posted it in a comment, and the next day it was, “Comments are disabled for this video.”
But in fact, the real clincher, for me was realizing that First Corinthians 15:52, which speaks of the Last Trump had to be the same trumpet that is blown with a great sound in Matthew 24:31. if the Corinthian trumpet referred to an event seven years before the Second Coming, than it was a lie, because you can’t have a trumpet be the last one—if seven years later there’s another one. It could only be the pen-ultimate trumpet. A truth so simple that even a child would see it. But it appears that all too many Pre-Trib believers are too wise and smart to have such a child-like faith.
A word about assumptions—more specifically, about HOW they happen.
I remember the 1952 Disney film, “In search of the Castaways.” This was adapted from Jules Verne’s 1868 novel, “The Children of Captain Grant.” A Frenchman, Professor Pagonel had found a message in a bottle. It was frightfully deteriorated, but he is able to figure out the latitude (but not the longitude, and the word “Indians.” This leads them to South America. But he later realizes he was mistaken, for the fish he caught (in which the bottle was found) is found only in the waters of the Indian Ocean. They then head there. But in the end, it turns out that the word “Indians” actually refers to a place in Indonesia called “Dian’s Inlet” The Captain was held prisoner “In Dian’s” Inlet. And each time Pagonel realizes he was mistaken he laughs at himself, saying, “I am really stupid!”
But Professor Pagonel has far more of a sense of humor about himself, than most believers in the Pr-Tribulation Rapture. This is because for them to admit they have been making similar assumptions about what the Holy Scriptures mean, and that they are wrong, would mean eating a lot of crow with their humble pie.
Assumptions happen when people are guided by wishful thinking—
when they don’t take the time to objectively study the Scriptures—
when they let someone else teach them instead of reading the Scriptures for themselves.
There is not a single Scripture that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers base their delusion on, that can’t be refuted through objective and careful study of the Scriptures—not a single one.
In the beginning if my search, when I was seeing irrefutable proof of the Post Tribulation Rapture (the ONLY Rapture that Scripture speaks of) I would still keep my mind open, I would listen to what the other side would speak of. If the Post Tribulation Rapture was the Truth, then I had nothing to fear from listening to the other party and see what they had to say. But in the end it was no longer a possibility—it was the ONLY possibility.
I mean, once you’ve tested 2+2=4 and found it to be true 99 different times, you’re just not going to suddenly find a valid proof that the answer is really 5.
From what I read in God’s Word, it is clearly not “difficult times” that He is saving his believers from for I agree that trials and sufferings, which are addressed in Romans 8:17,18, have been many throughout Christian history. If you read the scriptures, such as Romans 5:9 and 1Thess. 5:9 you will see that it is God’s WRATH that He will pour out in those last days that WRATH we are being saved from. That being said, your 1st point of argument is rendered void. And by the way , much like the word “rapture” is not specifically used in scripture, the word “trinity” is not used either BUT BOTH DO EXIST.
Hello Gary,
I agree with you that difficult times do not equate to God’s wrath. That was not the point I was trying to make in the post. The point is the often-heard argument “Jesus would not beat His bride.” I’m arguing that most pretibbers use this line of reasoning to force the rapture into being pretrib when it is clearly not. I deal with the issue of what wrath is God sparing believers from in this post: https://nopretrib.com/spared-from-gods-wrath/. As for the arguments you made regarding the terms rapture and trinity, I do not deny either of them. It is wrong to infer that because I believe the scripture places the rapture at the end of the tribulation that somehow that means I don’t believe in a rapture at all. I affirm both the rapture and the trinity. It is the timing of the rapture that is the point of contention.
In In context, the Wrath the believer is saved from is not referring to the Wrath poured out on the Earth in Revelation chapter 16, but the Wrath of God revealed on the unbelievers on the great Day of Judgment. That is the Wrath To Come spoken of in First Thessalonians 1:10.
But this does not mean that the Church will suffer the Wrath of God poured out in Revelation 16—for two reasons.
The first is shown in Exodus chapter 8:22-23—“And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.”
At this point three Plagues had been sent down upon Egypt. But it was not until the Fourth Plague that the Children of Israel were protected from its effects. The remaining seven Plagues did not touch the Hebrews. Likewise, though the Wrath of God will be poured out on the Earth on Revelation 16, it will not touch any of the believers still alive and who remain. God made the two times of Plague parallel each other that there be no doubt about His message—the believer will not be harmed by the Wrath of God, though it be poured out on the Earth.
And it should not be forgotten that the “rapture” of the Children of Israel occurred not before the tribulation of the Ten Plagues—but after. So shall it be with the Church, the Chosen of God.
But the second reason should also be considered. And that is that most of the Church will not be on the Earth—not because they were raptured, but because they were martyred, or apostasized, as it says in Matthew 24:9-10—“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.”
Churches that teach the rapture are irresponsible. Christians that are expecting a rapture but are faced with the tribulations during end times will be more likely to lose faith. Faith takes strength and courage and hoping and believing you will be spared that pain does not help a believer develop that courage and strength.
Hello Luke, I only agree with you in part. The rapture itself is a biblical doctrine and should be taught. However, teaching that the rapture is an escape from the tribulation is not. And you’re correct that when taught improperly, it does set one up to fall away. The other false doctrine that goes hand in hand with the pretrib rapture is the idea that believers can’t fall away. Together, a recipe for apostasy.
Isn’t it funny how so many people refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming the “rapture”? No where in the bible is the word rapture used. At Jesus’s return the dead in Christ shall rise first and those believers still alive at that time will rise after them with their new bodies to meet the Lord in the air. It’s quite obvious if you take the time to read the bible thoroughly. I have undertaken this as a personal goal many years ago and uncovered things I never knew about especially concerning the resurrection of the saints at Jesus’s return. God led me to study his prophecies in the bible as I have been a believer in Jesus from a very young age and the trials and tribulations in my own life made me want to discover more about God to deal with the extreme hardships I had to go through. When you desire to get closer to God He will reveal to you the truth. Many and I would say most people just don’t have time for God and they believe whatever someone may tell them. Many scoff at reading the bible. No man may know the hour of His return, but we can see the signs. Jesus himself taught this. I was raised in the Catholic church, learned about Jesus, believed in Him and his imminent return and the resurrection. It was only when I started going to Pentecostal churches, non-denominational, and tv preachers as well that I started hearing of the pretribulational resurrection. Let me just say folks, there is only one resurrection, of who? The dead in Christ and the alive believers when Jesus returns at His second coming on His white horse! Matthew 24 outlines the whole thing. Mark has the same synopsis as well as Luke. What does Jesus say, the very first thing? Let no one deceive you! People are being deceived by this pretribulation resurrection theory that was only designed by Satan himself to cause confusion and loss of faith, exactly what Jesus said would happen. Jesus warned the believers. But people don’t read the bible for themselves. They just listen to somebody on tv or some preacher or somebody else and don’t test what they say as the bible says to test whats being told you. Read the bible for yourself or have a bible study with friends on this subject and God will show you the truth. God says to trust Him with our lives as well as being willing to die for our faith. Those that want to save their life will lose it, but those that lose their life shall have it. Those that endure to the end shall be saved. How do you endure without suffering? Whether you are alive or dead at Christ’s return you will be given a new body and meet the Lord in the air! How awesome is this! Trust in the Lord and you shall be saved! Don’t be deceived! Praise be to God, to God be the glory!
Excellent, thank you
Rapture is used in the Bible, but the Bible was NOT written in English. The Latin and Greek have harpazzo, which translates to the rapture.
I believe in pre trib, as the Holy Spirit has led me to that conclusion by The Word. However, I understand that others have a different truth. I do not, however, believe that this single difference in belief will cause anyone to fall. We, as Christians, have the Holy Spirit. We are the Church, the Bride of Christ. What Jesus refers to as false prophets, I believe, are those who take a person away from Jesus. And, those who can be deceived, were never truly a part of the Church at all. We know this through scripture. These little, trivial arguments should not pit one against another or serve to demean another’s faith. We serve one God and we have one Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. Blessings to all who live their life in Jesus Christ. Amen!
Wow! So much to unpack here.
I do not believe it was the Holy Spirit that led you to this conclusion.
According to Jesus in the preceding verses he warns, “See to it that no one misleads you.” Again, this is in the context of His second coming, including warnings about falling away. So I disagree. This difference can cause someone to fall.
I’ve tested the spirit of pretribulationism and found him to be false.
@ Nathan Lacefield The word harpazzo you referred to as meaning rapture, translated means , to be carried or dragged away, carry off by force to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly to snatch out or away to pluck. One can twist it’s meaning in so many ways? Let us look at one of Christ’s parables shall we, the one about the wheat and tares. Jesus always used these to show meaning of things to come pertaining to the saved and the lost. The parable speaks of how the wheat was over ran by tares (a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison.) Or to make it simple, weeds! The parable says! Matthew 13:30 |
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Now to interpret this to the saved, and the lost! The tares, which is the bad are the sinners, The wheat, which is good, are the saved! The parable says the tares/ the bad will be grabbed up first and taken away , and cast into the fire, and the wheat/ the saved will be gathered last. meaning the righteous the saved, isn’t going anywhere because God’s Kingdom shall be here on earth In Jerusalem , Just as the so called false god Satan, showed us this when he tried to set his kingdom up there. Satan is an imitator. It is true we will meet Christ in the air, we all will good with bad, saved with sinner. For the day Christ returns, He will do so with full Deity, He will do so as God! And once all sees God coming in the heavens, those who are still in the flesh and looks upon God! in a twinkle of an eye, shall shed their flesh bodies, and their spirit shall rise. This happens because no one can look upon God! while their in the flesh and live. Lastly as long as one is in the flesh, they have a chance at redemption! If all Christians are raptured to safety, how much do you think they would enjoy it knowing they could have stayed and possibly lead someone else to the Lord, even if they lost their flesh life in doing so? What Christian would leave behind a lost brother or sister that they possibly could lead to safety if there was still a drop of hope? And as long as one is still in the flesh, there is that drop of hope. What makes anyone in the flesh think they are better then Jesus? or his apostles? They all suffered, at the hands of man, to Glorify God! what makes any of us think we are better then them? I know I’m not! And for one to think so, would mean you think, your above/better then Jesus Christ! God forbid!
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory has a large abundance of supporting evidence. The first piece of evidence we have is that the church is not appointed to God’s wrath. The Great Tribulation is the period of time in which God will pour out his judgment on the entire Earth, but he has promised us that we will be taken from the hour of trial. Romans 5:9 says, “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.” 1st Thessalonians 5:9 supports this as well, “For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,”. These two verses alone are enough to tell us that we will be kept from the Great Tribulation, but there are more still. In Revelation 3:10, John was promised by Jesus himself that the church would be preserved from the hour of trial, “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” In this verse, not only does Christ ensure us that we will be kept from the Great Tribulation, but that its purpose is to judge those who dwell on the Earth. We know that when God makes a promise, he cannot go back on his word. His nature is righteousness, and thus, he cannot lie. Therefore, when God promises in His Word that we will be taken away from this planet before the Great Tribulation, that will happen. Now, apart from the fact that the church is not appointed to God’s wrath, what other evidence is available to prove the Pre-Tribulation theory? Throughout church history, especially during the time of the apostles, Christians were constantly awaiting the Rapture as if it could happen at any moment, which is shown in John 21:22-23, “Jesus said to him, ‘If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!’ So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, ‘If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?’” The early church could only await reunion with Christ, knowing that he could take them at any moment, because the Rapture will happen before the Tribulation. If it was not so, and the Rapture will occur after the Great Tribulation, then certain events would have to be fulfilled beforehand, such as the reveal of the Antichrist. Thus, the church would not have been in constant confidence of an imminent reunion with Jesus as they were in John 21. Another piece of evidence resides in 2nd Corinthians 5:20, “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” If we are ambassadors for Christ, then our function and purpose matches that of an Earthly ambassador. The duty of an ambassador is to speak on the behalf or one’s ruler, spreading his message. When diplomatic negotiations fail, the nations will often go to war. Before this happens however, the ambassadors are called back home. In just the same way, we will be called back home since we are Christ’s ambassadors. In 1st Thessalonians 4:17-18, Paul exhorts the church of Thessalonica to comfort each other with the knowledge of the Rapture, “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” You cannot comfort others with the words that they will endure the darkest time on Earth and will face brutal suffering for doing what is right, but the knowledge that we will be preserved from those days can comfort others. Another reason why the church will not be present during the Great Tribulation is that it is the time when God will focus on the Jews, his chosen people. Currently, most of them are blind to the truth about Jesus as said in Romans 10:19 and 11:25. The Great Tribulation is the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks, which is a period specifically for the Jewish people. Daniel 9:24 describes this period, “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.” These are not literal weeks, but prophetic weeks, which have a much longer timespan. The first sixty-nine weeks were fulfilled within the Bible, the final week is yet unfulfilled, which is why the church cannot be present during the Great Tribulation. Jesus also promised us this escape in Luke 21:36 “But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Isaiah 26:20-21 reinforces both the doctrine of escape, and the definition of the Great Tribulation as the day the Lord pours out judgment, “Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.” In addition to these promises, the church is shown to be completely absent from the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 11:28, the Lord rewards His church while the world is judged, “The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” In the entire seventeen-chapter description of the Great Tribulation, spanning from Revelation 4 to Revelation 21, the word “church” is not used a single time. The word church is used in Revelation before chapter 4, and after chapter 21, which is very significant. Another significant point to note is that the Rapture is not another coming of the Lord, nor is it a phase of Jesus second coming. Remember that the Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.” We will be “caught up” and will “meet the Lord in the air”, Jesus is not descending down to Earth. Additional Scriptural evidence is found in Luke 12:40, “You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” If the Rapture were to occur at the end of the Great Tribulation, then all believers would know when it would take place. However, the Rapture will occur at an time unknown to both the church and the world, which is only possible if it occurs before the Great Tribulation, before the reveal of the Antichrist. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is another scripture that supports this evidence, “For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.” It will be instantaneous and unexplained to the lost people of the world, and they will be left behind as stated in Matthew 24:40, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Saying that those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are practically demons trying to deceive people into falling away is wrong. Do not think that you have some ultimate understanding of the Scripture. In the end, when it takes place, we will know what argument was correct. I believe that a Post-Tribulation view contradicts God’s character.
Nathan,
As I predicted, you did not address my contention that you have misinterpreted Rev 3:10. Instead, you merely regurgitated the typical pretrib talking points. Your comments going forward will be held in moderation until you are able to focus on one issue at a time.
[1 of 9] There’s actually not a single shred of supporting evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture—whatsoever. There are, however, a host of Scriptures, that are misapplied, misunderstood and misinterpreted.
I’ll start with your assertion that the Church is not appointed to God’s wrath. This isn’t talking about the seven vials filled with the Wrath of God, in Revelation 16; it’s referring to the Wrath of God at the Great White Throne Judgment. But even though Christians will not be taken off the Earth during the Tribulation, they will still not be subject to the Wrath of God. Your Romans 5:9, and your First Thessalonians 5:9 are talking about the Great White Throne Judgment, nothing else—it’s a verse that speaks specifically about salvation and the issue of Salvation is expressly tied up with obtaining Salvation before the Day of Judgment. Your conclusion that these are Pre-Tribulation Rapture verses is not enough to convince us of your assertions; some of us look deeper into the Scriptures than our own wishful thinking would like us to.
Consider that in the Book of Exodus the Wrath of God descended on the land of Egypt in the Ten Plagues. Now the Hebrews were subjected to the first three plagues, when the Nile was turned to blood; when the Nile brought forth frogs; and when the dust brought forth lice. But here’s a curious thing:
“And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.” [Exodus 8:22-23]
That means that the Hebrews were not touched by the remaining seven plagues that fell upon Egypt. Just so the believers that remain until that time, they too, shall not be touched by the Wrath of God during the Last seven Plagues.
But yet the Hebrews ended up not even seeing the promise land that God told them they would inherit because of their unbelief/disobedience. Good thing they missed out on the plagues though. You can say misinterpreted, but it’s still in the scripture. There would be no sense of surprise if the only return was after the tribulation and no one addresses that simple fact. They say, “you are misinterpreting the scriptures”, while you are also disregarding scriptures plain and simple. Nothing is permissible to you, but your own understanding in the scripture itself. Instead of dividing the people, (which technically with your attitude you are doing because even rebuke is not supposed to come from a place of better than or “more knowledgeable”. Did you feed the hungry? Did you help the widows? Are you all knowing every interpretation of scripture known to man? You can study scripture your entire life and still miss the point. Jesus often called out the Pharisees, not because they didn’t know what the scripture said, (because they did), they often entirely missed the points altogether. If pre-trib is wrong then it is wrong. We are called to faith and to build one another up. Rebuke isn’t something that is supposed to be used to disparage people, but to gently correct their mistakes. Christ was perfect and just to rebuke those who were wrong, but he often tells us to get the plank out of our own eyes first. It’s not the fact that I disagree with you it’s the fact that your attitude is very evident. I’m by no means perfect and every day God can humble me and teach me. I’m not so far to admit when I’m wrong but I am definitely noticing a correlation with people who are against the pre-trib beliefs. EGO I pray God is as merciful to those who believe in pre-trib as those who believe in post-trib.
In response to Marv
Let’s not change the subject here. That the Hebrews didn’t enter into the Promised land right then is irrelevant. But to address the point, why does the Scripture say they missed entering into the Land of Promise? Because of unbelief. That will not be a problem for those Faithful who will see Jesus coming in the clouds on the Last Day. The Children of Israel, here, are a type of the Believers, a foreshadow, you might say. In the same way, Adam was a type, a foreshadow, of Christ. But we do not expect the same perfection from a type that we expect from who the type represents. David was a type of Christ. Joseph was a type of Christ. Were they perfect and utterly without flaw? Of course not. So, the Children of Israel were a type of the believers raptured to meet the Lord at His Second Coming. But they are not a type without flaw. Thanks for pointing out what you believe to be a discrepancy and giving me a chance to further strengthen my argument.
You say “You can say misinterpreted, but it’s still in Scripture.” Do you want us to believe that because a thing is in Scripture, it can’t be misinterpreted? What is not in the Scripture—is your interpretation of that Scripture.
No one addresses that simple fact? I already have, though possibly not here. Part of the basis of your interpretation is the idea that we are so close to the Rapture (Pre-Tribulation, in your case) that it could happen any day—at any moment, even. Much of this belief comes from a certain preconception. The way it was reasoned in the Seventies was this—“Jesus said that the generation that saw the Fig Tree bloom, would not pass until He returned. A Biblical generation was forty years. Israel (the Fig Tree) became a nation in 1948.” So a lot of people were expecting the Lord to show up no later than 1988.
When that didn’t happen, they switched the date to refer to the Six Day War in 1967. But when 2007 rolled around and still no Jesus, that presented another problem. Still, people began to figure out that, whenever it happened, they could still rely on certain things, and it was those assumptions upon which they built what they felt was a pretty strong case for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
On the Day of the Rapture, everything would be business as usual. Then it hits and your plane suddenly has no pilot. Hits everybody by surprise. Comes as a thief in the night—right. After that, all these people left behind know that the Christians spoke true and now they’re watching and waiting. And the Trib comes tripping along—first “Peace and Safety.” Then, three and a half years later, “Sudden Destruction.”
But this is all based on the idea that everybody will be familiar with what the Bible says. It’s assuming that the Bible will always be around. Unfortuately for that scenario is a little verse in Amos—“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:” [Amos 8:11]
We’re not looking at something that will happen in our lifetimes. It might be centuries away. How much might the world change? In many places of the world the Bible is not, and never has been a priority. How much has this world changed in the last three hundred years? Who could have predicted the things that took place in the Twentieth Century? We have even less hope then of predicting what might come about in, say, the Twenty-third Century?
In such a scenario, the things Revelation and Daniel speak of will not make any sense. People will be unable to piece them together as warnings that Christ will be returning. How could they if they have no idea of Christ? Thus—these things will take them completely by surprise. I trust I’ve dealt with that simple little fact of yours.
That you don’t like what I have to say (because I’ve blown your battleship out of the water) doesn’t mean I’m disregarding the Scriptures, plain and simple—I’m just disregarding the ingterpretations you give to them for I find those interpretations completely without foundation—other than wishful thinking.
Well, certainly foolish, unwarranted interpretations are not permissible to me—no matter how popular they are. How did Paul the Apostle put it?—“But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:”
You accuse me of “dividing the people.” I’m in good company, then, for it was Jesus, Himself, who said—“I come not to bring peace but a sword.” And yet, I’m not rebuking. If you feel I am, then maybe it’s because your conscience is bothering you. But you speak of unifying. You mighrt remembver the story of King Jehoshaphat in First Kings 22. At that time he was confederate with Ahab of Israel. And when Ahab trotted out his 400 prophets (who spoke lies) Jehoshaphat asked, “Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?” Should Jehoshaphat have gone along with the 400—for the sake of unity?
If you are a Christian (and that’s obviously debateable) your concern will be with the Truth, not the attitude of the one telling you that Truth. And you also will not to try to sidestep the issues by using an “ad homonem” argument. “Oh, my speech is rough and not very loving. Therefore I can’t be speaking the Truth. If I was of the Truth, I’d be mollycoddling, and I’d regard offending anybody—as the sin against the Holy Ghost!”
So it appears that I’m to be answerable to you? You’re the one setting the standards of how to tell whether I’m a Christian, or not. I doubt very much if I saw your wrists that you’d have spike holes driven through them. Until you have, you’ll foirgive me if I folllow the One who does.
You see, the issue here isn’t how good a Christian I am, or am not—the issue is that the pre-Tribulation Rapture is a satanically inspired doctrine. I and Scott are showing that it is. I have made many points—instead of dealing with those points, you attemopt to attack my character. You do that, really because you’re unable to refute what I’m saying. But I can counter every single one of your points. Perhaps you should remember what Jesus said in Luke 21:15—“For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.”
[2 of 9] Revelation 3:10 is another great example of how Pre-Tribulation rapture believers let their wishful thinking deceive them. “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” This is countered by what Jesus said in John 17:15—listen well.
“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
How can you say the Church will be raptured out of the Earth—when Jesus Himself prayed that God Himself not take them out of the world? You say that Revelation 3:10 says we’ll be kept from the hour of temptation. You speak true, and Jesus says the Church will be kept from the evil—but not by being taken out of the world.
[3 of 9] You are not trusting the Scripture—but your own interpretation of it. You write: “God promises in His Word that we will be taken away from this planet before the Great Tribulation,” But that is not what God said—He said “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,” Do you seriously think that the Rapture is the only way God can keep them from the Hour of Temptation, keep them from the Evil?
Nowhere does it say that the Rapture can happen at any moment. And if Christians misinterpret it to mean that, I should be bound by their mistakes? Christians have also believed the World was flat; they have believed that Jesus would return in the year 1000. They have believed that Jesus was just a man. They have believed that Mary remained a virgin her entire life. Are we to be bound by their mistakes? We deal only with Scripture here, not fairy tales like the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
You say that John 21:22-23 proves that Christians believe that the Rapture can happen at any moment. “Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” I fail to see how you get that idea from those verses.
[4 of 9] Your assumption that the Rapture could happen at any moment is completely baseless and without foundation. So, yes—certain events must happen, like you said. What is your problem with that? Matthew 24 give a pretty specific timeline.
False Christs.
Wars and rumors of wars. Nation against nation, Kingdom against kingdom.
Famines.
Pestilences,
Earthquakes.
Universal Persecution.
Great apostasy.
False propets.
Love growing cold.
Gospel being preached to the whole world.
Abomination of Desolation—this starts the Great Tribulation.
False Christs and false prophets.
End of the Tribulation—Sun turns black, moon turns red, stars fall from the sky.
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:30-31]
Matthew 24:31 speaks of the Rapture. The verse clearly puts it after the Tribulation, and practically simultaneously with the Second Coming.
[5 of 9] Regarding First Thessalonians 4:16-17—“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” This is speaking of the Post Tribulation Rapture spoken of in Matthew 24:31.
Paul did not preach a faith fit only for cowards, whose only thought was never to have to suffer. That kind of faith is for people whose home is the world. No, what Paul preached truly were words of comfort, for it tells those who have lost everything in this world that it is not the end—you will be with the Lord, He will take you and the earthly sufferings will be no more. So yes, First Thessalonians 4:16-17 IS a comfort. It is the greatest comfort that could be given. But someone like you, that has no faith, and whose hope is in this world only, of course you shy away from that!
[6 of 9] Again, your assertion that God will concentrate solely on the Jewish people , is something else that has no Scriptural backing. Your wishful thinking blinds you. And you say the Church is missing from most of the Book of Revelation. Take a look at Revelation 6:9-11 and you will see the Church indeed mentioned.
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
That’s right. Martyrs. And that is just what is says in Matthew 24:9-10—“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.”
If the Church is completely and utterly gone it will because they will have been martyred; and those who fear to suffer will have apostatized. But that’s a hard saying to accept. Much easier to believe in the comfortable teaching of never having to suffer. Like it says in Isaiah 30:9-10—“That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:” That is the description of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believer and teacher—lies and deceits.
[7 of 9] So, because we meet the Lord in the air, that means He’s always going to stay in the air? It so happens He will appear from Heaven in the clouds of the air. But that is on His way to the Earth as He begins His Millennial Rule.
And you say, “If the Rapture were to occur at the end of the Great Tribulation, then all believers would know when it would take place.” Not so. You’re reasoning that it will happen in our life times a great number of people are familiar with what it says in the Scripture. But by the time these events occur much of what we know of the Scriptures will have been expunged and forgotten. As it says in Amos 8:11-12—“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.”
[8 of 9] And that reminds me—look at what it says iu Revelation 6:6 when the Third Horseman, Famine, is revealed—“And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”
Still think there will be universal ecological disaster, as many of the seals, trumpets, and vials seem to say? “Hurt not the oil and the wine.” Oil comes from olives; wine comes from grapes. That means there will be olive trees and grape vineyards. Not possible if everything is destroyed. Your ignorance and presumption remind me of a group that called themselves Taberah World Mission. They believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. They were certain that the Lord would return in October of 1992. In their book (The Last Plan of God) they wrote—“Therefore, by looking at only the physical problems, the earth cannot endure over the year 2000.” And when November of 1992 arrived and they were still there, instead of admitting they’d been mistaken, they cried out—“God lied to us!” It’s hard to get more faithless than that!
So, even in the midst of the Tribulation, there will still be mills and fields and those to work them. Even at the Second Coming—and one shall be taken and the other left.
[9 of 9] No one’s saying Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers are anything but grossly uninformed—criminally misinformed. They are like the ground referred to in Matthew 13:20-21—“But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”
Their faith is shallow. They don’t dig into the Scriptures very deeply at all. They believe false teachers and never care to question them very carefully. And so they end up believing lies—and when these lies fail them, when they have to deal with hardship and persecution (that they thought they would be exempt from) they get offended. They get VERY offended.
Your third to last statement—“Do not think that you have some ultimate understanding of the Scripture,” almost sounds like a threat. And yet, you’re doing the same thing. You certainly seem to think you have some ultimate understanding of the Scripture. Or else why write such a long diatribe in defense of your view? (Not a single one of which I have been unable to refute, by the way.)
Before you can say that anything contradicts God’s character, you first have to know God’s character. This is what He says of people like you: “These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.” [Psalm 50:21-22]
@Nathan Lacefield (The first piece of evidence we have is that the church is not appointed to God’s wrath.?) First off, let me start by saying, Your right The true Christians are not in God’s wrath, but let us look at the tribulation, shall we? One can plainly see tribulations begins right after Satan and his is released from the bottomless pit. God tells them of all things you can touch, all but one, my Elect, you shall not touch! The elect is the children of God! Which leads me to ask this question? If God’s children are going to already be raptured out of here to safety, why would God say, touch not my elect/Children of God ?More so if they had been already raptured out, they would no longer be in the flesh, but of spirit? An Satan couldn’t harm them anyway?
Secondly! If one looks at tribulation one can see the wraith being pored out on man & women alike, is done so by the hands of Satan, and his, not God! No, God’s Wrath comes much later, When Christ comes back as God! and pours out justice on the oppressors, and those that still refuse a bow knee to God! Two separate occasions all together. But this is where things is a little hazy? Is when Satan has set up his kingdom in Jerusalem, Proclaiming to be Jesus Christ Himself/God! it is either during this time or before hand that The Christians of all 4 corners of the earth, will be delivered up to the jails and there they will be for 10 days some will be released the rest executed. The ones released, to save their own skin, denounced The True God, and took the false one, Satan? either that our the One True God intervened and saved them. Yep! Still here during tribulation. but man is killing Christians here, not Satan or his, so I guess one could say he still obeys God! 7 years was shortened to 3 1/2 least even God’s elect would be beguiled by Satan, and start to believe his words, and turn against God! Yep still here 3 1/2 years into tribulation. By the way, the bible only mentions Christ’s coming, the first was His birth, the second happens after Satan sets up his kingdom in Jerusalem! This is Christ’s second coming, once again the only two times the bible mentions. The second time is as I mentioned before, When Jesus comes as God! to pour out His wraith on The wicked and the oppressors! God Bless!
Nevertheless, a post-trib rapture doesn’t sound much like a “blessed hope”…
I’ll take the blessed hope.
Cheers.
Hello Christina,
The reference to the “Blessed Hope” in Titus 2:13 is not speaking of the rapture at all. In context, the hope that Paul is referring to is the hope of eternal life. That is the blessed hope, not the rapture. See Titus 1:2 and Titus 3:7. Paul does tie the blessed hope to Christ’s “appearing” or in Greek epiphaneia, but that’s not the rapture. Christ’s epiphaneia according to Paul happens when Jesus destroys the Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2:8. That’s at the end of the tribulation. If your blessed hope is a pretrib rapture, then you have the wrong blessed hope.
Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
Argument, closed.
The argument is not closed. It’s just starting. Simply quoting a verse out of context and saying this proves your point actually does not prove anything. For the sake of argument, here is the definition of argument as it applies to this:
I have written on numerous occasions why Rev 3:10 is not a rapture verse. See https://nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted/ “Proof text #4 Revelation 3:10”
If you can provide a persuasive reason or reasons why you think I’m wrong, based on the points I make in that article, I’d love to hear them. To be honest, I don’t expect to hear a reasonable argument from you but you’re welcome to try to persuade me or anyone else following this thread. But please, if you do, stick to the text you originally quoted and the issue of how to properly interpret it.
Nathan, your “Argument closed” reminds me of Haman’s thoughts in Esther 6:6—“To whom would the king delight to do honour more than to myself?” It never entered his head that there could be any other possibility and so he set himself up to look the right fool. Likewise to Haman, you also assume that there can be no other possible interpretation for Revelation 3:10 than that of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Using the King James Bible Revelation 3:10 says—“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
But Jesus Himself spoke against this interpretation. In John 17:15 Jesus says—“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” Jesus Himself prays that the believers not be taken out of the world. But that is exactly what the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is! A taking the Church out of the world. No. The Church will not be taken out of the world. But God will keep them from the evil. That is how He will keep them from the hour of temptation—not by rapturing them out so they’re not on the earth when the evil comes, but that when the evil comes He will keep them in the midst of it.
Ask yourself how the Lord God protected the Children of Israel during the Exodus. Did He snatch the Israelites out of Egypt and then rain down His wrath—or did He rather rain down the plagues, but keep them from touching the Land of Goshen where the Hebrews were?
To expand on revelation 3:10 which says “I will keep you from the hour of testing” Not take you.
In Revelation 9 we read “The locusts.. we’re told not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green plant, or any tree, but only those people who do not have God seal on their foreheads”
Ian Revelation 14 we read “if anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath”
On another note, Jesus says in both Revelation 3 and Revelation 16 “I am coming like a thief”. If he has already come like a thief for the pre-rapture, what does he mean when he twice says during the The Big Trouble he is coming like a thief? How many times is he coming like a thief in the night?
Don’t waste your time arguing with these people. Believing in a Post Rapture or no Rapture at all is just Biblical ignorance not to mention self righteousness on their part. I can’t tell you how many people I have come across who try and disprove the Rapture and do so because they are so full of their own self righteousness, talking a big game on how they are not afraid of the Tribulation and that they are ready to die for Jesus. Uh huh.. right. Big talk behind a keyboard. The pre trib Rapture will happen because scripture says it will. Don’t let these misguided and obviously very troubled people take away your joy of the Lord. Soon he will be calling his own home. Keep looking up.
I can’t think of a better example of an ad-hominem fallacy as this comment clearly demonstrates.
Your problem is in saying the Bible says the Pre-Tribulation Rapture will happen—when the Bible says no such thing. The truth of Scripture is based solely on what the Scripture says—not on how any human being interprets it. And in interpreting it to be speaking of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you show yourself to be on the wrong side of the debate.
Who here has put forth “evidence” of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, that Scott, me, or anyone else has not failed to refute?
And if people are not afraid of the terrors of the coming Tribulation, then they are being quite foolish. But you cannot use the fact that this is a thing that people fear, to prove that because they fear it, God will not allow them to go through it. What excellent Man-centered theology!
So, while despising all those who say “they are not afraid of the Tribulation and that they are ready to die for Jesus,” seems that you must be admitting that you are very afraid of going through the Tribulation. But it also seems you think you won’t have to go through it yourself. You probably won’t, since I doubt very much it will be in our life times. Nonetheless, a man like you will not be able to endure it, should it come in our lifetimes, since you’re putting your trust that you will be delivered from your prison before your execution.
This is called “building your house on the sand.”
“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” [Matthew 7:26-27]
Second Timothy 4:3-4 also talks of believers in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture—
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto FABLES.”
And Revelation 21:27 is also specific on those who promote the Pre-Tribulation Rapture lie, that they shall never enter into the Gates of the City—
“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or MAKETH A LIE: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Lastly, you who despise those you accuse of ignorance, self-righteousness, and being misguided, very troubled people, had best consider the words of the Jesus you think is going to take you out of the world (contrary to what he prayed in John 17:15)
“And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and DESPISED others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” [Luke 18:9-14]
The Bible is a puzzle. God made it this way that we might search the scriptures and find understanding. It is not possible to lift a few verses and call it wisdom. Also, understanding the Bible requires the Spirit of God.
If you see the rapture in the Bible, you will be in the rapture. If you do not see the rapture in the Bible, and can only see that you / the church must go through the tribulation, then you will go through the tribulation. Note, when one of the 144,000 comes to your door, be sure to listen to him… and DON’T take the mark of the beast. Good Luck.
Flawless pretrib logic if I ever heard it. Sorry, I couldn’t help being sarcastic in this instance.
So, if I believe in the Pre-tribulation Rapture I’ll go up in it, but if I don’t believe in it, I stay here? Marvelous logic indeed. I guess then, if I don’t believe in Hell, I won’t go there.
As you say, understanding the Bible requires the Spirit of God. And by your belief in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture you show yourself resisting that Spirit. No more than Eve can you recognize what’s really speaking to you, but it is o obvious. The Serpent told the woman, “You shall not surely die.” And you listen to a voice which tells you, “You shall not surely suffer, for you will be taken away into Heaven before the Tribulation starts.”
But even if the Pre-Tribulation Rapture were true, someone’s being taken up in it would not depend on whether they believed in it or not. Belief in Christ Jesus is the only requirement. And the Father of Mercies, even if there were a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, would still take a true Christian, even if he did not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But if there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then all who believe in it are believing a lie. And he who loves a lie is himself a liar. And as it says in Revelation 21:8 “…all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death,” along with “…the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters.”
I believe in the rapture before. It doesn’t make sense that we would need the 144 thousand sent down if the church is still here. anyone who is left and decides to become Christian during the Tribulation will be beheaded. Once the Antichrist reins the spirit of God is gone, correct? So that would mean the church is gone as well.
You’re relying on too many assumptions Jaimie.
1. You’re assuming that the 144,000 replace the Church. The Bible doesn’t make that assertion.
2. You’re assuming that pre-rapture believers won’t die as beheaded martyrs. That’s happening today.
3. You’re assuming that no believers will survive the Antichrist’s persecution. The Bible doesn’t say that either.
4. You’re assuming that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth. The Bible does not teach that either.
5. You’re assuming based on false assumption 4 that the Church is on vacation for 7 years. That is also a false assumption.
If you are part of the Church, then your mission is to persevere in or out of the tribulation. Your false speculation of being caught up for the purpose of escaping tribulation is dangerous for your spiritual well being. Count the cost of being a disciple.
Where is the church during Revelation 4-19? Not mentioned once. If the church is on the earth during this time, Why doesn’t John mention this?
Pre-tribulationists claim that the Church is not mentioned from the 4th to the 19th chapter of Revelation and therefore claim it is correct to conclude that the reason is that the rapture has already occurred by the end of the 3rd chapter. This is incorrect for two reasons:
1. The first is a logical fallacy called an argument from silence: “to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than on presence.” An argument from silence proves nothing.
2. The Church is in fact mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. There is more than one word used to signify the Church and or Christians. One is ekklesia which is most often translated as Church or Churches, and the other is hagios which is translated as Saints. The word hagios appears 229 times in the New Testament. In every instance, it is used in reference to the Church or Christians, except as we are told by pre-tribulationists in the book of Revelation where the word appears 13 times. Twelve of those occurrences appear within chapters 4-19 and several of those place the “Saints” in the tribulation. The Church is also clearly identified as being in the tribulation in Rev 12:17.
Also, the word church is NOT in at 6 Epistles: 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John and Jude. So, are these letters not intended for the church?
These epistles do not use the word church but do use the word Saints. Elect and Chosen are used in Revelations which pertain to both Jews and Christians. Chosen and Elect are used 55 times in the New Testament, 5 of which are talking about the Jews. Jesus said I have other sheep that don’t belong to this fold, but there must be one flock and one shepherd. Jesus will bring us together in the last. So Jesus uses the term Elect. Which covers both Christians and Jews.
The word Church is not used in any of the passages that describe the Rapture. So, saying that the word Church isn’t in Revelations so Believers will not be there just makes no sense.
What about harpazo? How do you interpret that?
The Tribulation is for the Salvation of the Jewish Nation. That is the whole point. They will suffer for their rejecting the Messiah but God is Faithful, and will save them in the End, 144,000. The church will be harpazo. The church already accepted the Messiah in their lifetime so they won’t be made to suffer the Great Tribulation. God is Faithful.
Hello Alexis, How I interpret harpazo depends on the context. Depending on the Greek dictionary you use, the word means, “to take violently, by force: to snatch”, Harpazo appears 14 times in the New Testament. I suggest you look them all up.
Matthew 11:12
Matthew 12:29
Matthew 13:19
John 6:15
John 10:12
John 10:28
John 10:29
Acts 8:39
Acts 23:10
2Corinthians 12:2
2Corinthians 12:4
1Thessalonians 4:17
Jude 1:23
Revelation 12:5
Of those, only 1 Thessalonians 4 is speaking of the rapture. And when it does, there is no mention of the great tribulation. The rapture is mentioned to address the concerns of the believers who have lost loved ones to assure them that they will be reunited. There is also not one scripture that says the purpose of the tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation.
Well, what about “Harpazo”? The “Snatching Up?” Matthew 24:30-31 clearly places this after the Second Coming—“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
As Scott says, you have definitely made too many non-Biblical assumptions. Something like a kid hearing about Santa Claus, thinking he knows the story of the Fourth Century Saint Nicholas. It is best to stick with the Biblical account and not jump to the conclusion we have figured it all out, like certain pastors and teachers. Those who make such assumptions run the risk of looking as foolish as Haman, who, when asked by King Ahasuerus how best to honor a man, assumed the king was referring to himself.
One major false assumption is based on the idea that the Church does not seem to be mentioned throughout the bulk of the Book of Revelation. Therefore folks jump to the conclusion that the Church has been raptured! What they fail to look at is Matthew 24:9-10—“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.”
A universal martyrdom and apostasy. That is why you hear little mention of the Church in Revelation—except for Revelation 6:9-11—“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
God is indeed faithful—but can you say the same? When you champion lies such as the Pre-Tribulation Rapture you cannot claim to be faithful to God. Rather, Second Timothy 4:4 says—“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
The covid vaccines and tests are the mark of the beast.
Based on what? Revelation 13:15-17 says:
As far as I can tell, not a single person has received a vaccination on their forehead, nor is there a death penalty for refusing to have one, nor is there a command to worship the beast and his image associated with any vaccination. You have been misled.
Jesus said that the days of His coming would be like the days of Noah and Lot(Luke 17), people would be eating and drinking, marring and giving in marriage, buying and selling, building and planting. Does not appear to be any judgement going on at this time of Christ’s approach. I am sure you have seen this before, however Noah and his family even though on the earth during the flood were preserved from the judgment by sheltering in the ark, Lot on the other hand was snatched out of Sodom, as he was told that the judgment could not fall until he and his family were removed first from Sodom. Abraham when discussing this judgement with God, said surely God will do what is right and not destroy the righteous with the wicked. God replied I will not destroy Sodom if there were just 10 righteous still in that city, which there was not of course. My point is why should God subject His church to the most horrible time of judgement on the earth if He would spare Sodom for 10 righteous?
A better question would be why would be, “why would Jesus warn His disciples to prepare to endure the tribulation if they were never going to face it?” And the second question would be, “if the rapture is supposed to occur before the great tribulation why is there no scripture that actually says that?” Don’t assume your premise and then try to prove it with types and shadows.
Do you think that the examples of Lot and Noah are shadows? Why would God preserve these folk from impending Judgement? Jesus warned his disciples of tribulation (which they did have), but the greater warning was to the Jewish nation which would face the the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob’s trouble, this is not the Church, the message to the Church is given in the NT is that God will deliver the Church from the wrath to come.
Is there any reason that the Bride has to endure the Tribulation before the Wedding Supper? Does she need to be under the wrath of God even though she has already been justified by the blood of Christ or is His blood insufficient to preserve Her from His wrath to come? I though this was plainly explained in scripture. Is this an assumption? The word “Rapture” a Latin word means a sudden snatching away (from the Greek), you only snatch away folk from impending danger or in this case Great Tribulation.
Karl, of course, Noah and Lot are referred to as types and shadows. What you’re missing is what those types and shadows are intended to represent. Is it to convey as pretribbers assert, to establish a pretribulation rapture (which is nowhere explicitly taught in scripture) or is it more likely to reinforce the fact that when judgment comes, it will come suddenly? I’m saying it is the latter. Further, to assert that the Olivet discourse was not intended for Christians is just nonsense. That is reading into the text something that is simply not there. To make the argument that Jesus is speaking to Jewish disciples, therefore, subsequent believers should not take heed to those words would be the equivalent of saying that because Jesus was speaking to men that means this prophecy does not apply to women.
Secondly, you are confused about the terms wrath and tribulation, and how they are to be understood in context. First, the great tribulation is not a synonym for God’s wrath. Secondly, when scripture speaks of the wrath of God, it is important that we understand what wrath the scripture specifically mentioning. It could be depending on the context, Christ Himself returning to Earth, it could refer to some or all of the bowl judgements in Revelation, or it could mean the wrath of hell. Also, the same can be said of the term salvation. Meaning that depending on the context, deliverance has to do with the soul after having endured trial patiently by trusting Jesus and remaining faithful to the end.
I believe many pretribbers will have already fallen away long before the rapture because according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “…Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” So here it is plainly stated that Jesus will not return and we will not be raptured to meet him until 2 conditions are met. One, that the apostasy will come. Jesus confirms this in the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24:10-13 Second, that the Antichrist will be revealed. This also Jesus said in the Olivet discourse. (Matthew 2:15-25) Now, if this is only for the Jews as you say, then you’ve got nothing to worry about. But if these warnings are for believers in the last days, which would seem to be the case since Paul is reiterating it to the Thessalonian believers, then you are in danger of apostasy. It could not be plainer. Don’t be caught off guard.
Thanks for your reply. You make some good points, but what I see in God’s word in both the old and new testaments it is God’s will that His people are not included in His outpouring wrath, whether it was from the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the destruction of Babylon, or the wrath to come.
Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD’s vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. (Jeremiah 51:6 [KJVPCE])
My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:45 [KJVPCE]).
I know Christians have suffered and are still under persecution in various counties even to the point of death, but He will deliver His people when they are in the way of His wrath, this can be seen in the way that He preserved both Noah and Lot.
As Abraham said
“Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (Genesis 18:23 [KJVPCE])
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. (Genesis 18:32 [KJVPCE])
The righteous are not to be included in the outpouring of God’s Judgement, they have to be removed before God brings down His wrath. The same will happen when God brings down wrath on this world, except there will be no place on earth for the righteous to flee to this time, as the Judgement will be global as it was in the days of Noah.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (I Thessalonians 5:9 [KJVPCE])
The day of the Lord that Paul is talking about in not for the Christians it is for the unbelievers. This is what Paul was reassuring the Thessalonian church that the day of the Lord had not come until certain events were to take place. The great tribulation is the wrath of God being poured out on an unbelieving world. The great tribulation is a set period of God’s wrath as contained in the book of Revelation which can be clearly seen as His dealing with the nation of Israel and the world, but not the Church.
The word “apostasy” in older translations is translated as “departure”, Apostasy as understood as a falling away from the faith has been going on since the Church was formed, this “falling away” or departure could be the removal of the church prior to the events as the revealing of the the antichrist, it is an interesting word study.
Anyway sorry to trouble you over this and thanks for taking the time to reply.
Regards
Karl, you mentioned “The word “apostasy” in older translations is translated as “departure”, Apostasy as understood as a falling away from the faith has been going on since the Church was formed, this “falling away” or departure could be the removal of the church prior to the events as the revealing of the the antichrist, it is an interesting word study.”. In the plain Greek text we know the word for falling away is ” Apostasy or Apostasia which equals falling away, in your view would equal “rapture” from II Thessalonians 2:3. The reason for this is if that is true then it preserves the whole doctrine of imminency from from a pretribulation view point. I will point out you the precursors that Paul and Jesus alluded to that must take place “first (protos/ton)” for example in the passage in context. So, these precursors or things that “must come first” are found in Mal 4:5, II Thess 2:3-4, Joel 2:31 and others. But for the sake of discussion of your point on the meaning of apostasy. This idea of the word departure was sometimes translated in early English Bibles like Tyndale or Geneva to mean depart in English. Which turned it could mean the rapture. These early translations used the word depart/ture to define apostasy in a non-spatial sense as in he departed from the faith or he departed from sound doctrine. The word is never used to describe physical departure. In your word study, the truth is in any expanded search in Greek you will never find the word used in a physical or spatial sense. I also know the use of the root fallacy technique which would take the word Apostasia could mean Aphistemi which means to make stand off. This is widely rejected by Greek Scholars because it is not a reliable way to determine definition of words. Using what others have taught as you have picked up is bad theory. If departure is the word used in the case of Paul is true, then that keeps the whole pre-tribulation view intact that the church will be taken out before tribulation! That also means Paul’s statement to the Thessalonians is essentially that the rapture can’t happen until the Rapture! I would rethink that position! Paul is very clear that certain things must come first! A falling away and the man of lawlessness must be revealed. There is much mitr, but I wanted to touch on the word definition.
Ray
The falling away, if viewed as a “departure” from the truth in Christ that has been happening since the church was formed as Paul warned about false teachers already in the church. The word “apostasy” in the Greek here (which is not shown in the English translations) means “the” apostasy, the preposition “the” meaning a specific event i.e the departure. Therefore Paul is not writing about a general departure form the faith as it was already happening. No I believe it means a specific event needs to happen before the AC is revealed.
Karl,
There is so much to be said that I think is missed from the Pre-tribulation viewpoint. So, I will ask this, since the rapture is imminent. If Paul taught pre-tribulation his simplest answer would have been, “the rapture hasn’t happened yet when he addressed the Thessalonians.” That was not the case. His response was, “…let know one deceive you by any means; for that Day WILL NOT come until the falling away comes FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.” (II Thessalonians 2:3 emphasis mine). Also this would go in line with a host of other scriptures in NT with the last supper and Judas betrayal (Matthew 26 & John 13). It was Jesus who revealed who would betray Him at the last supper (Judas teaches us about the antichrist). Who did Jesus reveal the betrayer to? His Disciples! This also is in line with Revelation 13:8, “..Let him who has wisdom…” Who is are wisdom? Jesus is our wisdom! He reveals the antichrist to the faithful first in the last days! I know the comeback already, but there is much much more even from the beginning! You have to stay within the framework of scripture! No one can address the simple fact that the words, Tribulation (Thilipsis) and Wrath (Orge) are not synonyms! They are two different words entirely. But, from a pre-tribulation standpoint, you would have to make the words synonyms in order for it to work! That is simply false! So, then one would say I am looking forward to the tribulation! NO! I am looking for the Return of Jesus, however I know what comes beforehand. That is like telling a pregnant mother you are only looking forward to the contractions, not the baby! A mother knows she has to go through some travail before the joy comes. The Bible prescribes key events in the form of obstetrics (Birth pangs Jeremiah 4:31, 30:5-7, Hosea 13:12-16, Isaiah 13:6-8 Micah 4:9-10, I Thessalonians 5:1-3) and seismology (earthquakes Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13) and Cosmic changes (which are precursors as well (Mal 4:5, II Thess 2:3-4, Joel 2:31) to unfold before the return of Jesus Christ aligning with what He said in Matthew 24. You have to simply look at the whole picture, not just taking pieces. There are foreshadows of the rapture throughout scripture that teach us something about the ultimate fulfillment in the end. Again much, much more that you really cannot do justice to on this thread. Blessings!
Your first big mistake is to think that the Church is Christ’s Bride. In Revelation 21:2, and 9-10 the Bride is identified as the New Jerusalem, not as the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem. The Scripture speaks of the Church as Christ’s body—never as His Bride.
And every time the Church is referred to as Christ’s Body, it is always emphatic.
“Now ye ARE the body of Christ…” [First Corinthians 12:27]
“…the church, Which IS his body,” [Ephesians 1:22-23]
But if the metaphor of a bride is used, it is never emphatic.
“…I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ.” [Second Corinthians 11:2] Paul is making a comparison—he is not saying the Church is literally a virgin, chaste or otherwise.
The biggest (so-called) defense of the Church as Bride, is in Ephesians 5:23-27—“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
Husbands are to love their wives, as Christ loved the Church. But that is not to say that the Church is Christ’s wife. What is to be imitated is Christ’s self-sacrificial love—not the supposed husband-wife relationship.
The love that results in self-sacrifice is not limited to that of a husband for his wife. That should be obvious.
A child can die for a parent.
A brother can die for a sister.
A father or mother can die for their children.
A man can die for his friends. Jesus said that specifically in John 15:13—“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
And that brings up another issue—what do you think Peter and James and John would have thought if Jesus had referred to them as His Bride? Would they have not looked upon Him askance? We’ll never know for Scripture gives not one single occurrence of Jesus saying something so vile.
The King James rightly translates Ephesians 5:25 “…as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for IT.” “It”—not “her.”
John Baptist speaks of himself as the Friend of the Bridegroom—not as the bride.
In the Parable of the Ten Virgins—they are not brides, but bridesmaids.
And regarding your saying “The word “Rapture” a Latin word means a sudden snatching away (from the Greek), you only snatch away folk from impending danger or in this case Great Tribulation.”
But there is nothing in Scripture about the Church being taken away before the Tribulation. Look at the two main passages held to be about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” [First Corinthians 15:52]
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” [First Thessalonians 4:15-17]
Now you honestly tell me if there is anything in these two passages which is incompatible with Matthew 24:30-31.
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
For that matter, the Last Trump spoken of in Corinthians, can only refer to that spoken of in Mathew. They are one and thee same—the Last Trump cannot come seven years before the trumpet in Matthew, otherwise it can not possibly be the last trump. And if the Last Trump is blown seven years before the Lord’s Second Coming, there could be no trumpet blown in Matthew 24. Last means last; after the last, there can never be another—otherwise last is not last.
Can I join in? Two verses completely destroy any notion of a pre trib rapture. And both by the very man that people use to establish it – The Apostle Paul.
1 Corinthians 15:23&24 – “But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s [own will be resurrected with incorruptible, immortal bodies] at His coming. 24 After that comes the end (completion), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after He has made inoperative and abolished every ruler and every authority and power.”
See how the ‘twinkling of an eye’ event comes at the end of the 7 years and not at the beginning? That’s because ‘the rapture’ occurs at the second coming.
I second you Karl on this!
You are mistaken in assuming the Church is the Bride. Read Revelation 21:2, and 9-10 for the real identity of the Bride of the Lamb. The Church is Christ’s Body, it is not His Bride.
If what you are saying is true that only New Jerusalem is is the bride of Christ, then what do you think about 2 Corinthians 11:2?
Actually in both cases, the terms bride and betrothed you to one husband are metaphors. So what do these metaphors represent? They are illustrations of relationship and closeness to Christ, they represent beauty, they represent something that Jesus Himself longs for, and so much more.
Pre-tribulationists and dispensationalists often reduce biblical interpretation to formulas and mistake terms in scripture as code words like “olive tree = Israel” or “bride = Church.” This approach is short-sighted and leads to error. In actuality, both New Jerusalem and the Church are Christ’s bride. This is not contradictory when you consider that the same metaphor can describe two different things.
Scott, regarding your reply to me of September 1, 2021, I’m glad you asked. The doctrine that the Church is the Bride of Christ has caused as much damage as that of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture—if not more. In fact, the two heresies reinforce each other, and you can’t fully eradicate the one unless you utterly uproot the other. As long as the Church thinks of itself as a Bride, it will tend to think of itself as a helpless damsel in distress, whom Christ will rescue by snatching them out of the world before great trouble starts.
As I wrote here on January 12, 2021:
“In Revelation 21:2, and 9-10 the Bride is identified as the New Jerusalem, not as the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem. The Scripture speaks of the Church as Christ’s body—never as His Bride.
And every time the Church is referred to as Christ’s Body, it is always emphatic. “Now ye ARE the body of Christ…” [First Corinthians 12:27] “…the church, Which IS his body,” [Ephesians1:22-23]
But if the metaphor of a bride is used, it is never emphatic.
“…I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ.” [Second Corinthians 11:2]
Paul is making a comparison—he is not saying the Church is literally a virgin, chaste or otherwise.”
You say these metaphors represent “relationship and closeness to Christ.” I’ll ask you this, then, what is more closer to a married man—his body or his bride? A man exists in his body from the very moment of his conception, but he may not meet the woman who will become his wife for many years. And that same man will dwell in his body until the very moment of his death. But he may die a widower (God forbid), his wife leaving this life before he does.
This is why the Church is Christ’s Body. When He was on Earth, Jesus’ body was that of a thirty-three year old Jewish male. But since the descent of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, it was his disciples that became His Body—literally, not metaphorically. Every one who is a true Christian is a single cell in Christ’s earthly body. Medical science in Paul’s day had not progressed to an understanding of cells. Nonetheless, Paul was able to speak somewhat metaphorically, of a very literal truth.
First Corinthians 12:14-18 says—“For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.”
It is metaphorical in the same sense as one who guided the blind and kept them from stumbling into the ditch, might be called “the eyes of the blind,” because he guided the blind and acted as their eyes—not because he was a giant orb with pupil, iris and white. Paul’s use of different body parts is a very general way of describing that which is literally true.
Consider what is written in Isaiah 62:1-5 for an Old Testament teaching on what the Church is in relation to the New Jerusalem:
“For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.”
It speaks of Zion and Jerusalem. It says specifically that the Land shall be married. It then goes on to say that the sons of Jerusalem shall marry the Land. The parallel to the Church is clear. If the sons of Jerusalem marry Jerusalem, the sons of the New Jerusalem will marry the New Jerusalem. But if Christ is the Lamb who will marry the New Jerusalem, then He will marry the New Jerusalem through His Body—which is the Church.
While sayng that certain people reduce Biblical interpreation to code words and formulas, such as “Bride” equaling “Church,” you seem to be saying the same thing as they are, when you say, “In actuality, both New Jerusalem and the Church are Christ’s bride.”
No. This is untrue. If this were true, it would have been spelled out in Scripture. For if Christ’s Bride is the Church, while at the same time being His Body—whenever was a man’s bride his own body?
If you look at what’s going on in the Church today (at least in the West, in America), you’ll find that many are regarding the Church as a literal Bride, and not just as a metaphor. Contrariwise, when the refer to the Church as Body, they use the word Body, as if it were just another name for a group or a gathering. The Church is Jesus’ Fan Club, and the church building is the Clubhouse.
As long as the Church refuses to acknowledge its true position as Christ’s (male) Body, it shall be unable to fulfill its true role as Church Militant.
Thinking of itself as His Bride, it shall continue to think of itself as female, and its role shall be no more than the making of Easter Bonnets—not the Church Militant, but the Church Millinery.
Hello Haakon, I’m seeing from your comments that you seem to have the kind of understanding regarding metaphors and biblical interpretation that are common among Roman Catholics. For example, you emphasize words like are and is to be non-metaphorical but actually literal. This is born out in your statement,
In the same way, Roman Catholics are taught that when Jesus said, “This is my body…” they mistakenly take this literally. In a metaphor, one thing is called something else, often using the word is or are in the process. By failing to recognize a metaphor when you see one, you are led to a false conclusion, and therefore a false doctrine. The idea that the church is literally a physical male body is false. (see: Metaphor Definition)
On the other hand, I think your point that the Church has become feminized is valid, but not for the reasons you state.
I am not a Roman Catholic, Scott. I know little of their doctrines. What I arrive at I arrive at independantly from them, taken solely from the Scripture, and not from any teacher. I do indeed use words like “are” and “is,” for these are the exact words the Scripture uses. Words have meaning. They have exact meanings. So does the word “as” in Second Corinthians 11:2. “Are” and “is” speak of “Identity,” whereas “as” speaks only of similarity. The Church is identified as Christ’s Body—it is only said to be similar in some ways, to a bride.
You bring in Catholic teachings on the Eucharist, assuming that because my ideas are Catholic (which they are not) I must also embrace their misconceptions in that as well. Regarding the Body and the Blood of Christ there are three positions on what exactly happens there. You cite the Catholic doctrine that the bread and the wine literally become flesh and blood. This is untrue, neither do I believe it.
The other extreme, how I have heard it put in one of the Churches of Christ, is that the bread and wine are simply symbols. This is as wrong as the other, neither do I believe that.
The truth is that the Spirit of the Lord God is upon both the bread and the wine.
It is like this with the Believer in Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost comes upon him and indwells him; at that moment he has become a cell in Christ’s Body on the Earth.
The connection between the Believer and Jesus Christ is an organic one. It is not simply a matter of accepting a bunch of ideas and doctrines—it is a living thing. As Adam was nothing but an unliving mass of clay before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, as the bread and wine were nothing before the Spirit of God turns them into the flesh and blood of Jesus (not in the Catholic sense!), and as the unbeliever is nothing but a brand of wood waiting to be burned before Christ is formed in him [Galatians 4:19]—just so is the Believer made into a new creature.
My conclusion is not false because you choose to see it all as nothing but metaphor. Of course it can be a very scary thing to be subsumed into the Body of Christ. Those who feel that way often fear that being made “a new creature” will obliterate their individuality. But it says that “all things are made new.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” [Second Corinthians 5:17]
No, you’re dislike of what I have to say is not proof that it is untrue. And reducing things to “metaphors” (and thus making them harmless) can only be taken so far. I knew a woman who had come to the conclusion (as I had) that the King James Bible was annointed by God. Yet she had never outgrown the belief in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture that she had been taught in the group we both had been in. So it does not surprise me that one could know one thing to be true (in your case, that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is an utter abomination, nowhere attested to in Scripture)—and yet fail to see other truths awaiting in those same Scriptures. But God is gracious, Scott. God is very gracious.
Jesus is warning us all about tribulation which all of us will experience weather for ruptured or not. It is a part of life. The word comes from an older word called tribulum which refers to a large flat piece of wood with rows nails or small spikes driven through it so tha just a bit of each point protrudes through the other side. That’s alright it turned towards the ground a rope is tied to the sheet of wood and some weight is put on top of it. It is then pulled around in a circle on a hard surface like cement or a large piece of stone over the top of wheat that has not been shelled yet. This helps to break the hard shell off the weed so that they can continue to be processed as I start to toss it up in the air and the good stuff is separated from the chaff by the wind. We in our lives Must ALL experience the same thing. It allows us to put our trust and God wholly. And not to rely on anything else. Making it through the tribulation is like training.
WE are not yet at the time of the marriages spoken of in Luke 17. Jesus spoke of the Days of Noah. And what kind of marriages were occurring then?
“And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” We do not yet have a repeat of that. But when it come full time for the end, as it says “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men…” Yes, once again there shall be the mighty men.
Your last point, “should God subject His church to the most horrible time of judgement on the earth if He would spare Sodom for 10 righteous?” It is not for you to presume to know the mind of God.
And you assume that the Church, the Elect, those who shall yet remain until the Coming of the Lord, will undergo the same suffering as the rest of the world. Consider the Children of Israel, in the Exodus. Consider also that during Revelation 16, the Seven Vials full of the Wrath of God shall be poured out. The seven Final Plagues. Now in Egypt, there were ten plagues. But there is a curious occurrence mentioned in Exodus 8:22 “And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.” This occurs after the first three plagues are done. This means that the Final Seven plagues of Egypt did not touch the children of Israel.
So shall it be at the end of the world, right before the return of the Lord. His people who are alive and remain, they shall not be touched by the evil. For they are not appointed t the Wrath of God.
I read abit of your first objection to a pre-trib. rapture, and already, the fact that you are using Job and others as examples shows me your complete misunderstanding of scripture. Job was not saved from God’s judgment. God actually pointed him out as an example of faithfulness during Satan’s attacks.
Stupid housewife
I think you both miss the point and make a false accusation.
The point is that it is pretribulationtists (not all) that make the argument “Jesus would not beat His bride.” Thereby implying that it is liable against God’s character to suggest that He would allow the Church to go through the tribulation. Using Job as an example, we see that in-fact God not only permits the suffering of His servants but also provides restoration in the end. This example is plainly demonstrated and repeated in the book of Revelation. So then, far from having a “complete misunderstanding of scripture,” I have given a scriptural example of how God allows His servants to suffer in the past so we can draw hope from this example as we suffer in the future.
Matthew 24:29-31
Revelation 6:12-16
Revelation 6 mentions the sixth seal which coincides with Matthew 24 above which fit the rapture.
Also, what about Revelation 7:9
Who are you saying these people are if not the raptured church?
Revelation 12:12
Who do you think it is that is rejoicing in heaven during this time…. Christians.
Let’s also not forget that the church is no longer mentioned after the 3rd chapter. All direction regarding the tribulation is for the Jews (Israel).
Revelation 3:10-11
Because IF there was a post-Tribulation Rapture every saved person on earth would have a resurrection body when Christ returned, and there would not be anyone left on earth for the millennial kingdom. However, Zechariah says:
IF all the saved are raptured when Christ returns to reign it would be impossible for babies to be born in the millennial kingdom because Jesus said:
Babies will be born, however, because at the end of the 1,000 years some unsaved will be deceived and rebel against Christ (Revelation 20:7-9). Resurrected saints could not have children, or be deceived.
Luke 21:36
Also, keep in mind to not overlap the Seals, Trumpets and Bowl as they are all sequential.
Hello Kevin, you raised numerous points all of which have been answered in other parts of this blog. Let’s see if your objections are valid.
1. Your initial scriptural quotes don’t have any bearing on the timing of the rapture until you get to Rev 7:9. And you ask, “Who are you saying these people are if not the raptured church?” My answer is what the Elder told John. “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev 7:14. The Elder said they came out of the great tribulation. It does not say that were raptured before the great tribulation. The implication is that they died during the great tribulation. This dovetails perfectly with Rev 6:9-11. So no they are not the raptured Church, that is not what the text says, nor is it implied.
2. Rev 12:12 says nothing about these people being in heaven because of a pretrib rapture.
3. Your premise that the Church is raptured after the 3rd chapter of Revelation is invalid. That is not what the text says. You’re making an argument from silence. In other words, building a doctrine on what the text does not say instead of on what it does say. The Church is in fact mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. There is more than one word used to signify the Church and or Christians. One is ekklesia which is most often translated as Church or Churches, and the other is hagios which is translated as Saints. The word hagios appears 229 times in the New Testament. In every instance, it is used in reference to the Church or Christians, except as we are told by pre-tribulationists in the book of Revelation where the word appears 13 times. Twelve of those occurrences appear in within chapters 4-19 and several of those place the “Saints” in the tribulation. The Church is also clearly identified as being in the tribulation in Rev 12:17.
3. You state that everything after chapter 3 of Revelation is just for national Israel. Where does the text say that? It doesn’t. You quote Rev 3:10-11 but provide no interpretation. This is often used as proof text for pre-tribulationism but it is pretty weak in the context of the other 6 Churches.
4. You make the false assumption that every unbeliever in the world will be exterminated at the second coming. Again this is an argument from silence. The Bible does not teach that. The quote you give from Zechariah makes it clear that there will be many survivors and they will have children. You’re looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
5. The escape that Jesus is talking about in Luke 21 is from having “…your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life…” vs 34. This is not a rapture passage.
6. Where are we instructed by scripture to interpret the seals, trumpets, and bowls sequentially? Prophecy is rarely sequential. Remember Pharaoh’s dream about the 7 fat cow eaten by the seven skinny cows and the 7 ears of wheat devoured by the seven scorched ears? All speaking of the same future events. Joseph planned for the 7 bad years. We would be wise to do the same.
There are six epistles in the New Testament which also avoid using the word “church”. They are II Timothy, Titus, I and II Peter, II John and Jude. Does that mean that these epistles are intended for Jews after the church has been raptured?
The word church is also missing from the passages directly dealing with the rapture when Christians see Jesus again. John 14:1, 1st Corinthians 15:1, first Thessalonians 4:5. It is not even in the description of the new heaven and earth or the new Jerusalem Revelation 21 through 22. Does that mean that only Jews will experience the new creation?
While I understand people have the pre-trib rapture theology, saying the word church is not there is the weakest of the arguments.
“Also, keep in mind to not overlap the Seals, Trumpets and Bowl as they are all sequential.” This, your last point, I would like to deal with first, and add my thoughts to those Scott has already written.
As he points out, there is nowhere in Scripture that even implies that everything in the Book of Revelation is to be understood sequentially. That so many do, does not witness to God’s intention—but rather to man’s limited way of understanding.
As human beings we live in a world where time is measured sequentially; the past is behind us, the present is what we are going through, and we have yet to experience the future. We function (largely unconsciously and automatically) in a linear framework. This is understandable. But to assume that God functions in this same exact way shows an understanding bound and limited by the human perspective, and no understanding of how God actually thinks. Worse, it betrays the human desire for God to dance to their tune, because it’s the one they’re familiar with.
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” [Second Peter 3:8] This verse alone proves that God is in no way limited by time the way we are. Think of the implications of this verse: It means that, seen from God’s perspective, He can look at the events of a thousand years and do this in the space of a day; He can also take a single day of a man’s life, and subject it to a thousand years worth of scrutiny. Imagine God taking a single year to review eighty-six point four seconds of a man’s life! God is outside of what we know as time.
At the beginning of Revelation chapter 4, John is called up into heaven. From that point on he is not seeing things from the human perspective; he is seeing them from God’s point of view. And John is reporting what he is shown, in a sequential fashion. But what is being shown is not sequential.
Consider how a film is shot. The order of filming is usually quite different from what the viewers see, once the film has been edited into its final version. This is for the director’s convenience. If the film’s opening scene is set in Timbuktu; moves to Toledo, Ohio in the middle section; and the final scenes are played out, once again in Timbuktu—the director is not going to film them this way. The travel time and cost would be prohibitive. No, all the scenes set in Timbuktu would be shot all at the same time. The scenes in Toledo would be filmed either before, or after.
Imagine all of human history to be like a book six thousand pages long, each page equaling an entire year. Now Imagine God teaching out of that book. Certainly he could “start at the beginning, go on till you get to the end, and then stop” (as the King of Hearts put it in Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland). But in the Book of Revelation He did not do so.
God’s way was rather to concentrate on certain events; show them to us, and then show us the same events from a different viewpoint and perspective. There is indeed some overlap.
In point of fact, the End of the World and the Return of Jesus Christ to take up His rule, is shown four different times.
Revelation 6:12-17 is the first scenario.
Revelation 11:15-19 is the second scenario.
Revelation 16:17-21 is the third scenario.
Revelation 19: the entire chapter.
Notice that the first three scenarios occur every five chapters.
The sequential way of reading the book destroys the internal sense of consistency and makes it sound like God does not mean what he says.
In Revelation 6, it
[16] “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
In Revelation 11, it says:
[15] “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
[17] “We thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”
In Revelation 16, it says:
[17] “…and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.”
In chapter 6, they say—“The great day of His wrath IS come.” Not “is coming,” but “IS come.”
In chapter 11, it is said—“The kingdoms of this world ARE become the kingdoms of our Lord” It does not say “ The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our Lord.” If the whole book were sequential they would not use the present tense, because that event had not yet happened.
If one does not let the Scripture speak for itself, but rather filters what he reads through the strainer of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, one misses so much.
Lastly consider these three things:
From Revelation 6:
[12] “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake.
[14] “…and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”
From Revelation 11:
[19]—“..an earthquake, and great hail.”
From Revelation16:
[18] “…and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.”
[20] “And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”
[21] “And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”
Same earthquake, and same hail.
I used to not believe in a rapture. However, I now believe in a post-tribulation rapture. I look to Israel for prophecy. What is going on now with the Land of Israel makes me think that the return of Christ will be in my lifetime. I pray that people, especially the Jews, will accept the Jewish Messiah. I appreciate your article and the Scriptures. Thank you. Jesus Christ is coming again. I just want me and my family to be the wheat and not the tares.
I, like many was taught a pre-trib rapture until I started studying and just using common sense. It just doesn’t make sense. Those teaching it almost always would use the word “we”. Who exactly is “we”? If the pre-trib was true, where would God draw the line? Everyone knows, Christians have been killed in His name since the resurrection. Why is He going to secretly rapture believers prior to the tribulation? What make these Christians different from those who have died or been persecuted in His name over the centuries? Answer, nothing. Those who are thinking they are going to be out of here when the tribulation period starts are in for a shock. I am sure many will disavow their faith and I think this will be part of the falling away that the Bible speaks of.
Scott why do you lead people astray and brake their hope? What’s wrong with you? You write nonsense like other died without Rapture like all disciples, and followers in the 1st Century “which was example of us” Was that time pf Rapture then? Did you not read the parable of sawer and reapers Did they not gathered the wheat first in the Barn? and tares?
Imu, if you read Matthew 13 you’ll see that the harvest is at the end of the age. Further, you should see that the tares are gathered first and destroyed before the wheat (God’s people) are gathered together to Him.
A false and lying hope must be destroyed. Those who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture build the houise of their faith on sand. For every verse in the Bible that seems to support a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, there is one that refutes it. For example, Revelation 3:10 (Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.) is often used as proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. But this is countered by John 17:15, where Jesus says “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” Now if Jesus Himself prayed the Father that is disciples not be taken out of the world, how then can it be that the Church will be taken out of the world? They will indeed meet the Lord in the air, as it says in First Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Notice that it says nothing about being taken up into heaven. No, the resurrected believers meet the Lord in the air, as He is descending down to the Mount of Olives to begin His Thousand Year Rule.
Well said Haakon in the air does not mean in heaven
What do you do about The Wedding? Compare Luke 12:35-36 with Revelation 19
My understanding is that Jewish Weddings are run far different than Westernized weddings.
When does the Bride get ready? and how?
I lean in favor of the Post-trib viewpoint… but i have a hard time reconciling this, since I see little scripture or texts addressing this issue on either side of the debate.
Thanks
Hello Jacob, I don’t believe that the Jewish wedding tradition has anything to do with the timing of the rapture. For that, I rely on scripture. The scripture makes it clear that Jesus returns just one time at the end of the tribulation. For the rapture to be pretrib, Jesus would have to return twice. This is not taught anywhere in scripture.
If the Jewish Wedding Ceremony had any bearing on the Rapture, then its details would have been contained in the Scripture itself (and contained explicitly) but Scripture is oddly silent on this matter. Plus, since the Church is Christ’s Body, and not His Bride, such a symbolism is irrelevant. Revelation 21:2, 9-10, tell us that the Lambs Wife is the City of thee New Jerusalem, not the believers.
Both the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and the Church as the Bride of Christ are equally false and reinforce each other; unless both are uprooted they will continue to grow up again, like the devil that’s been cast out and now brings in seven devils worse than himself.
All positions are applied based on theological and hermeneutical understandings. So, let’s just eliminate them all and then look at what scripture says. Consider the following outside of any framework of pre/mid/post, etc.
1. No one knows th day or hour.
2. There is a second coming of Jesus Christ
3. Satan will be given time on earth, where is actually confined to for a period of time.
4. The church will not experience the wrath of God.
5. Time element is completely tossed out. Remember when the Lord returns we have eternity now mixing with time. Things will not be the same from that point on.
6. The Bible at points like the book of Revelation is not chronological.
7. Prophecy is patterned
8. There is a resurrection of the just and unjust.
9. God does not separate, in other words those in Christ cannot have anything apart from other believers otherwise the house is divided!
10. There is a 1000 year millenial reign of Jesus Jesus Christ.
11. Satan wants to be like the most high, so he will imitate the things of God even the resurrection as well as other specific things, hence the deception!
12. There is a Harpazo, or rapture of the Church
13. The Christian will go through trials and tribulation, which are different from wrath. We cannot apply these two things with the same meaning. The Greek doesn’t allow it. I would entertain dialouge and will cited scripture references for every point! We are the body of Christ, let’s stop acting like foolish virgins. God will have a spotless Bride with or without us! You in or out? We cannot be dogmatic about something none of us can pinpoint. But, we can be discerning of the times as we are required by the Lord to be according to what he has forewarned us of according to the scriptures.
These are points that all are scriptural and outside of any pre, mid, post, prewrath, view points. There shouldn’t be an argument, if we agree on what scripture teaches us and not based on some framework belief based on denomination, scholar, etc. That is to say we shouldn’t listen to teachers, but only if they are around biblically! Please email me if you want more insight to the points I have mentioned. Otherwise this post would be even longer. Maranatha.
Not really understanding your point here. You admit there is a rapture but don’t see it happening at any specific time?
Scott,
I am not eliminating the timing per se’. To your question can we know the specific time? The reason is, I truly believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24:36. If we truly understand the Pesher (deeper meaning) starting simply with the word “day” refers to a “period” or “hour” which means “instant”. The more we try to pin down the period (day) or even instant (hour) of our Lord’s return, the more confusion is brought about. So, I cannot possibly exhaust thoughts on the Return of Jesus Christ in this post. But I would encourage the faithful believers in Jesus Christ to simply know the events the Bible states, that lead up or point to the period or instant moment when the Lord will return and we are taken. A few things to consider as a framework that is generally overlooked is what I am referring to. I agree with you in principle, there is a season we can have an idea. Specific timing, I think we have to be careful. The points I listed again are essentially events the bible prescribes what will occur. If we take these events in proper context, not necessarily in chronological order, then you get a better understanding of what the scripture is trying to teach in light of the Lord’s return. Let’s start with the famed pre-tribulation view point. If you start from a wrong foundation, even though there are scriptural references to the view, it is off. Daniel 9:27 (how you ascribe the entire 70th week to it being God’s wrath) and thus the rapture of the church? Scripture doesn’t say that, it is applied, and therefore becomes the operating framework for every other scripture for the argument among others. According to Bible Prophecy, the event that takes the Antichrist to the pinnacle of power on the international scene and begins his seven-year reign is a seven-year pact or covenant described in the book of Daniel. I think one key is understanding Daniel 9:27. When the Anti-Christ steps on the scene and confirms a covenant with many for seven weeks. Some believe this will be the start of seven years of utter chaos and destruction. I can see that, simply based on what scripture defines this individual as being a vile person (Daniel11:21). However, upon closer study, we are warned more times of deception than anything else by Jesus and the Apostles in the new testament. Why is this important?
Because, when we see the Antichrist step on the seen as described in Daniel, the idea this person will bring initially is a false peace and deception. When he is described in the new testament, we see many “lying signs and wonders” as well as him desiring to be worshiped! Initially, in the early stages of the Antichrist’s reign, everything will appear to be going well. He’ll be trying to make everybody happy, and will somehow manage to bring peace to many parts of the world. He will seem to be the smartest man who ever lived, with the greatest power and the greatest wisdom, able to solve the unsolvable problems, stop all wars, and put everybody to work, building peace. Bringing “Peace and safety” (I Thessalonians 5:3) that will be a slogan of his political power and the general opinion of the masses. Everything’s going to be peaceful and safe. No more wars. Everything’s going to be secure. Everybody’s going to have plenty. And despite some setbacks and troubles, initially it will seem to be true! then suddenly he cuts it off! I believe this goes directly in line with Revelation 12 (war in heaven) Satan is cast down (I Peter 5:8) so, we need to be sober and vigilant as an example.
We have to understand that the Bible is not a western developed world book. It is a Jewish book! So, in each instance we have to look at the scriptures from that point of view. I see patterns of prophecy in scripture. One end (Genesis) teaches us something in reference to the other end (Revelation) and all the components in between. Think of a loaf of bread–it is the same on both ends when it comes out of the oven until you cut it up!
I am in agreement with you Scott, there is a period of time/season, based on events happening, I am certain the rapture will happen at some point in the future. I am just not subscribing to a certain camp. The basis for the my stance, is not a certain framework or approach to scripture or you can easily get into “proof texting’ as some have, or you begin adding something to the text that it doesn’t state or bad eisegesis.
Here we see three reasons elaborately explained but none it contains any verse from the Bible to support the arguments.Only some counter arguments against some other arguments.
Matthew, thank you for your comment. What scripture references would you like?
No one knows the day or hour Mayt 24:36! Let’s throw out Pre, Mid, Pre- wrath, and Post Tribulation all together. Because the Bible doesn’t teach any of it. It is applied based on our own interpretation. Let’s simplify this as much as possible. The Bible speaks of 2 comings of Jesus. We can all agree with that. Secondly, we know that Satan will be given a time Rev 6, Daniel 7,9, 11, etc to rule. We forget the “TIME” element in all of this. What we cannot fathom is when Jesus returns Matt 24:29-30, eternity meets time Rev 6:14 and things from that point will never be the same! Yes we are changed 1 Cor 15:52. Satan’s time will be short therefore he will be allowed to persecute, kill and destroy. This example has been played out over, over in history to teach us something about the end. Biblically, pharaoh (Exodus), Herod the great (Matthew). Daniel, and Revelation also speaks to the exploits that Satan will have.
We also can all agree that I Thess 5:9 CLEARLY SAYS God’s people will not have to face His wrath, yes this includes the church! We have to take off our western hermeneutical approach to a Jewish Book. Remember history is patterned and also it repeats itself to a point! So, in order to understand the end, we need to understand what happened in history. We also agree, that there is a literal 1000 year millenial reign of Jesus Christ on earth. Prophecy is patterned. I have a lot more that this post cannot do justice to it to validate biblically all that I am saying from Genesis to Revelation. Hence, thilipsis is the meaning of tribulation in Greek. Wrath means orge which is completely different. There are two forms that the bible clearly teaches number one, God’s wrath and the wrath of Satan. God’s people are not exempt from Satan’s wrath Rev 12:12! A lot of what I see in these posts is something that is inherited or taught from a pre determined view, because it seems in the view points to combine or never distinguish between Tribulation and wrath. Tribulation is defined as pressure and wrath as judgement. How do you get a diamond, you apply or allow pressure on the coal!
Jesus is coming, let’s stop squabbling and truly agree what scripture teaches, not based on your pastor, church, or denominational views. Feel free to email me for further dialogue for watch my you tube PerhapsToday TV!
Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!
Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, especially with regards to the literal 1000 years, the difference between wrath & tribulation, and the need to approach scripture with a proper hermeneutic and exegetical perspective. However, I disagree with your take on the rapture. That it will occur, is definite according to scripture and not understanding the timing and scope of these events are perilous for believers.
Scott,
Again I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I agree with your scripture use, we don’t want to be uniformed. I believe the rapture will take place. It is sure according to scripture. I am again, saying certain events that lead up to rapture must be understood by the faithful, in order to avoid deception! What comes first the rapture or deception? I would say deception! A false peace, lying signs and wonders for those who have not the love of truth, etc, etc. This is according to scriptures. God allows these things, and even hands those over to the deception who have not a love for the truth (II Thessalonians 2:10).
These are a bit crossed up. 1 Thess 4:13-18 refers to the rapture. At this point, Christ does not return to the earth, but above it to collect his Church. 2 Thes 2:1-5 refers to the Day of the Lord or Christ’s second coming, where He will return to the earth. But this will occur “after” the removal of the church. Because the man of lawlessness will not reveal himself until the hOLY sPIRIT (Which is embodied in each individual member of the true church) is no longer exercising restraint against evil. Then the MOL will be revealed and tribulation will ensue, btu the MOL will bring peace at first, many will mistake him for the Messiah. Remember, in order for him to make peace between Israel and the Muslim nations, he has to appeal to both, or the temple will not be rebuilt under s supposed 7 year truce. But the MOL will break that treaty himself 3.5 years after it is enacted and he will place himself in the temple and claim to be God, and demand to be worshiped, thus the abomination of desolation occurs. Evil terranny will occur for the next 3.5 years, and the world will nearly destroy itself, but Christ (and His church) will return and intervene. Thus, the day of the Lord or the second coming. The only saving grace for those left behind after the rapture will be the 144,000 Jews who will bring the gospel to those who remain, and of course the phenomena of the 2 witnesses.
These events are easy to get mixed up. By the way, “In my Father’s house, there are many mansions does happen to be related to a wedding “to the bride of christ” or the church” but the timing of these events are a mystery. “Keep Watch” is definitely a key action by true believers. And be careful not to be engaged in activities in your life that would bring shame to the efforts of Lord Jesus. Walk the line, with the help of the Holy Spirit and your believing brothers and sisters.
Stewart, there is nothing in the text to suggest that these are two stand-alone events. 1 Thess 4:13-18 is undoubtedly referring to the rapture, but so is 2 Thes 2:1-5. In fact, Paul places the 2 together when he says, “…with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him…” Paul places the rapture and the second coming together and destroys the false doctrine of imminence by stating that great apostasy and the Abomination of Desolation will occur first.
I disagree I believe he’s actually trying to differentiate between the two I’m not have church members get confused
Stewart, even if Paul was differentiating the rapture from the second coming in this verse (which the context and grammar do not support) he still includes it with the conjunction , and, thus tying them together. In the Greek, there is no conjunction. Christ’s coming and our gathering are lumped together. Either way, according to the grammar an context, neither event will happen before the apostasy and the revelation of Antichrist. To suggest otherwise in this context is reading into the text. Eisegesis.
Even Jesus himself didn’t know when all this was going to come about he said his father was the only one who knew we can assume that because he now sits at his father’s right-hand he may know the answer to that question although he’s not here to answer it for us however if the evil one showed his face we would know that we have approximately 7 years until a post-trib or three and a half years until the mid trip it doesn’t make sense 2 cool the church out of God’s Wrath in the final few days. Therefore I would say that the Wrath actually begins with the removal of the Holy Spirit from the world and his restraining power
Stewart, not knowing the day or hour does not give us a license to create a doctrine of imminence. Secondly, there is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit leaves the earth due to the absence of believers, nor is there a scripture that says this supposed event precipitates God’s wrath. What the scripture does say is that the restrainer is restraining the spirit of antichrist in the world and that at some point the retrainer will stop restraining. Again, you’re reading into the text.
Hi Scott, we all have one thing that we can surley count on. If we live our lives surrendered to Christ and we pray for the Father to direct our paths. Then He will. That, is a promise! So, regardless of our timing mentioned in all these comments, trusting in the Lord makes these arguments for timing a moot point. Here is why. Proverbs tells us not to lean on our own understanding, but to trust in the Lords guidence in all we do. Christ tells us that we WILL experience tribulation. But we can trust that no matter how much, or when, it is only for a season, which in the long run has no comparrison to eternity. We do know that Christ loves His church. He is comming for us. We just need to keep watch. We need to trust Him implicitly. All that we need to know and do will become evident if we remain in His word, and count on His promises. The exact timing of the rapture is not one of His promises, but our salvation is sure if we have surrendered our lives to Him. If we have done that, then that trust also applies to our timing, which we will know If we keep watch. Those who sare saved have already shared in the victory of Christ. That, my brother is no brainer 🙂 As for me, I apologize for even arguing about this subject, as I realize that my own time is better spent on convincing unbelievers that the Lord is a necessity in their lives. The most crtical timing is NOW. Because tommorw is not promised, which means that for millions, there will be no time to consider the rapture or the wrath, but only that there is Jesus that offers eternal salvation to those who call on Him in ernest. Blessings to all.
YES!!! THIS!!! I am so grateful to find someone else who believes the Inspired Word of God! What finally helped me see this, was understanding that the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God are 2 different things! Just like Israel and the Church are 2 different groups! Thank you for articulating this so well! (: Blessings… Evelyn
Hello Evelyn, by your statement you’re implying that someone who has a different opinion about the timing of the rapture does not believe in the authority and inspiration of scripture. I believe in the inspired word of God. I just don’t believe it is right to read into God’s word, something that is not there. One of the problems that pretribulationists have is that they fail to recognize synonyms. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same things.
Oh Scott! Don’t take offense over my direct comment to someone else? Pls…Now, those 2 aren’t the same…and if you want, I will give you a link…I don’t want to offend anyone. Sometimes, in our journey, we find something or understand something, that we didn’t before and just want to share it…if it is false, it will fade away, as Gamaliel told those who were concerned about Jesus and telling the truth and many other places in the Bible talk about those who have a different understanding of something…they didn’t judge it…they said to let it be…I am a Bible believing Christian and I was raised to not believe in Revelation at all…so, I have def had to dig… Blessings and hope in our Lord… Evelyn
Praise His holy name! We are currently living under hrace.But the time is coming when the gospel will reach those who have heard it. Then He will remove His Church from the earth. This will also remove the influence of the Holy Spirit. Then, the triibulation will come. Read Matthew 24 which speaks of the troubles. This is akin to the birth pains of a woman in labor. Do any of you not see the frequency of problems world is increasing. Look up! God bless and keep us all.
Thx again for the encouragement, brother! Blessings to you and yours! (: E
Let me kill off this pre trib rapture once and for all with just two verses. These come from Paul who most people use to prove this erroneous doctrine, proving that he never even considered such a notion. –
1 Corinthians 15:23&24 – “But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s [own will be resurrected with incorruptible, immortal bodies] at His coming. 24 After that comes the end (completion), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after He has made inoperative and abolished every ruler and every authority and power.”
Job done. Goodbye Pre tribulation nonsense.
Evelyn, you belong to Him if you have accepted Him and I think you Have, all will be revealed to you in time. Be ready and be blessedKim.
I am not a believer in the pre-trib rapture. I agree with much of what you say. However there are reasons I do not believe it is necessarily a post-trib rapture either.
Someone pointed this out to me and once I really looked at it, it was really clear. The Bible is pretty clear that the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming” are two different events. When you look at verses on them separately, you find major differences.
Rapture – It never says the world sees it. In fact it happens in the twinkling of an eye, which is extremely quick. Revelation has Jesus stick his sickle in and reap the good harvest. It is always Jesus who takes us.
2nd Coming – The entire world sees Him coming and mourns over it. It comes with a grand display like the sun darkening, lightning flashing, the moon not giving any light. Jesus sends his angel to gather the elect.
The Bible is just simply not going to contradict itself like this. So there is no chance these are the same event but one making mistakes on whether it is Jesus or an angel who gathers us up, or if it happens in the twinkling of an eye or with a grand display that lets every nation mourn when they see him coming.
So how can it be that the rapture is not Pre-Trib and yet not the same event as the Second Coming? The only answer I have found is that it happens sometime after the mid-point of the Tribulation when the antichrist is revealed for who he really is, and before the second coming. Logically it just doesnt make sense Jesus would rapture us, just to put us back on the ground again. Yet when Jesus comes in the second coming, he doesnt come with the angels behind him. He comes with his Saints. The Christians. Plus there are verses saying he will keep us from the wrath.
I believe the Rature will happen after the mid point when the antichrist is revealed for who he is.
I believe it happens before God pours his wrath on the unbelievers. Which is definitely before the 2nd coming.
But no man knows the hour or day or season. So it can happen any time during the “Great Tribulation” which is the second half of the Tribulation. Which is about a 3.5 year period of time.
As for what difference it makes to believers? It can make a big difference but it SHOULDNT make any difference. If Pre-Trib is right, we all must have our walks with God right now! Because it can happen any day and we dont want to be left alone. IF it is Post-Trib, you still need to have your walk with God in the right place right now because you definitely dont want to face the tribulation luke warm. To get through it, we will need our faith to be strong! No matter when it happens, if you are not working on your personal relationship with the Lord right now, you are being foolish!
Hello Ken. Your logic is flawed because you are making a few incorrect assumptions. The first being the statement, “The Bible is pretty clear that the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming” are two different events.” There is no Biblical evidence to suggest that these things happen at different times. The rapture is just one aspect of the second coming, not a stand-alone event distinct from the second coming. If it that were not the case, then you have Jesus returning twice. The idea of Jesus returning twice is not found historically until John Darby in the 1830’s. The writings of the early Church fathers and the Christian creeds all affirm a single second coming. Once you begin with this false premise that Jesus returns twice, it’s easier to misinterpret passages specifically dealing with the rapture aspect of the second coming in an incorrect way.
The first instance of this in your comment is when you say, “Rapture – It never says the world sees it.” This is a logical fallacy called an argument from silence [to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence]. The fact that the rapture happens suddenly does not require it to happen for a determinate or indeterminate period of time before the second coming. You are mistaking what you conclude to be a contradiction with what is, in fact, a misinterpretation on your part.
Here’s where it makes a difference. Jesus and the Apostles and the Prophets gave specific warnings concerning the end of the age, including but not limited to the revelation of the Antichrist, the great tribulation, and the need to persevere through that time. If you believe it is impossible for you to be here during that time then these events may overtake you and you might fall away as Jesus warned in the parable of the sower. When it comes to the idea of imminence, it is our deaths that are imminent, not the rapture. The exhortation to be ready for His coming is not based on the idea of an imminent rapture but on the sureness of the difficulties we will be expected to face at that time. I understand you’re not pretrib but you’re taking up a pretrib argument about the rapture and second coming being distinct events.
Hi everyone God YHVH don’t want us to fight over the word so do it in peace. Mat 13 says tares are taken first destroyed first. So the church is second. Taken in Luke is not rapure if you read Zephaniah 1:2-4 you can read that God wil sweep away everything in all the land.
Zechariah 13:8-9 two -thirds of aĺl the nation of israel will be cut off and die , but one third will be left in the land. Read Isiah 26: 19-21 He come to destroy go into your room lock yourself and pray. Mat 24::22 is chosen who is chosen? The elect who elect the chosen christians fo to translation who is elect and chosen ? It was christians. People myst remember that elect and chosen is same meaning. Many times elect and chozen appears in New testament it not the Jews. Jews is not a true pedugree anymore they are a mix tribe like all the 12 tribes. When you talk to Israel people it is the 12 tribes that are mixed and not Jews alone. Tribulation persecution happened from Jesus to know. So a person pastor killed on a fire staple is not persecution??? You are wrong there. Many countries you cant yust go and oreach they will kill you. China they have to go underground worship God YHVH from 12 -5 o clock in the morning. Why it is persecution. My dad always says you wait for the pre trib rapture you make mistake. I ask why? He said you can die tomorrow the your rapture or hell is waiting for you. Rather prepare yourself to be saved and clean infront off God Mat 5:8 says only the pure will see God and that is Jesus own words. Shalom
Doesn’t pretribulationists agree that Christ’s coming “like a thief in the night” refers to the rapture?
To the CHURCH of Sardis: “If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee AS A THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” (Rev 3:3)
So, these “thief in the night” verses are about the rapture of the church.
But now we have another “thief in the night” warning verse:
“Behold, I COME LIKE A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” (Rev 16:15)
IT’S IN CHAPTER 16 ! AFTER THE SIXTH VIAL!
If the church is still warned in the 16th chapter of Revelation, that means that the church is STILL HERE after the 6th vial! Beside this, we also have in Rev 16:15 the same warning / counsel about garnment and nakedness as we have in the letter to the church of Laodicea, in Revelation 3:18: “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear… (Rev 3:18)
“Thief in the night”, and garnment to cover nakedness, we have 2 evidences that these verses are for the church, and that the church is still here after the 6th vial! There is no rapture in Rev.4:1
Before arguing with the timing (pre / mid / post tribulation) of the rapture, perhaps we must look if there is or not a future 7 years “great tribulation”.
There is not even one Bible verse that says that the second coming will be preceeded by a 7 years long tribulation. The 7 years great tribulation only comes from a distorted fulfillment of Daniel 9 prophecy by dispensational people that cut Daniel 70 weeks prophecy into two parts, forcing to insert a 2000+ years gap between the 69th and the 70th week, forcing God’s clock to stop, saying that while Israel is not under the favor of God, time doesn’t count. How convenient for these people to stop and restart God’s clock as they wish!
Other people consider that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are countinous, with the 70th week ending at the stoning of Stephan (at the end of Acts 7).
Now at the exact following verse, Acts 8:1 we read:
“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a GREAT persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.” (Acts 8:1)
Note the word “great” in this verse. It seems that the great tribulation began immediately at that time, and history proves that this tribulation never ended and is still countinuing today. But only true believers and servants of God are actually suffering it. This can be understand, why would Satan persecute lukewarm Christians that are deceived with the fables like OSAS, the hyper-grace (liberty to sin) false gospel, prosperity gospel, etc., that go to these dens of thieves now called “churches” just to enjoy the vile entertainment (demonic rock / pop music with Christian lyrics) offered there to people addicted to these kind of wordly things, but do nothing for the kingdom of God? These lukewarm or false Christians are not a threat to Satan, so these people won’t be persecuted. Those who are persecuted are the true Christians, those who keep themselves holy and spread the true gospel, those who enlarge the kingdom of God by grabing people souls from Satan’s hands, those who pray under their fig tree (remain at home) instead of going to the dens of thieves…
Seen like this, this great tribulation exclude any possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture, while still keeping the imminency of the second coming. All these great Christians that were crucufied, torn appart by lions, burned have not been raptured. While would today’s lukewarm Christians be? (except maybe because they are too unworthy to die for Christ…)
Rosh Hashanah and Trumpets is next and like Abraham cuts off the slave to sin Hagar and son, so will the unbelieving be cut off and into the 7 year Trib, while God elevates the Church and new creation, our Issac, even as we see in Genesis 21. You need to learn your Jewish feasts and then you will understand. Heb 3-4 also goes over this, and those not resting in Messiah, will be left for wrath from all.
Teresa, If you begin with a presupposition, it is possible to allegorize just about anything to agree with your presupposition. That is not how the Bible is meant to be interpreted. Instead, you start with what the Bible says explicitly in its context which is usually confirmed by a co-text. After doing this you will often find shadows and types but shadows and types do not override what that scripture says explicitly. So here are a couple of explicit statements.
So what is explicitly being taught in this passage:
So what is explicitly being taught in this passage:
In both cases, there is a warning against spiritual deception, apostasy, and the revelation of Antichrist. So here you have two explicit statements indicating that believers will go through the great tribulation before the return of Christ and Paul includes the rapture with it.
Can you show even one verse that says the rapture happens before the tribulation? Or one verse that places an interval of time between the rapture and the second coming? Not types but explicit statements like these above.
The pre tribulation rapture is false.
“No man will accend into heaven exept christ”.
Yet Christians still think this “rapture” will allow them to accend into heaven.
Jesus never said he will raise his people to be “caught up into heaven”. He said he would “raise up his people to be caught up into the air/clouds”.
Jesus says he will bring his kingdom to us, he never says anywhere in the Bible that we will be taken up into his kingdom.
In fact, Jesus says he will bring his kingdom to earth, and we will reign with him for 1,000 years. And when this 1,000 year period is over, he will destroy Satan for good and then God will come down from heaven with the holy kingdom with him and create a new earth and dwell with us always. Never do we go up to him.
Matt
I am not a pre-trib believer myself, but you are mistaken in something you say….
“No man will ascend into heaven except Christ” — Nowhere in the Bible can I find that it says that. The closest I find is where Jesus says ““And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.” At the time Jesus said this, this was true. Only Jesus had been to heaven at that time because no sin was allowed into heaven and He had not died on the cross and resurrected yet so that others could be washed clean. Anyone who has died at that time was in Sheol. But once he died, that opened up the gates of Heaven for those who are washed clean of sin. There can be millions in heaven now.
Luke 17:22-37 I think is the best evidence for a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. There will be little eating, drinking, planting, building, buying or selling (especially for Christians) or getting married at the end of the age. It will be hell on earth! But yet Jesus says He will come and receive (check the Greek) believers when all is calm. Also, I think we drop dead and leave our bodies on earth in verse 37. The resurrection is at the end of the age. For the sake of the elect, I hope it is like the days of Moses during the tribulation.
Wow. So much to unwrap here. You’re conflating what precedes the tribulation with what precedes the second coming. This is a pattern that has repeated itself throughout history. The most recent being World Wars I & II. Each of those events was preceded by relative peace and prosperity followed by sudden destruction. The same will be true of the Tribulation. Relative ease and prosperity punctuated by birth pangs and followed by full-blown tribulation. vss 32-37 are not dealing with the rapture, they are dealing with death.
Thanks for the reply Scott. I am still trying to understand the post-tribulation view. Luke 17:22-37 and Matthew 24:27-28, 36-44 seem to conflict.
I agree there is death in Luke 17:37 but Jesus was talking about the flesh (soma and ptoma), not the soul.
I am curious where you place the timing of Luke 17:22-37. I am guessing you would put it close to the end of the great tribulation. That means the “taken” are sent away into judgment? But then you say in https://nopretrib.com/6-pre-tribulational-arguments-refuted/ that there are non-believers that will enter the millennium. So, not all the wicked are “taken” into death (separation from God)? Is there a verse to make that point?
Hello Rick, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding generally when it comes to the Great Tribulation and the Wrath poured out at the second coming. They are not the same thing. Again I would refer to my WW analogy. Let’s look at Nazi Germany as an example. In Germany, Hitler was not seen as a monster at first, but as a savior to the German people. While a great number of Germans were displaced and suffered through the tribulation of the war, a great many did not. German science and technology were at a zenith point. Those that embraced the Nazi Party became the upper crust of German society while those that did not, suffered. The Nazis thought they were creating a great society that would last for 1000 years. It was not until the regime neared its end, that it became apparent that it was doomed to destruction. So the Nazis themselves were like people before the flood and like the citizens of Sodom. Thier evil deeds finally caught up with them and they received judgment and destruction as a result. So marrying and giving in marriage can certainly be happening during the tribulation. The world at large will not see the tribulation as a judgment of God at first as Revelation clearly indicates, they refuse to repent. Sudden destruction comes at the end.
As for scripture that states not everyone will be destroyed at the second coming. See Zechariah 14.
Hi Scott, thanks for the Zechariah 14 reference. It appears there will be billions that survive the end of the age. Pre-tribbers are adamant all unbelievers will be cast into hell at that time. My guess is that they will become believers when they see Jesus coming in the clouds in great power and glory. Some point to the goats and sheep parable. Those who helped out believers during the tribulation are not cast out. Those who did not help are cast out. Either way, I agree Zech 14 is a good explanation.
Although, Jesus’ reference to eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building and getting and given in marriage is the best timing verse in support of a pre-tribulation rapture. I don’t see how a lot of that is going to happen at the end of the age when billions have died and everybody is hiding in cave and freaking out (Revelation 6:15-17, Luke 21:26). The typical response from post-tribbers is that the tribulation will not be that bad and/or it is local, not global, event. I am making nothing into something. Yet Jesus said it and the words exist to this day. I doubt Jesus made flippant remarks about anything. Below are reasons I believe the “one taken, one left” verses could be pre-trib.
1. They will be eating drinking, buying, selling, planting, building, and getting married (Luke 17). There will be little of that going on at the end of the tribulation. Over 2,500 million will die from famine, drought, war, “natural” disasters, heat, demonic pestilence, 100 lb hail storms, asteroids, and martyrdom (Revelation 9:18, etc.).
2. Lot and Noah were taken out of the tribulation.
3. Jesus is not seen in the clouds. (Luke 17:24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day)
4. One taken is a believer. The Greek root for “taken” is paralambanó which is defined as to receive from.
5. One left is an unbeliever. The Greek root for “left” is aphiémi which is defined as to send away, leave alone.
6. No army of saints, trumpets, shouts or angels gathering. There is only a flash of light and dead bodies.
7. No resurrection. Post-tribbers make a good point that there is only one resurrection (John 6:39-54, John 11:24, Revelation 20:4-6). That leads me to believe there is a pre-trib rapture without a resurrection. Perhaps that is why Jesus replied with dead bodies and vultures when asked “Where Lord?” We don’t disappear. We leave our flesh on earth. It makes sense to me that the resurrection (physical body with super powers) is for earth, not heaven. We only need our soul and spirit in heaven.
If there is no pre-trib rapture, when does John 14:1-3 happen?
Hello Rick,
This transformation follows the resurrection of the righteous dead.
This is what happens when you try to make scripture agree with a presupposition. You have come up with a brand new doctrine.
Now for your last question. “If there is no pre-trib rapture, when does John 14:1-3 happen?” This is often used as a proof text for pretribulationism. However, I don’t think this about the rapture at all. Part of the problem is the chapter breaks and verse numbers that appear in our Bibles today. You would think that because this passage begins with a new chapter that it is an entirely new idea without context. But the fact is that in the original language, there are no chapter breaks or verse numbers. What immediately precedes chapter 14 is Jesus telling Peter that despite his current level of commitment to Jesus that he was going to in fact deny Jesus.
I believe that Jesus is speaking of His own death when He says, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.” When Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus, this is a shocking statement and left alone I think would have left Peter in despair. But instead, Jesus said, “Do not let your heart be troubled.” I believe Jesus was speaking directly to Peter in this verse to specifically comfort him, and not the Apostles in general. As for the place Jesus was going to prepare, remember Peter asked Jesus that what reward they would receive for leaving everything in their former lives to follow Jesus. Jesus promised that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. I believe this is the place Jesus was speaking of. He was confirming the promise that He had previously made.
In recent days, I’ve been trying to unravel the mystery surrounding the rapture of the Church. To be sure this is a tough nut to crack. There are several different theories out there as to the timing of this event. There are certainly scriptures that support all theories. Sure, I believe that true believers will be “protected” from God’s wrath but God never said that we won’t be subjected to Satan’s wrath. In fact, that is already happening to some extent, but nothing compared to what is to come. Therefore, I have come to believe that the church will not be exempt from at least a portion of the traditional 7 year tribulation period, which will begin with a deceitful peace treaty between Israel and the palestinians, confirmed by the antichrist. That event is literally just around the corner. Scripture seems to support that the rapture will occur just prior to God unleashing His wrath. Exactly when God begins to pour out His wrath on the earth is an area of great debate, but I most definitely do not believe that God will put his church through HIS wrath. This could very well be near the end of the 7 year Tribulation period. I do not believe it will be before the Abomination of Desolation, which will occur 3 1/2 years before Jesus returns to set up His millennial kingdom here on earth.
I fear that many Christians in this day and age, especially in this country, will cave in to the pressure to conform in order to sustain their current lifestyles. Many people, and I’m afraid even some who call themselves “Christian”, will not be strong enough to resist the urge to choose this life over eternal life. It will certainly be a test of faith. But there is nothing this world can offer that could trump an eternity with God. That’s the message people need to hear. Especially since the Bible tells us that many will be deceived. I believe God gave us these warnings to help us avoid falling for these cunningly deceptive traps set by Satan. The more that understand, the better prepared we will be to endure the persecution ahead. God told us that “they that understand among the people shall instruct many”.
Most importantly, it would behoove us to get ready for possible persecution and be prepared for the possibility that some of us may have to endure great suffering for our testimony to Christ. That is already occurring in other areas of the world. So in the days ahead, although it may seem to many that evil is winning the battle, God has given us comfort by revealing to us how the story ends. GOOD WILL PREVAIL in the end. Evil will be defeated! This alone should give us the necessary fuel to endure anything that is thrown our way.
Hello all, I would like to lose the complication and say that there are those of us Christians who “know of” Jesus, and there are Christians among us who “know” Jesus. Whether the rapture or the gathering ,or whatever you choose to call it happens before mid or after the great tribulation is not the issue. The issue is where your heart is. If you “know” Jesus, then your eyes are open, and you anticipate his coming right now. Predicting it is useless because Christ said that even He did not know. If he didn’t know, what make anyone think that they could figure it out? Prepare now, and spread the good news to others, now! Don’t get surprised in the middle of your calculations.
Blessings
Stewart, you are presenting a false dilemma argument by saying our attention should be on “knowing God” rather than trying to understand what His word has to say about the present and the future as if a person cannot do both at the same time. I would submit that if your heart is right with God, you’ll be captivated by His word and that includes understanding end-time prophecy. See my article You Should Be Preaching The Gospel.
Technically you make perfect sense brother. As I study the word, I am led by the Holy Spirit. I leave myself open to what he explains to me. “Knowing God” means that a whole world of understanding opens up to a believer. I do not complicate what is so simple. Watch, and be ready, and you will know the time because you are prepared. Move your eyes from the clock to his purpose, which is to complete your conformance to his likeness. This will not be fully complete until you reside with Him in heaven. So, in the mean-time, continue your understanding, but we all need to lighten up on predictions. We already know enough to be ready, so let us be ready 🙂 and give that news to anyone who will listen. The core of His message speaks to the core of our hearts. Jesus spoke as though He might return before the earthly passing of the disciples. What I gather from that is time is short. Even 2000 years is short, since God, lives outside of space and time. When the last gentile “knows God” Christ will return and stop the madness. I pray I will not have to witness this from direct involvement here on earth. However, in any case, I stand ready for Christ. My time is now. My duty is to edify with love and gentleness. I applaud your efforts to do the same. I just think that for many, if we dive too deeply into the minutia, we may miss the the wedding party.
PREACH STEWART! That’s the main thing people are ignoring. What is better? To correct a brother who is wrong in his beliefs about a particular aspect of his faith or to build one another up and do unto others while loving the lord with all our heart. If we love him like we should, then the fruits should be evident. I think a lot of people (christians) are going to be surprised when they see some people in heaven lol. Christ is about love and who knows the heart of man but Christ. It rains on both, but for us who have hope in the Lord….let us be diligent and study the scripture while loosing our “egos” about who is more right.
With all due respect it does make a difference. I do not believe in the pretrib theory. I would rather be ready for some difficult times than have the mindset that I have nothing to worry about. The Bible talks about the apostasy, but never says why it happens. Much speculation on that. I personally think that when things really start to happen during the seven years, that Christians that have had the pretrib rapture force fed to them, are going to question what they have been taught, and conclude they have been mislead, and abandon their faith and the church.
Thanks Joe, I understand your concern about those who might not see what they expected and fall away. However, Jesus told Thomas “Because you have seen me, you believe; blessed are those who have not seen me and yet they believed”. My mention of “Knowing God” is different for each person because we change, but God doesn’t. Our salvation is already known in the eyes of God, because he is omniscient. However, each of us have different experiences that solidify and “finish” our faith. That being said, the only chronology I personally need to know is what has already happened, and what is going to happen. I know where I am going, but I have no idea when I will get there. I know I have been told to “watch”, and the events in Matthew 24:9 are already happening as persecution of Christians increases around the world.
We have also been told more than once in the scripture to wait on the Lord (PS 33:20-22, Isa 40:29-31) to name a couple. A personal relationship with him guarantees being with him in a perpetual state of bliss compared to our current situation. There is no tribulation that one cannot endure when your focus is always on him. Lastly if all of my comments sound silly or uneducated to you or just wishful thinking, here is the most important part my brother. Tomorrow is not promised. To paraphrase James 4:14 “Your life is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away”
Therefore, be ready (NOW) do not wait for proof or interpretation of the proper time for the rapture. Walk in his ways and have that relationship now (not that you don’t) May all of our focus be beyond the end of life as it is and on telling as many others about his promise as we can in the mean time.
Blessings
Joe, If you follow Him then whatever comes you will no be shaken. Whether you gather your gold currency and build that underground bunker, or not. He is your strength, He is your stronghold,, that is why I say it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you remain faithful to Him, as He is most assuredly faithful to you.. Whatever comes… Stay close to Him brother, that is your preparation.
Stewart, I am in a christian truther group…and if you ever want to be added to it, just friend me on FB. (: Blessings… from Texas!
I’m a little concerned why this is becoming such a divisive topic.
Does it matter which we believe?
What will happen will happen.
Let us all join and be prepared in love of our savior.
I personally hear no secret rapture in the gospel accounts of the end times.
It concerns me also that some doctrine invented in the 1800’s has taken such a strong hold.
I think something else is bothering people perhaps that God lets them suffer.
I am glad to suffer for Christ.
Thank You Jesus for letting me suffer to serve You in love and to love people as You have loved me.
I think this has been a very “divisive topic” since the great Brethren split around the mid 19th century!
Most certainly, “What will happen, will happen.” Even unbelievers agree on this!
As to “Does it matter which we believe?” I don’t want to write a lengthy treatise on this, but what I will say to you, is that the Lord warned us against being deceived, Matthew 24.4-5. Mark 13.5, Luke 21.8 etc. Further to this, this novel pre-trib doctrine has given rise to a great many false prophets, teachers, cults and such like.
I ask you, “Does it matter”?
Just Live as if Jesus walked up to yo, you would nt have to be ashamed of your actions. The timing for all of us I yet to be determined. You may find yourself in front of the Lord at any second. Maybe before you finish reading this. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Your timing of when you will see him is already written. Whether you have accepted Christ and belong to Him is already written. Look up!
I was saved in 1971 during the Jesus movement when so many young people gave their hearts to the Lord. I began going to Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, Calif. it was during this time when Hal Lindsey came out with the Late Great Planet Earth. It seemed so right at the time, & everybody & their brother talked about a pre-trib Rapture. As the years went by I began watching the way Christians in mostly every nation around the world suffered persecution, except for the Western nations, the so-called Christian nations. And now we can look at Europe & the way it’s being taken over by Islam, & not only taken over in the sense of a greater population, but where once Christian nations are electing Muslims into government. In England they have forsaken the rule of law, & arrested an outspoken anti-Muslim man named Tommy Robinson, without trial, without a lawyer to represent him. I’m saying this because all this is leading up to the “Great falling away,” apostasy. And then the Word says that the “Man of sin be revealed.” 2 Thes. 2:3. Paul tells us that we will be taken at the last trump… in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Cor. 15:52. These things have to happen before the Rapture comes. Many Christians have been taught that when the Lord Jesus was speaking to the church at Philadelphia, “Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon the whole earth. Rev. 3:10. This does not mean that the Lord will take us out of the world, but watch over us while we go through it. The word “Keep” is tereo in Greek. It means to watch, guard, keeping the eye on (you.) I believe it gives people a sense of false hope by telling them that we won’t see any kind of tribulation in the last days. It seems like an American pipe dream that can give a lot of believers false hope. I lived in Israel, & few Christians there share the feeling that there is going to be a Rapture before any tribulation. Look at the Iraqi & Syrian Christians, & the Christians in Africa, China, North Korea & other places where they have died rather than renounce Jesus Christ. We will never see God’s wrath on the earth, but I believe we will surely see satan’s. Jesus said, “He who will save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.” Matt. 10:39.
Good word brother. The Calvary Chapel movement needs a major course correction or they will suffer the fate of all the denominations that have come before.
On the contrary, if we are really Christians, then we will endure much hardship on this earth before his return. I struggled with addiction that almost killed me multiple times the last 15 years of my life. I put mine, and my family’s life through hell on earth. Felt unworthy of anything, while fully knowing the gospel from my youth. I endured much pain in my life and I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. I am not unfamiliar with hardships or pains on this earth and if I am wrong (which majority of Christianity would say so) then so be it and I will finish the race by faith and hope that I would expect every true believer to do as well. It’s not that pre-tribs think that God will prevent us from suffering lol. Everyone will suffer because of sin, it is inescapable without Christ for us to be renewed and truly saved. We just take the Scriptures we use to defend it in the context that makes the most sense. How could one be surprised of the second coming if we all will be expecting it after the tribulation…one in the field, one is taken. All I usually hear in rebuttals is that we took it out of context or didn’t have the root meanings of the scripture. If I’m wrong then so be it and glory to God in the highest. I think you guys forget that suffering has always been promised before the true tribulation, or you forget we already embraced losses on earth because we are supposed to pick up our cross and follow Him….denying ourselves for His sake.
Scott, this is a nice article, but your reasoning as to why there “cannot” be a Pre-trib rapture because saints before have always suffered is initially flawed. The language of “a loving God would not allow His children to suffer through such a difficult time” is wrong, because that is not at all the issue Even though God did even use cruel nations even to “Judge Israel”, and to chastise her back to God, and even though we see persecution of Saints and Christians all throughout history, as noted at the end of in Hebrews chapter 11 this is totally different from the Tribulation, when the Wrath of God will be directly poured out upon on mankind. God will never pour his direct Judgement’s or his direct Wrath out on the redeemed. He never did it in the Old Testament, and he will never do it in the future either.
We have the examples of this concept, with Noah, Lot, and we see Israel being protected form the plagues the judgement’s God which were poured out on Egypt, as good examples of this principal. And we also have promises in the New Testament that God will never subject the redeemed to His Judgement’s or his direct Wrath. God’s direct Wrath, is not at all the same thing as man persecuting others or trials, or famine or man made wars, or a nation being cruelly judged by another nation.
Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the WRATH OF GOD upon the earth. (caps mine for emphasis)
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Check it out!, Scott! Sadly though once most people are invested in a belief system they never will acknowledge they could be wrong. I hope you are an exception to this rule
Ron, thank you for your comments. Allow me to disagree with you. Firstly, it is pretribbers who make the contention that God does not want His people to suffer during the great tribulation conflating the great tribulation with His wrath. The argument usually goes, “Jesus would not beat His Bride.” Secondly, you’re confusing the great tribulation for the wrath of God. They are not the same thing. And further, the verses that deal with us escaping wrath, in context are referring to the wrath of the final judgment and the lake of fire. See my article on this: Spared From God’s Wrath. The verses that deal with escaping the tribulation infer God giving strength to persevere through, not be physically removed from it. I’m glad you referenced the Exodus account because that actually supports my position. In it God’s people Israel are living in Egypt while God pours out judgment on Egypt yet makes a distinction between the children of Israel and the Egyptians so that the Israelis were untouched. It was not until after God had poured out His plagues on Egypt that he physically removed His people from it. We see this repeated in Rev 9:4.
I appreciate your final sentiment about being invested in a belief system and finding it difficult to admit one could be wrong. That is exactly what happened to me when I realized that pre-tribulationism which I had formerly believed in was not based on sound Biblical exegesis but eisegesis, reading into the text that which is not there. So I guess I am an exception to that rule already.
I appreciate all this discourse. I am trying to sort this all out, but I have a question about the “last trumpet.”
I believe the scripture means what it says in (1 Cor 15:52 & 1 The 4) about the rapture happening at the last Trump.
I believe (1 The 5:9) we won’t suffer the wrath of God as described in the bowl judgments (Rev 16).
I believe we will go through persecution and hardships brought about by the evil of mankind inspired by Satan throughout the seal judgments (Rev 16).
But, the plagues described in the 7 trumpets sound just as bad as God’s wrath in the bowl judgements, so how can the rapture occur at the end of the 7 trumpets if we won’t suffer wrath? This has been bothering me for a long time.
Hello Linda, This is an area where I don’t want to be dogmatic in applying Paul’s rapture verse and reference to the last trump with the seven trumpets of Revelation. The main reason being that Revelation had not been written when Paul spoke of the last trump. In my opinion, the rapture will occur at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns. There are many verses that testify to this. The important thing is to be ready. I don’t mean storing up food. I mean be ready to give your testimony in the most difficult circumstances. And no matter how many so-called Christian teachers say that it is ok to take the mark of the beast, don’t believe it. Be faithful till the end. As for your concern about the wrath of God, remember God poured out His wrath on Egypt while His people were living in the midst of it. So can we.
Certainly, it IS true “that Revelation had not been written when Paul spoke of the last trump.” But if we agree that the written word is inspired, as I am sure you do; 2 Peter 1.20-21 would lead us not to rely upon that “main reason”?
The Second Coming and the rapture are one and the SAME event. As you rightly say, “God poured out His wrath on Egypt while His people were living in the midst of it.”
I think some believers spend too much time worrying about the coming three and a half year great tribulation; Matthew 6.27?
Regardless of one’s belief of where the Rapture takes place, I believe that the 7 Trumpets are the exact same judgments as the 7 Bowl/Vial judgments. The 7th Trumpet seems to include the 2nd coming of Christ to earth. There can be no more plagues after the 7th Trumpet since it definitely includes Armageddon and Christ’s return – Rev. 16:16-21.
So the Bowl plagues are not 7 more plagues after the Trumpets. The Bowls are the same plagues as the Trumpets. I believe the Trumpets are seen more from a heavenly perspective and the Bowls from a more earthly perspective. Trumpet 1 is Bowl 1 and Trumpet 2 is the same as Bowl 2 and so on.
From my study, I think the 7 plagues caused by the Trumpet and Vials is 7 years. The Seals are a separate period of 3 and 1/2 years that leads right up to the Trumpet and Vial judgments. This totals 10 and 1/2 years. All the “Tribulation Martyrs” are dead by the time the Trumpet / Vial judgments commence. These “7 Last Plagues” are partially for the purpose of taking vengeance on the wicked earth who killed these saints. Rev. 16:3-6
I misquoted above when I quoted Rev. 16:16-21. I meant to quote Rev. 10:5-7 and the 7th Trumpet.
Having read articles for both arguments, I was disappointed to see a lack of scripture reference for your article. I know others have mentioned this but I cannot emphasise the importance of scripture. I am still researching this topic so I cannot claim 100% ‘pre’ or ‘post-tribulation’. My research still suggests ‘pre’ but I am not bold enough to claim I definitely know the answer. Although this topic does not affect salvation, the Bible is self-authenticating and infallible and much care must be taken before such bold statements are made that could lead people astray.
Andreas, Providing references in and of itself does not accomplish anything. The arguments that I make are all based on scripture and in some cases I provide references. However, I do not believe that “proof-texting” is an effective way to make a point. Instead, we need to examine scripture in context to understand the intended meaning. Case in point, without inserting a pretrib rapture, read Matthew 24 and see if you see a). a pretrib rapture, b). any indication that Christians should disregard these predictions and warnings because they are not ethnically Jewish.
Scott,
I am glad that I have found your site! My background is similar to yours. I got saved in 1988 just when that book had come out called “88 reasons why the rapture will happen in 1988”.
I was skeptical then even know I was a new Christian has it just didn’t ring true to my heart. After leaving the cavalry Chapel system and studying the Bible on my own I came to the conclusion that there was no pretrade rapture. It is a well entrenched doctrine especially in the Calvary chapel churches.
My Favorite proof text to show that there is no such thing as a pretrip rapture is Revelation 16:15. Just ask yourself the question, “who is the Lord Jesus speaking to in this passage?”h just ask yourself the question, “who is the Lord Jesus speaking to in this passage?“
In this chapter 16, the bowl judgments are being poured out upon the earth and Jesus is speaking between the sixth and the seventh bowl. He is trying to convert the faithful believers that are holding on to Him inspite of what is taking place on the earth. The pre-Tribbers can’t say that he is talking to the church that is about to be rapture because we have already been through the 7 Seals, 6 Trumpets and 6 Bowls and millions have already died.
He’s not just talking to so-called “tribulation saints“ because He is saying He is coming like a thief.
So who is Jesus speaking to? Clearly he is speaking to his bride who has made herself ready and has endured to the end!
Much of this discussion seems to never be centered around the personality and person of God the Father who
The second chapter of 2nd Thessalonians is huge with regards to our being caught up to meet our Lord! Does that chapter take away any pre tribulation rapture theory? Does it at all related to any part of Matthew 24?
Lastly, would the character of God tell Noah to build an arc but then inform him that before completion of the task the heavy rain could begin at any point in the project thus dooming not only the unsaved but those who intended to save?
Troy,
Yes, Noah and his family were protected during the building of the Ark and throughout the pouring rain. They were not taken out completely of the rain but were lifted above the flood and were provided for. This is what will happen to the true believers who are still alive and will pass thru the downpour and be supernaturally protected and provided for.
I actually look forward to having all of this coming upon the earth as perhaps then my unsaved family members and friends who will not open their hearts to Jesus now, may change their mind when they see what is happening.
Yes, it will be extremely difficult for us all but if that is what it takes to get them to open their hearts than so be it!!
Pre-tribulation rapture believers do NOT claim God does not allow the Godly to suffer with the ungodly at times. In fact he does at other times deliver them from judgement given to the ungodly. In 1 Thes 4:15-18 Paul is telling whatever Christians alive at the time of the rapture, who will be experiencing persecution because we are always persecuted, to take comfort because those living at that time will also be transformed at the rapture event. Most of them thought it would occur during their generation, roughly, but they were wrong. Nonetheless, there is NO BASIS for believing it must occur during or at the end of the coming 7-year Great Tribulation just because he tells them this knowledge should give comfort to a Christian. Also, a rapture at the end of the Tribulation gives zero comfort. And, it also makes no sense for the living Christians to be transformed at that start of the Millennial Kingdom. Since earthly persecution’s purpose is to improve, by purging and strengthening, for future years of service, why would God put his people through such difficulty and suffering only to end their human existence the moment it’s completed? That sounds very cruel. This coming Tribulation is for only the ungodly who must be awakened to their standing with God, repent, and refuse the mark (sin). Counting trumpets and declaring you know which ‘last trumpet’ is which, etcetera, is an impossible study.
Ron, your statement is contradictory. On the one hand, you agree that Christian suffering is normal and even beneficial. On the other hand, you state that for God to allow Christian suffering is cruel on His part if it occurs during the tribulation. Which is it? As for the issue of comfort, it is the comfort of being reunited with fellow believers that is the object, not escaping the tribulation. This is clearly evident in the context. There is not one scripture you can cite that declares that the tribulation is reserved for the ungodly alone.
Ron, the tribulation period and the great tribulation is SATAN’S WRATH being unleashed onto the earth in which no one is exempt as cited in Matthew 24:22 and Revelation 13:7. Unless those days be shortened no flesh would be saved, however it is in the midst of the second half of the 7 year period (the Great Tribulation) that God will come back for His people which concludes the opening of the seals and ushers in the bowl and trumpet judgments which is GOD’S WRATH being unleashed upon the earth. There is a distinction between Satan’s Wrath and God’s Wrath which I think many miss. We are exempt, as Christians, from God’s Wrath however no where in scripture does it state that we are exempt from Satan’s Wrath. The entire 7 year period, save for the final year and a half, give or take a few months, is Satan’s wrath via the Antichrist.
A pre-tribulation rapture teaching, although very dangerous to Christianity, is the very teaching that will fulfill bible prophecy, as the end will not come until the great falling away comes first, Matthew 24:10. What is this great falling away? Christians leaving the faith because Christ hasn’t yet come back amidst all the chaos that would be happening in the world at that time and for decades upon decades Christians have been taught that we will be exempt from this chaos.
Scott, thank you for trying to rub balm on the blinded eyes of those who believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. I was one of those … for almost 50 years.
My hunch is that many “pre-Tribbers” are AFRAID to fully exercise their faith in the living, risen Lord Jesus Christ to endure persecution and go through trials and tribulations (2 Thessalonians 1) … thus, they’ll attach themselves to “easy-believism” to avoid such. As another of your readers rightly pointed out in an earlier post, if it’s extra-biblical, then it is of Satan. I choose not to hold onto doctrine that originates from the Evil One. (edited for content)^SP
The rapture is seemingly mid tribulation. You can clearly see that Revelation 7:9 is the rapture. The angels say to not hurt the earth. Remember “multitude” means “church” here. At Revelation 7:9 we are safe from God’s wrath.
Why? Because we would be saved from God’s wrath as read in 1 Thessalonians 5:9–10. Revelation 6:17 says that God’s wrath has now come. A short bit later it talks about people being in front of God in Revelation 7:9.
We will go through the seals which are not God’s wrath. After that though, at least until the 7th seal. The 6th seal is more like an opening day ceremony for lack of better term.
We will go through the first 6 seals, then we will be taken into heaven to be with God. After this happens, God’s wrath comes, that is why it says we aren’t appointed to his wrath. It’s not meant for us, and we won’t experience it.
But, in reality the so-called mid-trib view is IDENTICAL to the pre-trib theory! For both theories assert that a rapture will happen prior to the biblical great tribulation period of three and one half years.
Mid-tribulationism, like pre-tribulationism postulates that the period of great tribulation is seven years, when in fact the Bible teaches no such thing, for this period is well described as “time, times and an half” (three and a half years) Daniel 12.7, Revelation 11.2-3,12.6 & 14. As pre-millenarian’s we all believe that Daniel’s 70th week is yet future, and THIS week is seven years, NOT the great tribulation! that period is the second half thereof.
That should read Revelation 11.2-3 and Revelation 12.6 & 14.
The 2nd Chapter of 2nd Thessalonians speaks in verse 1 of the rapture. Verse 3 says that day won’t come until Antichrist is revealed:
2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Therefore there will be no rapture until the man of sin is revealed. That happens 3 1/2 years into Daniel’s 70the week. A Pre-Trib rapture is impossible according to Scripture.
How did you come to the conclusion that the man of sin is revealed 3.5 years into Daniel’s 70th week?
I think he’s taking it from when ac stops the temple sacrifices and enters into the temple declaring himself to be God. Although it is that which restrains being removed which does the revealing.
So the “Day of the Lord”, mentioned in 2 Th. 2:2 which is mentioned as “that day” in verse 3, doesn’t begin till 3.5 years into Daniel’s 70th week? What about all those judgments in the first half of the week? Is that not part of the Day of the Lord too?
The difference is that preceding the Wrath of God, comes the “beginning of sorrows (Mt 24:8).” After that AC is revealed but 2Thes 2:1 says the rapture cannot take place until AC is revealed.
“that day” is the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. It will not come until; “except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed…” I hope this clears up any confusion.
The Day of the Lord is not the tribulation. The Day of the Lord is the second coming of Christ. All the tribulation is is a time of troubles when He will chastise (not judge) His Church, especially the western Church, for its impiety and irreverence. The judgements upon unbelieving mankind will come after His second coming. The Day of the Lord.
Steve,
What do you mean by “the judgments upon unbelieving mankind will come after the second coming”?
The plagues of Revelation are what I consider to be God’s judgments on unbelieving mankind. All these judgments
comes before and up to the second coming, No?
I do believe that after the second coming there is “the sheep and the goats” judgment of those who survive through the plagues of Revelation.
Is this what you are referring to?
How has the falling away not already happened? Most people live so comfortably right now in the US or the West in general that they do not even have to exemplify their faith like many of the first believers of Christ had to endure. It is more common today that people say they believe in God with their lips, but in reality do not. People have become lovers of themselves, while letting material possessions take the place of God. Husbands and wives are unfaithful and even if not, they often value their spouses more than their faith. Pornography and other abominations abound everywhere. Think how easy it is to commit sexual immorality through technology. Imagine if every human had their iphones, computers, video games taken away how miserable they would be. Money and status have taken over the West and a lot of us have lost our first love and have forgotten about the Sermon On The Mount. A lot of you think that the falling away literally is equated with pre-tribulation rapture and people getting disappointed because it didn’t happen like they expected…on the contrary, it will be those who think they are saved and they are not that will not be raptured. They will think that they are okay and pleasing to the Lord, when in reality they became idolaters and sexually immoral, wickedness, etc. Thinking they can worship Baal and God at the same time with no consequence. The reason they will be tricked is because a lot of proclaimed Christians today keep their idolatry and still worship God thinking that it is permissible because they are not being harshly judged and their lives seem to be great while other leaders or proclaimed Christians are doing the same. These people often abuse grace as well (I was very guilty of this most of my adult life). Which makes perfect sense if you think about it objectively. All people would have to say is “see those weirdos have been taken by aliens (or whatever they explain) and the earth is being cleansed of impure people with toxic faiths that deal in absolute truths. All the while, the people who knew the Word, but didn’t have a relationship with Christ and kept repeatedly sinning willfully will miss the mark. It wasn’t because they didn’t believe in pre-trib, but because their hearts weren’t right. So, I believe (based on the scriptures pertaining to the being caught up) that Paul talks about in the NT (in the context that actually makes sense) that we all go up if we’re saved while those who weren’t truly saved are left behind. If I’m wrong…then so be it and I will pray for us all during that time that we finish the race strong. No more harsh words in these comments plz. Christ is love not division, but I understand he is truth too.
There is falling away. There has always been falling away. But the falling away spoken of in Thessalonians is of a very special kind. First of all—the Verse. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” [Second Thessalonians 2:3]
This is the same falling away that is spoken of in Matthew 24:9-10—Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.”
This is speaking of a universal persecution. It will completely weed out those who were not fully Christians. It has not yet happened.
Everything else you’re saying is utterly true, unfortunately.
And manuy people do believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It will not happen as they expect and yes, they will turn from what the thought was their Faith. This is a little bit of hoistory (there are others). In 1992, a group called Taberah World Mission preached that Jesus was coming back sometime in October of 1992 (at least they wisely didn’t try to pinpoint the day or the hour!). When November of 1992 rolled around they did not sheepishly admit they’d been wrong in their calculations. No, they response was—“GOD LIED TO US.”
But you are right that many who think they are ready will not be. Only, whether right with God oir not that Rapture will not happen until the Day of Christ’s literal Second Coming. There will only be a handful of Christians yet alive at that time, the others having been martyred.
You can drop the fantasy of a whole lot of people suddenly vanishing and people trying to accont for this, maybe blaming aliens. Everybody oin the Earth will know what happened to those people—because the Lord will be returning at that same exact time—AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM.
Now you are right in one thing here and I give you credit for this—people will be raptured, not because they believed in the Rapture, but because they believed in the Lord and sought His grace to live right. There will be no—“Oh, you were righteous but you didn’gt believe in the Pre-Trib so you don’t get to go” nonsense.
If I were you, Marv, I would speak in less general terms. Specifically, you wrote—“Thinking they can worship Baal and God at the same time…” No one worships Baal, not anymore. The great majority of people who do not identify as Christians, do not worship any pagan Gods. Speaking generally like that robs your words of any power they might have. Neither is it a good idea to make words have meanings that they don’t actually have. If a man devotes an inordianant amount of time to taking care of his $30,000 Mazda, it doesn’t mean that he’s worshiping it. He doesn’t get down on his hands and knees, knock his head on the pavement before it and cut a goat’s throat over it, and cry out—“Oh, save me, Mazda, O my God!” If he’s not doing that, he’s not really worshiping it.
But he probably is spending too much time on it. But let’s not mistake a car for an ancient Persian version of God. See things as they are—not as something that has to fit into the limits of your chosen paradigm.
You want no harsh words. You want no division. Christ is love, not division. But as you also point out He is Truth. You might remember that He said He came not to bring peace—but a sword. Love is not love—unless it be yoked with Truth. And if you don’t want harsh words, then don’t give them. You were rather harsh with me, if I remember correctly. You couldn’t refute the Bible’s position of Post-Tribulation Rapture that I speak—and so you went on the attack on me personally.
Hello, Brothers and Sisters.Concerning this, The Holy Spirit, through Paul, has given absolute instruction on this. 1 Corinthians 15 verses 23 and 24 – ‘But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. Then, when Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life. Then the end will come.’ – To argue against this is to argue with God.
I don’t think one need any more clear scripture on the subject than Rev 7:
“a great multitude , which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and before the Lamb clothed with white robes….and one of the elders saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And he said to me. These are they which came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14 s
This is not to be separated from Revelation 6:9-11—
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Revelation 7:9-14 follows this. This great multitude that has come out of Great Tribulation are the “fellowservants” of the martyrs, who had not yet been killed in Revelation 6:11. Now, the time of the Martyrs is done; they have all been slain. All bear upon themselves the white robes. They have not been raptured, but they have all been slain.
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
To properly understand when we go we have to rely on Scripture only, not on the interpretation of Scripture by man. Just study Matthew 24, verse by verse and you will have to conclude there is no pre-trib rapture, indeed, there is no rapture, just the 2nd Coming of Christ AFTER great tribulation, to retrieve His church.
I came to the Faith when I was about 43. As a new believer I became very interested in the Second Advent; naturally! The church that I started fellowshipping in was very lax in doctrine (especially in regards to eschatology). I became pre-trib by default because it seemed that every believer believed that the Lord Jesus could literally Come at any moment-this was rather exiting! As time went on I became aware that there were some Christians who believed and taught that an any moment rapture was not biblical (this seemed to be the minority view). For not a few years I was very indignant towards these people, as they were (so it then seemed to me) somehow depriving me of my blessed hope! I gradually came to the conclusion that there is a “great gulf” between pre-trib, and post-trib; that both cannot be true. There are many so-called theories, the main ones being; pre, mid (though, in reality this position is indistinguishable from pre-trib) pre-wrath, and post-trib. So which is it? Truth is ALWAYS singular, and lies are plural. I kept hearing the oft repeated mantra “there is not one verse in Scripture that teaches a pre-trib rapture” (this vexed me greatly), and that the theology (Dispensationalism) that gave rise to pre-trib doctrine (MacDonald/Irving/Darby/Scofield and the rest) was not taught anywhere by the early Church, the so-called Church fathers, or throughout subsequent history until about 1830 onwards.
I persevered through much Bible study and the study of the Brethren split; Darby/Newton or exclusive/open movements until I had that “light bulb” moment as it were! I could then clearly see through the dross! I could see all at once that pre-trib is not biblical, so if it isn’t taught in Scripture, is it not satanic?
“Three reasons”-how many more? I don’t think we can limit the number!
At the end of the day people will believe what they want to believe. However, God does send “strong delusion” on those who “believed not the truth”.
If any (Christians that is!) that believe the pre-trib delusion are saved in the last Day at all, it will ONLY be through God’s free sovereign electing grace ALONE! (indeed, like ALL of us!!!) Let us thank Him for that? Ever be mindful that the wheat and the tares “both grow together until the harvest” (that is believers!).
If any of us are to suffer tribulation/persecution, let us pray to God in Christ to give us the strength to endure unto death? Let us ever have the spirit of the martyrs?
Is not the doctrine of the Bible to love the lord your god with all your heart and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Pre-trib doesn’t equate with not saved LOL. Thats a particular part of the faith they have. If I believed that there was only post-trib and a pre-trib actually happened I wouldn’t think that the post-trib people wouldn’t go to heaven. That wouldn’t even make sense. What about those who believe in arminian and calvinism or those who believe you have to be baptized and thats the only way to salvation? Those are aspects of the same faith that people differ on. There are plenty of verses to support arminian and calvinism, yet I wouldn’t expect one to be hell bound by thinking that prevenient grace prevented us from being able to backslide unless they were living a debacherous or sinful lifestyle. What about the thief on the cross? He was saved on that moment Christ told him he would be with him in paradise and yet that man lived a life of thievery and just humbled himself and called upon the Lord. It is dangerous to say that people are hell-bound for believing something that you don’t agree with pertaining to contexts of every verse in the scripture. Do you realize how many people miss out the context because they can’t afford to go to Bible college and spend years studying foreign ancient languages in relation to scripture? The point has always been about relationship with Christ, grace, faith, repentence, fruits that are evidence, believing he died and rose again for the remittance of sins.
That is only part of the Doctrine of the Lord. A Jehovah’s Witness might sincerely do the same. But if they are not believing that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, then they’re, to some degree, resisting the Lord—in light of that can it truly be said they’re loving the Lord, their God?
And certainly one might believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and not lose their salvation. But, it is a Red Flag. Acts Chapter 18 tells of Apollos, who “was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.” Now Aquila and Priscilla instructed him in the way of the Lord, more perfectly. What if he had resisted them? It would have shown that he was not so right with the Lord as one might think. It is likewise with someone honestly believing in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, honestly and innocently. But when they are instructed in the Truth and still resist it? When, in fact, they seem as adamant in holding to what they must now (at least a little) be not as sure of, then they are no better than the Jews who, having Jesus in their midst, still resisted the Messiah they so fervently thought they believed in.
It is a matter of spirit, Marv. It is a matter of being born again. It is not in the belief itself—but in how one believes it. This is what separates the belief of one to whom it is a religion—and the one to whom it is a living Faith, being touched by the Living God.
And it is not just finding verses that backup one’s belief—as you pointed out, there are plenty of verses to support different, even diametrically opposed beliefs—single, solitary verses. It’s when you start applying the Three C’s–
[1] Compare
[2] Context
[3] Cross-Reference
—that one or the other is going to be revealed to be the truth. Huh—Psalm 137:9, standing alone and not allowing any other Scripture, could be used as a support for abortion!
If they can’t afford Bible College they’re probably blessed. There’s that much less to corrupt them then. One can usually afford a Bible. And if one can read it, one can study it. Bible College isn’t likely to help much—quite the opposite, in fact. The Scriptures are written simply enough that it’s not that hard to catch the gist of what God is saying. And like I said, it’s a matter of being born of the Spirit. God guides the True Seeker and Believer—Bible College unnecessary.
I, too, was in a group that preached a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I believe it then because I was
[1] Young in the Lord.
[2] It made sense of a kind
[3] I hadn’t yet learned how to search the Scriptures for myself, and
[4] Everyone else was also believing it.
When I started looking for myself and thinking for myself what the Scriptures meant, all the naive assumptions about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture started falling, one by one, like slow-acting dominoes. Yet I still kept open to the possibility—my attitude was, “It may be possible I’ve missed something, some proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture that I’ll find to be irrefutable.” But as more time passed each so-called proof I examined, didn’t pass muster. If they said, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” [Revelation 3:10], I countered with “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” [John 17:15]
Once you’ve run across 99 proofs that 2+2=4, it becomes unlikely in the extreme that the 100th is going to prove that the answer is really 5.
For me the absolute clincher was First Corinthians 15:52—“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” This was held to occur seven years before the Second Coming. Then I looked at Matthew 24:31—“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” There was no doubt this was happening at the Second Coming. How could there be a trumpet blowing at the second Coming, when the Last Trump was supposed to happen seven years before? If the Last Trump happened back then, there could not be a trumpet sounding at the Second Coming.
Unless the two verses spoke of the same exact event. Second Coming and Rapture were essentially one.
It’s right there in the Bible, and yet people weren’t putting two and two together. Perhaps because if they did they could no longer believe that the answer would be five. George Orwell speaks of such blind spots in people—he called it “Double Think,” the ability to hold two directly opposite ideas or concepts in one’s head and not be bothered by the contradictions. 2+2=4. 2+2 =5. No problem.
Truth is always singular, as you say. And Truth Cannot Contradict Truth. “Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.” [Ayn Rand]
And you have hit on it—God does indeed send strong delusion on those who fail to receive the Love of the Truth. They are like the roadside where the Seed of the Word of God falls. It can’t enter into the hard packed earth and so the Devil takes it away. Many people take the definition of Faith in Hebrews 11:1 to mean it becomes real because you believe it. “Conviction,” many contemporary translations render it. But the King James puts it—“Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith is substance and evidence. It is God’s proving Himself to you. It is not you trying to drum up certainty, in the face of fear that the thing you want to believe may not after all, exist.
One of the so-called proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the idea that the Holy Ghost is the “restrainer” of Second Thessalonians 2:6-7—“And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” The idea is, of course that if the Holy Ghost is taken away then the Christians go with it. Anyone who comes to the Lord during the Tribulation will have to do so without the help of God’s Holy Spirit.
But without the Holy Ghost no one could come to the Lord in the first place! And to the many who believe they “know” what withholds the Antichrist—you actually don’t. Belief is not knowledge and certainty. The many different theories about the identity of the Restrainer are, at best, guesses. Though I do believe there are enough clues to determine exactly what this restrainer is. But it is definitely not the Holy Ghost!
God bless you, and it is obvious He already has, giving you a mind to study the Scriptures for yourself, and a heart open to find out what His Truth is, and, like King Jehoshaphat, in First Kings Chapter 22, you are not ready to accept a false doctrine, simply because 400 false prophets assert that it is so. Like the king, you, too will say—“Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?”
So…it is NOT the Holy Spirit as “restrained”.
Jesus said no one….not even He knows the time of His return.
As we know by scripture EXACTLY how long it is until His return after the tribulation…explain that to me PLEASE!
We have absolutely NO clue as to His return….if indeed His first return is at the end of what we absolutely know for time and length…how can that be possible?
No, Greg, the Holy Spirit is not the Restrainer in Second Thessalonians 2:6-7—“And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.” And it’s the “Restrainer,” one who restrains—not the “Restrained.”
Spend more time on reading carefully, rather than venting your vitriol. No one here has said they knew the Date of Jesus’ Second Coming. In fact, nothing you’ve written here makes any cognitive sense. Explain that to you? First frame your question so that it is comprehensible. I mean, I don’t really see the connection you’re making with “not knowing who (or what) the Restrainer is,” with “Exactly how long it is until His return…”
His FIRST return? There is only ONE return.
If I accepted Christ, and the tribulation began in my life time, it makes no sense I’d have to accept Christ again, and not take the mark of the beast, I’m already saved ,it’s a gift. It also becomes works, not taking the mark. For post tribe people the world is set up different, and taking the mark is a work to show who they are loyal to, pre tribe saints are under grace, post tribe are under judgement. It is a different time.
Jim, I think you are majorly confused by man-made theology. Grace does not exempt us from works. Eph 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” 2 Cor 11:3 “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” You’re making things way too complicated.
Ohh ‘The Blessed Hope’ of the Post-Trib view……..there isn’t any.
http://www.thbunker.com
http://www.thbunker.com/last-days–left-behind
Your brother in christ……TICKFORDNZ
P.S We are still on the same team regardless…….
None of this debate is fruitful for the ‘Great Commission’………..Pointless…….
Dear Tick,
Your comments are hypocritical and logically inconsistent. First of all the blessed hope is and always has been the glorious appearing of Jesus, not a secret pretrib rapture. The pretrib idea is absent from the text and it is absent from all but recent history. So if I go through the tribulation, the blessed hope of His appearing will be even more blessed.
Second if you’re wrong with respect to your eschatology and teach others. They are more likely to fall away when the tribulation comes and they have to choose whether or not to take the mark of the beast. So in that sense it is a salvation issue and is not pointless to debate. Teaching sound doctrine and opposing false doctrine is a divine command, and is certainly not fruitless.
Scott-Your thoughts on Revelation 3 vs 10.
This verse does not say that the Church will be merely kept safe during the trial, but it will be kept from the very hour of trial, that is, from the very time of it. This requires a removal before the Tribulation ever occurs. If Revelation Rev. 3:10+ means that the Church will be kept safe during the Tribulation, then something goes terribly wrong. Throughout the Tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale (Rev. Rev. 6:9-11+; Rev. 11:7+; Rev. 12:11+; Rev. 13:7+, Rev. 13:15+; Rev. 14:13+; Rev. 17:6+; Rev. 18:24+). If these saints are Church saints, they are not being kept safe and Revelation Rev. 3:10+ is meaningless. Only if Church saints and Tribulation saints are kept distinct does the promise of Revelation Rev. 3:10+ make any sense.
Hello Tick, rather that dealing with the points I made, you have instead introduced another point of contention which I have already dealt with in my articles. If this is a fruitless and pointless topic as you have previously stated, then why do you continue to argue?
Scott …..You ‘crack me up’……..you’d make a good politician.I’ll leave you too it.
I’m “cracking you up” for pointing out your contradictory statements?
You are ‘Priceless’……All the best….Look for you in heaven mate !
Mr Scott, does this help?:
Rev. 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
That promise of the Lord is sure. However, is “keep thee from” a promise to “take them out of the world”? Consider that the Lord used virtually identical language in his prayer:
(John 17:15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Clearly, “keep them from” (John 17:15) does NOT mean “take them out of the world.” So why would “keep thee from” (Rev. 3:10) mean “take them out of the world”? It doesn’t. Albert Barnes understood it correctly:
“I also will keep thee – That is, I will so keep you that you shall not sink under the trials which will prove a severe temptation to many. This does not mean that they would be actually kept from calamity of all kinds, but that they would be kept from the temptation of apostasy in calamity. He would give them grace to bear up under trials with a Christian spirit, and in such a manner that their salvation should not be endangered.
From the hour of temptation – The season; the time; the period of temptation. You shall be so kept that what will prove to be a time of temptation to so many, shall not endanger your salvation. Though others fall, you shall not; though you may be afflicted with others, yet you shall have grace to sustain you.” (From Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible)
After making the Rev. 3:10 promise, Jesus went on to say:
(Rev. 3:12) Him that OVERCOMETH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
(“And he shall go no more out.” Compare with Rev. 7:15)
Him that OVERCOMETH? Did he not just promise them that he would “keep them from” the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth? If he meant by that that he would “take them out of the world,” why would he then go on to plainly indicate that the promise is dependent upon them OVERCOMING something? Think about it…
Femi, good logic, well-reasoned argument, proper exegesis of scripture. Keep fighting the good fight.
Here are my thoughts. Since the letter was written to a church in the first century, what meaning did “the hour of temptation” have for them? Was it referring to an event that would not occur for centuries? And if this is in fact a reference to a future tribulation, which it is not, then ALL of the churches were kept from the hour, whether they overcame or not.
The hour of temptation has absolutely nothing to do with THE tribulation. They are not even the same word. Temptation in the Greek is “peirasmos” and it means “a trial, a proving, a test of man’s fidelity.” The word “tribulation” is the word “thlipsis” and it means “oppression, affliction, distress, persecution.” Nor is the tribulation the wrath of God. The wrath of God will poured our on those who put the Church through great tribulation.
“Because you have kept the word of my patience…” Patience in the Greek is the word “hypomone” and means ” steadfastness, consistency, endurance, to wait patiently.”
During Jesus’ hour of temptation in the Garden, Jesus urged His disciples to “watch and pray,” lest they fall into temptation. Of course, they fell asleep, and when the hour came, Peter denied the Lord and the rest fled in fear. Just a few hours earlier, Peter, in his pride and self-sufficiency, boasted that he would never deny Jesus, that he would go to prison and even die with Him. Satan had ask to sift him as wheat, and Jesus prayed that his faith not fail.
God uses Satan to sift us. It is through trials, tribulations, and persecutions that our faith is tested, and the chaff (pride) is removed. James tells us to consider it pure joy when we face trials of many kinds because the testing of our faith develops perseverance, that the trying (“peirazo”) of our faith produces patience (“hypomone”), and when we have stood the test, we shall receive the crown of life which God promised to those who love Him. This is the same crown which is promised to the Philadelphians who overcome. “See to it that no man takes your crown.”
In I Corinthians, Paul warns, “Wherefore, let him who think he stands take heed lest he fall.” Paul tells us that there is no temptation but that which is common to man. It comes upon the world earth, to test those who live on the earth. But God is faithful, and will not let us be tempted beyond that which we can bear.
Peter tells us “we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through many temptations (“peirasmos”), that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ…”
It is those whose faith has been tested through manifold temptations, that will be kept from the hour of temptation. Why? Not because they will be removed from the earth, but because they have stood the test, and their faith has been made perfect.
As for the saints not being kept safe, you have no idea what it means to be safe. Those who are saved are safe no matter what happens. We are safe because we are in Christ, the Ark. PreTribbers are obsessed with saving their flesh. But the New Testament repeatedly teaches that the flesh counts for nothing. If this eternal tabernacle is destroyed, we have an eternal home in the heavens. Fear not him who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Neither death nor life nor anything else in all creation can separate us from the love that is in Christ.
How are we saved from God’s wrath? By being buried with Christ in baptism and raise with Him. In fact, the Flood of Noah represents baptism that saves us. We are already safe, because we have died with Christ. When Jesus took the wrath of God on the cross, we were in Him. And we have been raised up and are now seated with Him in the heavenly places. To be saved is to be safe.
Peter is a type of the end time Church. The Bride will enter into great tribulation in order to be tested and purified and made ready for her Husband. Satan will seek to snatch the Word from out hearts through persecution, the worries of life, money, and sin. But Jesus has prayed that our faith not fail. He has prayed, not that we be removed from the temptation, but that the Father would keep us from (“tereo ek” to guard) the evil one.
“But on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the WORD, KEEP IT, and bring forth fruit with PATIENCE.”
“And you shall be betrayed…and some of you they shall cause to be put to death, and you shall be hated of all men for My Name’s sake, but there shall not a hair on your head perish. In your PATIENCE you shall posses your souls…And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkeness, and the cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares, for it shall come on all them that dwell on the face of the earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape out of these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE the Son of Man.”
“After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude…STOOD BEFORE the throne and BEFORE the Lamb…these are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
“And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also, knowing that tribulation works PATIENCE, and patience, experience, and experience, hope…”
“…remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOR OF LOVE, and PATIENCE of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God the Father, so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your PATIENCE and FAITH in all your PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATION that you endure…”
“And we desire that every one of your do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end, that you be not slothful, but followers of them who through FAITH and PATIENCE inherit the promises…for you have need of PATIENCE, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.”
“Therefore, seeing also that we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses…let us run the race that is set before us with PATIENCE…”
“Knowing this, that the TRIAL of your FAITH works PATIENCE, but let PATIENCE have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete not lacking anything.”
“I John, who am also your BROTHER and COMPANION in TRIBULATION, and in the Kingdom and PATIENCE of Jesus Christ, was in the Isle of Patmos for the WORD OF GOD and for the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ.”
“Unto the church at Ephasus write…I know your WORKS and your LABOR, and your PATIENCE…and you have borne, and have PATIENCE, and for My Name’s sake have labored and have not fainted…”
“And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write…I know your WORKS and your charity and service, and faith, and your PATIENCE…”
“And to the angle of the church in Philadelphia write…because you have kept the WORD of MY PATIENCE, I also will keep you from (“guard you from”) The hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world…”
“And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the Altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the WORD OF GOD, and for the TESTIMONY they held…it was given white robes unto every one of them, and it was said to them, that they should rest yet a little season, until their fellow servants also, and their BRETHREN, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled.”
“And it was given him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues and nations…Here is the PATIENCE and the FAITH of the saints.”
“..if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God…Here is the PATIENCE of the saints; here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and the FAITH of Jesus…blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth; yea, says the Spirit, that they may REST from their LABORS, and their WORKS do follow them.”
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them; and I saw the SOULS of them that were beheaded FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, and FOR THE WORD OF GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands, and they LIVED (“zao”) and reigned with Christ a thousand years….”
Throughout the New Testament we are told the it is “through much tribulation that we enter the Kingdom.” Jesus said that prior to His coming, there would be great tribulation consisting of persecutions and temptations, and that we are to watch and pray, lest these become a snare. The book of Revelation is not a chronological roadmap of the end times. It is an apocalyptic vision of an epic battle between earthly Babylon and heavenly Jerusalem. And those who understand the paradox of our faith, we overcome by dying, in the same way that Jesus overcame.
Most Christians have no understanding of what salvation means. Life comes from death. In Christ, we died are our lives are now hid in God.
Sadly, there are many Christians who insist that God would never harm His Bride, that He would never allow her to pass through judgment.
Peter tells us that the Flood represents baptism that saves us. We have been crucified with Christ, and no longer live…it is Christ that lives in us. He is our LIFE. Our flesh is dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of righteousness. That righteousness belongs to Christ, and is ours by faith. It is the same faith that made Abraham righteous.
Now the PreTrib rapture is rooted in Dispensationalism, which teaches that God has two people, and earthly and a heavenly, Israel and the Church. There are two Gospels, they say. However, the Bible teaches that there is ONE eternal Gospel.
“Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, and of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us the GOSPEL was preached, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM (those who came out of Egypt with Moses and died in the Wilderness), but the WORD preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which believe do enter that rest…”
“And Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, preached the GOSPEL beforehand, saying, In your Seed (Christ) all nations shall be blessed. So then, they which are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
Now, in Galatians, Paul seems to be speaking directly to this false doctrine. PreTribbers claim that the Church is removed from the earth during the events in the book of Revelation. They say a different Gospel is preached to Israel during this time, the Gospel of the Kingdom. What is interesting is, an angel is seen flying in the midst of the heavens, having the eternal Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. Now PreTribbers cannot admit that this Gospel is the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul, because it would mean the so-called “age of grace” would not have ended with a rapture. Paul speaks to PreTribbers when he says, “But though we, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL than THAT WHICH WE PREACHED unto you, let him be accursed.” This angel must, therefore, be preaching the same Gospel that Paul preached, the Gospel of Grace through faith. But why would he preach the Gospel of Grace if the Church Age had ended with a PreTrib rapture? Hmmm.
I would just like to comment on your last point. I am a Pre-Tribber, as you put it. But I don’t believe the church/gospel age ends at the Rapture. Like you said, the gospel continues to be preached during the time of tribulation of the saints, mostly by the heavenly preachers/angel(s).
Jesus taught this too in the Olivet Discourse without giving a time table or saying who does the preaching. But we are told elsewhere that this is a 3.5 year period and angels preach the gospel. I believe this time to be the same time the seals are being opened in heaven. When the 7th seal opens the church age ends, and the Trumpet and Vial judgments begins the wrath of God and avenges the blood of the tribulation martyrs. This period is an additional 7 years (Daniel’s 70th Week), IMO. I believe there is 10.5 years between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
Beautiful! Absolutely devine. We have to be able to articulate to ourselves and to others WHO Christ is and what HE accomplished on the cross. I ask myself regarding these debates, “how does this affect my salvation, my faith, my sanctification?” “O may the Lord give you sincerity, constancy, and firmness; and in no day, however evil, may you be led to turn aside. (Charles Spurgeon)
In order to understand the book of Revelation, se need to know the Bible. John uses symbols which are found throughout the rest of the Bible, and allusions to Old Testament passages. The book of Revelation is the exodus of God,s peopel. The exodus of Israel was a type and shadow. The seals represent the suffering and hardship of Egypt, a symbol of this world. God poured pur judgments and plagues on Egypt, ten of them. The first three affected Israel. The represent the three trumpet woes. The last seven plagues represent the seven bowls of wrath poured out on the world, and just as Israel was kept safe in behind their blood covered doorways (or Noah inside his pitch covered Ark, Lot in his house, and Rahab in the wall) so we will be kept safe in Christ and these plagues will not touch us. The last plague represent the passing through the sea. The Church will be raptured on the same day that Babylon falls, just as Israel passed through the waters on the same day that Pharaoh and his armies were drowned, Lot fled Sodom on the day it rained fire,and Rahab was taken out of Jericho on the day the walls fell and the city was burned. The two witnesses who prophecy symbolize the witnessing church, those who carry the testimony of Jesus, for the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. Pretribbers claim that the Church is mot mentioned throughout most of Revelation, but the Church is on every page. The firstfruit Israelites, the grafted in multitude of Gentiles, the two witness (Smyrna and Philadelphia who represent the dead in Christ and those who remain alive), the martyrs under the altar, the patient saints, those who refuse the beast, his mark and the number of his name, the new Jerusalem, the armies of heaven the bride, etc.
You keep saying it’s absent when it isn’t. You’re interpretation is what guides your views.
Hello Marv, yes, I’m saying the idea that Jesus is coming back twice, once before the tribulation and again after the tribulation is an idea that is absent from the scripture. Jesus is only coming back once, and the scriptures that speak to the subject of order and timing place that singular event at the end of the tribulation. That is not merely a matter of opinion, it is a fact. You say the pretrib rapture is in the scripture, then prove it. And do so without relying on types, shadows, and wedding feast analogies. Do so with explicit statements. You can’t because there aren’t any. Whereas, the idea that Jesus is returning once at the end of the tribulation is explicitly stated in many places.
I love the quote above that the Lord will hide us from the hour of His indignation. Also Revelation 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
I love that quote too, however for different reasons. I see it as a promise give us the strength we need to endure the tribulation. The Greek supports that view. See Proof Text #4 in Six Pre-Tribulational Arguments Refuted.
I think that Matt.24:29-51 tells of the Tribulation and the Lords wrath , also the church(the saved in Christ) will go through the tribulation. and their Faith be tested. There is no secret coming of Christ for the church so it does not get tested, there is the second coming of Christ , but it will be during the Great tribulation time , and if the days were not shortened , even the elect would not survive. .
Thank you for your website. I miss Dr. Walter Martin. I have
never accepted the pre-trib rapture doctrine. Although, it
is NOT popular in the church today. Attending a Baptist
church, my husband & I have to keep silent regarding our
stance because they become angry if one “goes there.”
Continued Blessings –
Until Jesus Returns,
Sister Margaret
Hi Margaret,
I encourage you to be bold and not let your voice be silenced in your church. God may not call you to speak to thousands, but these truths are worthy to be shared with the brothers and sisters God has placed around you. As for myself, I attend a non-denominational church that has Pre-Tribulation Rapture in their doctrinal statement. I was quiet for years, especially because I was young, but no more. I will keep opening my mouth (in appropriate ways) until they either 1) they change their doctrine, 2) they ask me to leave the church, or 3) God compels me to go elsewhere.
Why on earth do you stay in a church whose doctrine you disagree with, and speak out against it every chance you get? You’ve said this belief is clearly written in the doctrinal statement of the church, so why did you choose to become a part of it? You’re just a troublemaker there amongst that group of believers! I would make sure that you were told to leave my church. Go find a group of like-minded Believers and stop your divisive ways among this group of Christians. What you’re doing is not of the Lord!
Rebecca, I could not disagree with you more. Annette needs to seek the Lord’s will in this situation. No Church is perfect, just read Revelation 2-3. While you’re at it, read Paul’s letters to the Churches. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.” 2 Tim 3:16 It may well be God’s will for her to leave and may be His will for her to stay. I do not believe that God wants there to be a Church established to represent every different opinion. To deny someone fellowship over their expressed opinion of the timing of the rapture demonstrates intolerance and a lack of love.
Annette, Keep fighting the good fight and don’t be discouraged by words of Rabshakeh.
Hi my name is Eugene. I am doing a personal study of the Rapture and the Tribulation, and the events which transpire afterwards. Here’s a sneak preview.
The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is before the Tribulation. By the grace of God I have seen it in the Word, and I would like to share it with you. I will begin with an Old Testament Scripture (Isaiah 26:19-21) as a foundation to prove this fact, and as we go along I will be comparing Scripture with Scripture. We may get off of the subject from time to time, because the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture, the Tribulation, the day of the Lord’s wrath, and so on, are [sometimes] found in the same passages, but I will try to keep this short and simple, and strictly on the Word. Let’s see Isaiah 26:19-21.
“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.” (Isaiah 26:19)a
The first prophecy quoted above was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead and many of the saints which slept arose with Him. See Matthew 27:50-53.
“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED; AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHICH SLEPT AROSE, AND CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” (Matthew 27:50-53)
Isaiah 26:19 a was clearly fulfilled in Matthew 27:50-53.
The second prophecy quoted below is in the future and will be fulfilled at the Rapture. Since the first part of Isaiah’s prophecy was an actual event which took place, we can be certain that the following verses are prophecy and actual events, which will certainly take place as well.
“Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.” (Isaiah 26:19)b
This is another resurrection, and it is the resurrection of the dead in Christ. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-16)
Notice how in Matthew 27:50-53 the Bible records “…and many of the bodies of the saints WHICH SLEPT arose…” And Jesus, when speaking of the death of Lazarus said to the disciples; “…our friend Lazarus SLEEPETH; but I go, that I may AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP.” (John 11:11) Also David speaking of his own resurrection in Psalm 17:15; “As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, WHEN I AWAKE, with thy likeness.” Therefore, Paul in his writings calls the dead in Christ “…them which are ASLEEP… them also which SLEEP… them which are ASLEEP.” Those who die in the Lord ARE asleep. And in Isaiah’s prophecy (speaking of the resurrection of the dead in Christ) God Himself shall call for them which are ASLEEP in Christ to “AWAKE” from sleep. Amen. “AWAKE AND SING, YE THAT DWELL IN THE DUST…and the earth shall cast out the dead.” Isaiah’s prophecy is definitely the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the following verses have to be, and cannot be anything else, but the Rapture.
“Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST.” (Isaiah 26:20)
This is undoubtedly the Rapture. And if you notice, it is BEFORE the Tribulation. “Hide thyself …UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST.” The indignation spoken of here is the Tribulation, and the Rapture is before that.
Eugene, please try not to be overly offended by what I am going to say, although it is blunt and to the point, it is given in a spirit of love in the hope that you will come to your senses regarding the truth of Jesus’ return. Of all the attempts that I have seen to separate the rapture from the 2nd coming from scripture. Yours is probably one of the weakest ones that I have heard. I have said this many times, but it bears repeating.
There are 2 ways to read a text in the Bible. The first is called exegesis: which simply means “to draw out.” It is a process of interpretation that involves understanding the context, history, literary form etc. in order to determine the meaning of a passage of scripture. The second is called eisegesis: which is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one’s own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text.
There is no Biblical or historical justification to separate the rapture from the second coming. Prior to the 1830s no Christians believed or taught it.
You said; “Of all the attempts that I have seen TO SEPARATE THE RAPTURE FROM THE 2ND COMING FROM SCRIPTURE. Yours is probably one of the weakest ones that I have heard.”
Really?
Here’s the part of the passage I quoted where the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation.
Isaiah 26:19-20; “Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.”
Here’s where the Scripture itself separates Christ’s coming after the Tribulation (the day of the Lord’s wrath) from the Rapture, which is before the Tribulation.
Isaiah 26:21; “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:”
Isaiah 26:21 is when Christ returns after the Tribulation. It is the day of the Lord’s wrath. See Isaiah 13:9-13.
Isaiah 13:9-13; “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. AND I WILL PUNISH THE WORLD FOR THEIR EVIL, AND THE WICKED FOR THEIR INIQUITY, and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, IN THE WRATH OF THE LORD OF HOSTS, AND IN THE DAY OF HIS FIERCE ANGER.”
You said; “There are 2 ways to read a text in the Bible. The first is called exegesis: which simply means “to draw out.” It is a process of interpretation that involves understanding the context, history, literary form etc. in order to determine the meaning of a passage of scripture. The second is called eisegesis: which is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one’s own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text.”
Do you mind applying YOUR “exegesis” and “eisegesis” to the passages I quoted above so I can know exactly what it teaches? Because as far as I can see your whole ministry has been refuted by these few verses.
ok, Eugene…
This passage is written by Isaiah, an Israelite. He says, Come MY people, enter into thy chambers…until His wrath is past.”
Isaiah’s people are Israel.
If this is a reference to the rapture, then Israel is rapturedalpng with the Church. But according to Pretribbers Israel does not get raptured, but is left behind to face the wrath of God. So what is it? Is Israel in the wedding chamber, or is Israel on earth being punished?
And if Jesus is in the wedding chamber with His Bride, how can He, at the same time, be out of His place punishing the earth?
toddott,
You have very clearly enunciated the fact that believing OT Israelite’s will be delivered at exactly the SAME time as believing NT Israelite’s and Gentile’s alike!
Yet the (arrogance?) of much of professing Christianity “boasts against the branches” Romans 11.18!
It is simply incredulous, is it not, that these people believe they will be enjoying a party upstairs at the same time Antichrist is doing his worst down below?
Scott, that sounds like what I have heard David Pawson say. He has an EXCELLENT hour long explanation of pre and post trib rapture. He does not believe in pre trib rapture.
http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/revelation-riddle Take that link and go down to “Will Christians escape by secret rapture?” Probably the best explanation out there on this subject.
Thank you. I have never understood how believers can accept this idea that they are going to be able to just completely escape taking up their cross or be subject to suffering for HIS namesake.
At the ascension of Jesus, the angel said that he was coming back….not half way back and leaving again to then return some time afterward.
When Jesus comes back He is coming ALL THE WAY back and at that time we who are alive and REMAIN shall meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with him. We will meet him as he is coming back to set up His Kingdom.
We Christians need to quite wasting our time and faith ignoring the signs because we think we are going to be gone anyway. The signs are for us to prepare ourselves for what is coming. Like Joseph warned Pharaoh. We need to be saving, storing, and preparing during the plentiful years to better survive the years of want and suffering. Not hiding our heads in the sand…just to be “…Caught unawares…”
So we go up into the air then straight back down again and into the 1000 year Kingdom – yep very good!!
Just wondering where the church is after Revelation 3. The word church is mentioned 20 times in Revelation, 19 of those in Rev Ch 1- 3.
After that there is no mention at all.
Rev 19:11 – 21 is the text on the Lord’s 2nd coming yet there is NO mention of believers being caught up to meet Him as he returns to earth.
On the contrary it mentions a multitude of bodies coming down with Him (v14)
Jude 1:14 – And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Who are these saints if believers haven’t been resurrected or are still on earth?
Doug, all of the objections you raised I have dealt with in other posts. However, you have not made a cogent point against anything that I have made on this post. With respect to where the Church is found in the book of Revelation, I deal with this in the Rapture Quiz.
Doug said; “Just wondering where the church is after Revelation 3. The word church is mentioned 20 times in Revelation, 19 of those in Rev Ch 1- 3.
After that there is no mention at all.”
Doug, the Church IS mentioned again in the Book of Revelation, and it is just before Christ returns to the earth after the Tribulation. See Revelation 19:6-9.
Revelation 19:6-9; “And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and HIS WIFE hath made HERSELF ready. And to HER was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are THEY which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”
There’s the Church at the Marriage Supper. Now how did the Bride get there? SHE WAS RAPTURED TO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. And when Jesus returns to the earth after the Tribulation, SHE IS NOT WITH HIM.
Doug said; “Rev 19:11 – 21 is the text on the Lord’s 2nd coming yet there is NO mention of believers being caught up to meet Him as he returns to earth.
On the contrary it mentions a multitude of bodies coming down with Him (v14)”
Revelation 19:11-21; “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM ON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Doug asked; “Who are these saints if believers haven’t been resurrected or are still on earth?”
These armies which were in heaven are not the Bride Doug. Remember? The Bride is at the Marriage Supper when Jesus returns after the Tribulation. (Revelation 19:6-11) so who are these armies? These are the Lord’s mighty angels. See 2 Thessalonians 1:3-8.
2 Thessalonians 1:3-8; “We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
See brother? And where will the Bride be during the Tribulation? And when Jesus returns with his mighty angels to destroy the antichrist and his armies after the Tribulation? RESTING AT THE MARRIAGE SUPPER. That’s what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 is all about.
“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense TRIBULATION (GREAT TRIBULATION) to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled REST WITH US,”
Lemme just stop here. See what God will recompense the wicked with? TRIBULATION. And what will we be doing while the Tribulation is going on here on earth? RESTING WITH ALL THE SAINTS. Resting where? To where we go after the Rapture. The marriage Supper. (Revelation 19:6-9)
And we will still be at the Marriage Supper resting “…WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel…” (Revelation 19:11-21) Because Christ would never ever take His Wife to fight the battle of Armageddon. He has His mighty angels for that.
Good day and may God richly bless each and every one of you. Amen. In my last answer, I must admit that I was rather eager to express my beliefs, and just took what I ‘thought’ I know about the subject, put some Scriptures together, and then put it out there. But after giving this some serious thought, I realized that the Rapture is no small subject, and requires careful study and attention, and most importantly, it requires a revelation by the Spirit of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God…..For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1Corinthians2:11-13,16) Now I pray; “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto YOU the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: The eyes of YOUR understanding being enlightened; that YE may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to US-WARD who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the Church, Which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.” (Ephesians1:17-23) In order for us to even begin to understand these final stages of the great plan of Salvation, which are about to transpire on earth (including the Rapture, the Great Tribulation, the Salvation of the 144,000 Jews, the Total Annihilation of all things on earth, the Millennial reign of Christ, the White Throne Judgment, the Lake of Fire, thereafter, Eternity) we need to diligently search the Scriptures for whatever information is written concerning these great events, then positionally place each event (or those in question) correctly within it’s time frame, according to the Word of God. However, if we misinterpret, mislocate, or mishandle the Scriptures in any way, we will certainly get the picture all mixed up, and we will make Scripture contradict Scripture, which is totally impossible. SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE. Man, in his earthly wisdom (which is foolishness with God. (1Corinthians3:19) and in his own understanding, makes the contradiction. In 2Timothy2:15 the apostle Paul exhorts; “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of Truth.” We need to rightly divide the Word of God and allow Scripture to support Scripture. SCRIPTURE MUST SUPPORT SCRIPTURE. Let’s see about that in Isaiah28:10; “FOR PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, precept upon precept; LINE UPON LINE, line upon line; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE.” The Bible will always run in continuity. From Genesis to Revelation, the Scriptures must line up perfectly together, without any contradictions whatsoever. Now the simplest way forward is to begin with the Scriptures which give the most insight on a subject, then work our way through the Bible, until we come to a conclusive answer as to whether or not the Church will go through the Tribulation. “THE SALVATION OF THE 144 000 JEWS” Now let us open our text at Revelation1:7 for this passage, I believe, will reveal much, and put to silence many different and false interpretations. “Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Jesus is coming. He is coming in clouds of glory as when He was seen upon the Mount of Transfiguration, and His garments were shining as the power of God enfolded Him. And EVERY eye shall see Him. That means this is NOT the Rapture. This is when He comes to take over His rightful place as World Ruler. This is when those who have pierced Him with their creeds and denominational doctrines shall mourn, and all the people shall wail in terror because of Him Who is the Word. This is the revelation story of Zechariah12:9-14. Zechariah prophesied this about 2500 years ago. It is just about to take place. Listen. “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced…” Now, when is the Gospel returning to the Jews? When the day of the Gentiles is finished. (Romans11:25-27) The Gospel is ready to go back to the Jews right now. If I could just tell you something that is about to happen right in this our day. This great thing that is about to happen will carry over to Revelation11 and pick up those two witnesses, those two prophets, Moses and Elijah, turning the Gospel back to the Jews. We’re ready for it. Everything is in order. As the Jews brought the message to the Gentiles, even so the Gentiles will take it right back to the Jews, and the Rapture will come. Now, remember what we have read in Revelation and Zechariah. Both come right after the tribulation. Matthew24:29-31; “Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Do you get it now? Revelation1:7, Zechariah12:9-14, and Matthew24:29-31, are speaking of the exact same event. The Salvation of the Jews when Jesus returns AFTER the Tribulation. Another passage of Scripture to compare with these is Revelation7:1-8; “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand……and all twelve tribes of the children of Israel were sealed twelve thousand.” See? This is when Jesus appears to the Jews. Did you notice what John said; “And AFTER these things?” AFTER which things? (See Revelation6:12-17) At that time it says that God is going to pour out His Spirit upon the house of Israel. It is the same Spirit that was poured upon the Gentiles in their day. “And they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and they shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart…” (Zechariah12:9-14) And each one of the houses apart when He comes in clouds of glory at His Second Coming. Now remember this is His Second Coming to these Jews. When He came the first time they rejected Him as their Messiah. John19:14; “And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him.” Those Jews that pierced Him shall see Him as it says in Zechariah13:6; “And one shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then He shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.” Not only will it be a mournful time for the Jews who rejected Him as Messiah, but it will be a mournful time for those left of the Gentiles who have rejected Him as the Saviour of this day. There’ll be weeping and wailing. Now let us type this all out in Genesis, chapter 45, where Joseph meets his brethren in Egypt and reveals himself to them. Genesis 45:1-7; “Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren. And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard. And Joseph said unto his brethren, I am Joseph; doth my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him; for they were troubled at his presence. And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.” Now doesn’t that compare with Zechariah12:9-14 just beautifully? Putting the two together we are bound to get it exactly right. When Joseph was very young he was hated by his brethren. Why was he hated by his brethren? It was because he was Spiritual. He couldn’t help seeing those visions, nor could he help dreaming dreams and interpreting them. That was in him. He could not display anything else but what was in him. Therefore, when his brothers hated him it was without cause. But he was the beloved of his father. His father was a prophet and understood. That makes a perfect type of Christ. God the Father loved the Son, but the brethren (Scribes and Pharisees) hated Him because He could heal the sick, do miracles and foretell the future, see visions and interpret them. That was no reason to hate Him but they did, and like Joseph’s brethren, they hated Him without a cause. Now remember how those sons of Jacob treated Joseph. They cast him into a pit. They took his coat of many colors that his father had given him and dipped it in blood to make his father think that the boy was killed by some animal. They sold him to some slave traders who took him into Egypt and there he was resold to a general. The general’s wife had him falsely imprisoned, but after some time his ability as a prophet brought him to the attention of Pharaoh and he was exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh with such authority that none could approach Pharaoh unless he came first through Joseph. Now let us examine the life of Joseph while he was in Egypt, for it is here we see him as the perfect type of Christ. While in the house of the general he was falsely accused, punished and imprisoned without a cause, just like they did to Jesus. There in prison he interpreted the dream of the butler and baker who were also prisoners with him. The butler was restored to life, but the other condemned to death. Christ was imprisoned on the cross, forsaken by God and man. On either side of Him was a thief – one died, spiritually, but the other was granted life. And notice, when Jesus was taken off the cross, He was exalted into heaven and now sits at the right hand of the Great Spirit of Jehovah; and no man can come to God except by Him. There is ONE mediator between God and men, and He is all you need. There are no Marys or saints, just Jesus. Keeping on with this type we find in Joseph, notice how that everything he did in Egypt prospered. His first job with the general prospered. Even the jail prospered. When Jesus returns, the desert will blossom as a rose. He is the “Son of Prosperity.” As no age ever prospered as the one under Joseph, so there is a time of such blessing coming on this earth as the world has never known. We can everyone of us sit under our own fig tree and laugh and rejoice and live forever in His presence. In His presence is fulness of joy and on His right hand there are pleasures forever more. Praise God. Now notice, that everywhere Joseph went they sounded a trumpet to announce his arrival. The people would scream, “Bow the knee to Joseph!” No matter what a man was doing, when that trumpet sounded he bowed the knee. He could have been selling something in the street, just reaching out for his money, but he had to stop and bend the knee when that trumpet blew. If he were even a performer or an actor, he would have to stop his act and bow the knee to Joseph when his presence was announced with that trumpet call. And one of these days everything in time will stand still when the trumpet of God shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise and morning will break eternal bright and fair. Everything will bow the knee then, for it is written, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a Name which is above every name; That at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians2:9-11) But notice another glorious revelation in this typing of Joseph. Joseph, while in Egypt, was given a Gentile bride and through her he received a family of two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Joseph asked his father to bless the two boys. He placed them in front of Jacob so that Manasseh, the first-born would be on Jacob’s right and Ephraim to the left. As Jacob was about to bless them he crossed his hands so that the right hand fell upon the younger. Joseph cried out, “Not so, father, this is the first-born to your right.” But Jacob said, “God crossed my hands.” Here in type we see that the blessing which belonged to the first-born (the Jew) was given over to the younger (the Gentile) through the cross (crossed hands) of the Lord Jesus Christ. The blessing comes through the cross. Galatians 3:13-14; “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree; That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” The blessing of Abraham came through the cross to the Gentiles. The Jews rejected the cross; therefore, Jesus got the Gentile bride. Now getting back to the story of Joseph meeting his brethren. You recall that not all the brethren came. Joseph knew that and insisted that all the brethren appear before him, or he could not make himself known unto them. Finally they brought the one that was missing, little Benjamin. It was little Benjamin, the full brother of Joseph, that set his soul on fire. And when our Joseph, even Jesus, will come to the people who have kept the commandments of God and who have gone back to Palestine, His soul will be set on fire. Little Benjamin typifies the 144,000 Israelites from all over the earth who have gone back to Palestine for their redemption. They will be standing there ready to receive Him, Whom to know aright is Life eternal. They will say, “This is our God for Whom we have waited.” Then they will see Him Whom they have pierced. And they will cry out in dismay, “Where did these awful wounds come from? How did it happen?” And they will wail and cry, every family apart, everyone apart in the agony of sorrow. Now where will the Gentile Church be while Jesus is making Himself known to His brethren? Remember that the bride of Joseph with the two children were in the palace, for Joseph had commanded, “Let everyone leave me; put them all out from before me.” So the Gentile bride was hidden in the palace of Joseph. Where will the Gentile Church go in the Rapture? Into the palace. The Bride will be taken off the earth. She will be caught up before the Great Tribulation to meet her Lord in the air. For three and one-half years while the retributive wrath of God is poured out, she will be in the great Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Then will He return, leaving His bride in “His Father’s house” while he makes Himself known to His brethren. At this very time, the antichrist covenant that the Jews have made with Rome will be broken. (Daniel9:27) Rome and her allies then send their troops to destroy all the God-fearing, Word- abiding Jews. But as they come against the city to destroy it, there will appear in the heavens the sign of the coming of the Son of Man with His mighty armies to destroy them who have been destroying the earth. With the enemy repulsed, Jesus then comes and presents Himself to the 144,000. Having seen His mighty acts of salvation, they have come to know His power. But also seeing His wounds and knowing that they had rejected Him even to that moment, causes them to cry out in the agony of terror and fear, even as did their brethren of old when they stood before Joseph, being sore afraid that they would be killed. But as Joseph said, “Don’t be angry with yourselves. It is alright. God was in it all. He did it to preserve life.” Even so will Jesus speak peace and love to them. Why did the Jews reject Jesus? God was in it all. It was the only way that He could bring out the Gentile bride. He died on the cross to preserve the life of the Gentile Church. He died on the cross to preserve the life of the Gentile Church. Now these 144,000 are not in the bride. In Revelation14:1-4 they are called virgins and they follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. The fact that they have not defiled themselves with women shows that they are eunuchs (Matthew19:12) The eunuchs were the keepers of the bridal chambers. They were attendants. Notice that they do not sit in the throne but are before the throne. No, they are not in the bride, but will be in the glorious millennial reign. We then see that when these last of Israel have been joined in love to the Lord, and the enemy has been destroyed, God will prepare His holy mountain, His new Garden of Eden for the bride and His and her attendants for the thousand year honeymoon upon the earth. As Adam and Eve were in the garden and did not finish out the thousand years, now Jesus our last Adam, and His Eve (True Church) will fulfill all the plan of God. Oh, how the Bible repeats itself. The scene of Joseph and his brethren is about to be repeated, for Jesus is coming soon. -End of part 1- “Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; BEFORE the decree bring forth, BEFORE the day pass as the chaff, BEFORE the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, BEFORE the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger. (Zephaniah 2:1-3)
Wow. If I can summarize: You have gone from being a pre-tribulationist to a mid-tribulationist. While I do not agree with that position either, it seems you have made some progress. My advice is to keep reading and try not to get too caught up in trying to interpret types from the Old Testament, but I think you are on the right track. Also unless I’m way off base, it seemed to me from reading your reply that you may be caught up in the “prosperity” gospel. If so, that is another false teaching you should reject.
Your welcome in reference to where does that leave non English speakers? There are KJV translated through out the world in a ton of languages 🙂
And the Holy Ghost can lead an guide a person to understand all that is written in KJV God said do not add or take away from this book. Meaning the Bible. Do some research on other versions. Scarey stuff!!
Hi Wendy,
I have done some research on this and have found that the NASB and ESV are a more literal translation from the Hebrew and Greek. I also have a KJV and some of the words do not agree accurately with the original language. I purchase a Hebrew/Greek Bible and it has been a great help. There is a teaching on the internet by a woman that I can’t recall telling people that most other translations are Luceferian and that many Bible verses were removed. I went through all my Bibles marking the places and later found out this woman was a false teacher. I do not like the NIV because it does remove verses but the other ones like NASB she pointed out were just an updated more literal version from the Hebrew/Greek. King James was an evil man, and It is dangerous to go around with a King James Only ism belief. God preserved His word, and we have the technology and the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls to prove that. Just compare the Word to the original language and be careful who you listen to.
Blessings,
Jenny
Great explanation! My husband and I believe post trib. Have for many years. I could see where people in the comments question your post because you do not put scripture reference per say. But I see a lot of what you post is straight from the KJV. We only use scripture when we explain it to anyone. But in my heart the way you put it is how I feel. I just know that most want to see the actual scripture reference. How can anyone think we won’t go through anything? They were persucuted in the Bible. We are not any greater or better than they were! God wake people up! I believe every word and book in the KJV fron Gen. to Rev. no watered down translation. God Bless
Thank you for your kind words. The reason I don’t offer tons of references is because I want the reader to think about the points being made rather than seeing who can line up the largest number of “proof texts” that they believe supports their position. A careful reading will reveal that my opinions on the subject are all Biblically based.
Just as an aside, I agree there are a lot of watered down Bible translations, but KJV is not the only good one. I personally like it, but prefer to cite NASB for ease of reading. Americans no longer speak the English of Shakespeare and the the average American is lucky to read above the sixth grade level. Besides if KJV is the only good translation, where does that leave non-English speakers?
Firstly let me just say that I am not a Bible student or a scholar etc so please forgive me if my explanation is all over the place. I will not go into great detail and interpret the Scriptures that I have mentioned but I trust that you will take what I am trying to say and compare it with the rest of the Word. God bless. I do not believe that the Bride goes through the tribulation. No. The Bride is in Christ and Christ has already suffered the judgements of God for Her at Calvary. The Bride is filled with His Spirit and “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,” Romans 8:1. I do however believe that the luke warm, denominational, church goer, without the Holy Spirit, does go through the tribulation. Compare the parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 (Keep in mind that Virgin represents a high moral order and Oil represents the Holy Spirit, which only the wise virgins have.) “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” In this parable it is clear that only the wise virgins with the Holy Spirit (they that were ready) went in with Him to the marriage (Rapture) while the unwise virgins with no Oil in their lamps were left out. (Tribulation) In Revelation 7:9-14; “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This group are those unwise virgins which were left behind to with the rest of the world to face the tribulation period of whom it is said in Revelation 22:11; “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” This passage is obviously speaking of the rest of the people on earth (unwise virgin of Matthew 25 included) who were left behind after Jesus had finished His Mediatorial work and raptured the Bride. Now in Matthew 24:36-44; “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” Also in Luke 17:22-37; “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; “But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife.”Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Nobody can deny the fact that in these passages of Scripture our Lord is speaking of the rapture. Jesus read the same Old Testament that we do and He instructed us to compare the coming of the Son of Man (in the rapture) with the days of Noah and Lot. Both Noah and Lot in these instances are a type of the unwise virgin which goes through the tribulation. Enoch (a type of the Bride, the wise virgin) was translated long before the flood waters ever hit the earth and destroyed the wicked. Abraham (a type of the Bride, the wise virgin) was altogether outside of the judgement fire and brimstone that fell on Sodom and destroyed the wicked. As I’ve said before I an not learned though I do believe these few Scriptures and types prove that the Bride goes in the rapture before the tribulation period strikes the earth.
Dear Craig,
I can understand how you came to these erroneous conclusions because I have heard them repeated over and over again by pretrib teachers. Allow me to point out some of the basic fallacies in these interpretations.
You stated that the bride (meaning the Church) does not go through the tribulation because there is no condemnation in Christ. However the “no condemnation” quote that you cite in Romans 8:1 is not referring to the the tribulation, but instead is explaining how walking by faith in Christ frees us from the condemnation that the law places on us when we fail to obey it perfectly.
None of the parables that you cited mention anything about the timing of the rapture having it occur before the tribulation. The point of all those parables is to stay awake, pay attention, do what you’re supposed to do, don’t be caught off-guard, etc. You’re reading more into the text than it is plainly stating, and you are demonstrating this by putting into parenthesis everything that the text does not say. This method of interpretation is called eisegesis.
I’m surprised that you would cite Revelation 7:9-14 to support pre-tribulationism because it clearly refutes the idea. First of all there is nothing to indicate that this represents lukewarm Christians that have repented during the tribulation. Most pretribbers cite this to say that Christians are taken out before the tribulation, but the text clearly states that they were taken out from, not before the tribulation. Saying that this represents the 10 foolish virgins is another example of eisegesis (reading into the text what you already believe in an attempt to substantiate it).
I do agree with you on one point. The Old Testament can give us great insight into what Jesus and the Apostles had to say about the future. But if you are going to use Noah and Lot, consider what happened to both. In Noah’s case there was no great tribulation that preceded God’s judgement. However it did not come without warning. The same can be said about the judgement of God that is yet to come. If there was a tribulation in Noah’s time, it was the flood itself, through which Noah and his family were preserved. When it comes to Sodom, there is no parallel to Abraham being the raptured Church. Instead he disassociated himself from Sodom by not taking the spoils of war from there or settling there. It was Lot who was taken out by the angels right before the total destruction of the city.
Unfortunately pre-tribulationists do not use sound exegetical principals when it comes to understanding the end-times. So as Jesus said “let no one deceive you”. The only thing that makes biblical interpretation difficult is having the wrong presuppositions and biases. Let the word of God speak for itself; simply.
The story of Lot is a picture of the faithful Church who is led by the Two Witnesses out of Babylon, the great city, also called “Sodom and Egypt” just as the wrath of God falls at the Seventh Trumpet. Lot’s wise is a foolish virgin who hasn’t kept the Word as a Lamp into her feet and instead of being an overcomer, is overcome by the world. Sodom is a type of mystery Babylon and the attempts of the men of Sodom to “know” the angels is an attempt to get the Church to commit fornication with the Whore. It is the same with Jericho. The Two Witness lead Rahab, the Gentile Church, out of Jericho just before it is destroyed at the Seventh Trumpet on the Last Day. And Noah is in the Ark, that is, kept safe “in Christ” for seven days before the flood waters are poured out, and then the door is closed. It is the same door that is closed to the foolish virgins. Enoch may or may not be a type of the PreTrib Rapture, but even if he is, notice that the wrath of God doesn’t immediately follow. The wrath of God, the Seven Bowls, symbolized by the flood waters, are poured out after seven days.
PreTribbers fail to understand the significance of the Seventieth Week. What is the purpose of this week? To make an offering for sin and atone for wickedness, etc. Do these things ONLY have to do with Israel or is the Church included? The Church is included, since she is grafted into the Olive Tree. There is no difference for we are all one in Christ.
The thing about types…Paul tells us that “these things happened to Israel as types and warnings for us, the Church, on whom the fulfillment of the ages have come. The types are not about Israel in the flesh. They are about the Church, Israel in the Spirit. There will be not removal of the Church so that God can turn His attention back to Israel. Through the witness of the Church during the Tribulation, a remnant will be saved.
God gave us His Feasts to teach us about His plan of salvation. He fulfilled the spring feasts on the very day they were celebrated. He will do the same with the fall feasts. “After the Tribulation of those days,” on the Feast of Trumpets, at the Seventh Trumpet, the Church will be gathered. This is the Wedding of the Lamb. During the following Days of Awe, the Bowls of God’s wrath will be poured out and Babylon the Whore will be destroyed. Meanwhile, in Heaven, under the Huppah, the Bride will stand naked before her Husband at His Judgement Seat and will receive her rewards, including garments of white linen. On the Day of Atonement, Christ will return with His Bride and the armies of Heaven and will destroy the Beast and His armies at Armageddon saving the remant of Israel who look on Him Whom they had pierced. The Bride and Groom wil then sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the Wedding Feast, the seven day Feast of Tabernacles, while outside the birds of the air celebrate the Great Supper of our God, and feast on those killed at Armageddon.
The Church is NOT in Heaven for seven YEARS during the Tribulation. She is in Heaven seven DAYS, after the Tribulation.
The seven Seals are a prerequisite for God’s judgement and wrath. They give witness to the destruction of the earth and the killing of the saints. They reveal the wrath of Satan and his seed. They must therefore be removed from the Scroll before it can be opened. The Trumpets are not wrath, but chastisment meant to bring the world and the Church to repentance. The tribulation is not the wrath of God, but rather and trial, meant to purify the Church, to remove the chaff, so that her faith will come out as gold tried in the fire. Like the plagues of Egypt, the Church will be protected THROUGH this time. The Trumpets will involve only 1/3 of the earth and only those who have the mark. Amos 8 tells us that it will be a time of famine, not of grain, but of the Word. Because of the falling away of the church, the Gospel will be rare (NOT preached by the 144,000) and many will stagger from sea to sea, but will not find it. Like the foolish virgins, many in the Church will fall away. Satan will snatch the Word from their hearts because of persecution, the cares of life, and the deceitfulness of wealth. For the wise virgins who persevere, the Word will continue to be a Lamp unto their feet, lighting their way through the darkeness of the Tribulation. The foolish who have not hidden the Word in their hearts will run put of faith (which comes by hearing the Word) will be lost forever. Contrary to PreTrib theory, the foolish virgins will probably not get another chance. The door to the Wedding Feast is the same door that was closed on the Ark.
The Day of the Lord is not the same as the Tribulation. Joel tells us that it begins with the darkening of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus says that this happens “after the Tribulation of those days. The Sixth Seal of Revelation, then is the end of the Tribulation, and the wrath of God follows. The Tumpets parallel the Seals and the Bowls are contained within the Seventh Trumpet.
One thing must be understood when it comes to typology. It can never be used AS doctrine. It can only be used to support doctrine which is ALREADY stated in Scripture. For example, Can you prove that Abraham is a type of the Church, or do you just assume this because it supports (or seems to support) your belief? Can you prove the John being caught up in the spirit is a picture of the rapture, or do you make it so because it seems to support the PreTrib Rapture? Can you prove to me from Scripture that the saints and the elect in Revelation are not the Church, or that Matthew 24 is only referring to Jews? (I know you can’t).
There isn’t one verse that supports the PreTrib Rapture. It is based on assumptions, the twisting of the text, the changing of definations and meanings of words, and vague typology, that in most cases prove the opposite.
Sorry, the PreTrib doctrine is a lie from Satan meant to keep the Church from preparing for it’s final test. You better start preparing now, because cramming for the test at the last mintue will make for some sleepy virgins who just might fail the test. (God requires nothing less than 100%). So study to make yourself approved.
Hmmm. There are way too many assumptions here without any Scripture to back them up. All pretribs believe they won’t suffer ever? The Jews in Egypt is a type of the Church’s future, and not the Jews future? The mention of a Trumpet always means the trumpets in Revelation, and not a general calling for assembly?
I don’t think that the fact that some people have told you that we won’t ever suffer as Christians is an adequate #1 reason. It just demonstrates you’re not around very many mature, pretrib believers.
I think it’s more dangerous that you have assumed God lied regarding His promises to Abraham and David in the OT. Not to mention all the prophecies regarding a Great Tribulation for Israel resulting in them mourning for the one who they pierced and a kingdom set up. Those things were promised by God to Israel numerous times. So, did God just kind of say that stuff to fill some pages?
Pretribs interpret the Bible literally: When God says things belong to Israel, they belong to Israel. When God reveals things to the church, it’s the church’s. Makes sense right?
Justin: Thank you for taking the time to reply. You stated that I made too many assumptions without providing scripture to back them up. Having re-read the article I counted 33 appeals to scripture to back up the points I am trying to make.
Secondly you asserted that I assumed that God lied about His promises to Abraham and David. Yet you failed to mention what promises you referred to. To the contrary it is the pre-tribulationist that makes God a liar by falsely predicting the future and ascribing their predictions to the Spirit of God.
You stated that pre-tribulationists interpret the Bible literally. This is a false statement, pre-tribulationists compartmentalize the Bible and then force their interpretations of scripture based on which compartment they have assigned it to. As to the issue of Church vs. Israel, what trumpet is what etc, I refer you to my most recent post.
Scott, instead of listening to people,mlet’s listen to what God says.
” For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Now these things happened to them (ISRAEL) as an example, and they were written for our (THE CHURCH’S) instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
So, yes the Jews in Egypt is a type of the Church’s future. And so is the Jew’s time in Babylon. You see, when God sent Israel to Babylon because of her rebellion and sinfulness, He didn’t exclude the righteous. Daniel and his three friends also went. We are living in the time Paul refers to as the apostasy, the falling away, when the Gospel is quickly being watered down, and perverted and even rejected by many in the Church. The time is coming when God will send the Church into exile to Mystery Babylon. The tares will persecute the faithful saints and falsely accuse them and turn them into the authorities. The Church will be thrown into the firey furnace, but through this fire, our faith will be “as gold tried in the furnace seven times,” and God will bring out a remnant. The entire history of Israel is a picture of the Church.
Now, when you says things belong to Israel, they belong to Israel, does that meant the Seventieth Week has no relevance for the Church, that making an end of sin and transgression and bringing in everlasting righteousness has no meaning for us? I guess that since the Church didn’t exist (according to PreTribbers) until several years after Jesus walked this earth, that His death, burial and resurrection is not for us. Since the sealing up of vision and prophecy and anointing the most holy are only for Israel during the Seventieth Week, I guess the rest is only for Israel, too.
No, the Seventieth Week is for the Church. Not all Israel is Israel, but only those of the faith of Abraham, which includes those who are grafted into the Olive Tree.
Was it not Ruth, a type of the Church, who said to Naomi, a type of Israel, “Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”
So you see Justin, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, but we are one in Christ, “one new man.” There is one body, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. And we will all be tested and though we are “like the sands of the seashore, only a remnant will return.”
As for PreTribbers interpreting the Bible literally…let’s see. Are the seven letters written to the seven churches of Asian minor literally seven church ages. No. An assumption which is never stated or even hinted at in Scripture.
Is John being caught up in the spirit literally the PreTrib rapture? Nope. Another assumption not supported by Scripture.
Is the hour of temptation actually literally seven years long? Nah.
Please look at my above post for more interesting stuff.
And what exactly is a “mature, pretrib believer?” Is that different than a mature posttrib believer?
In all my years of studying these things I’ve never come across anyone who used these 3 so called ‘reasons’ you’ve written about. Most folks I’ve read or interacted with go straight to Scripture.
Scott, Thank you for your comment. However if you do not see my appeal to scripture then you should read the post again.